Advice for new and would-be .500 S&W Magnum shooters...

[MODS: This post contains several video links. They are all relevant to the topic of shooting the S&W .500, but if somehow this post violates the forum's guidelines, just delete it without sending me a nastygram...]

I keep getting emails from people interested in the .500, asking me what to expect from this gun.

I never want to talk down to anyone, but it concerns me that some of you may not realize what you are in for, if you have little to no experience with heavy recoiling magnum revolvers. By "heavy recoiling," I mean something with MORE recoil than a factory .44 magnum round out of a 48 ounce gun. If you've been shooting a 329 with magnum rounds, you can stop reading...

Below is a vid of one of my customers shooting my .500 alongside a 5" full-lug .460. In the .500, he is shooting a 300 grain Hornady factory load going about 2000 FPS. He is an experienced magnum shooter and knows what he's doing. For him, recoil with this load is quite manageable, even one-handed...

YouTube - S&W 500 & 460 Dual-wielding!!!

Below is a guy shooting a factory 3 1/8" barrel (4'' with compensator) .500 with a 700 grain round at 1050 FPS from Ballistic Supply. He has no experience with handguns more powerful than .44 mag, and the heavy recoil startles him. The barrel goes slightly past vertical. BTW the 700 grain bullet likely went unstable in 30-60 feet out of that gun.

http://www.youtube.com/user/1994pears1993#p/a/u/1/fjmtUFrFBc4

Here's a vid in slo-mo of a kid (meaning half my age) shooting one of my guns with a 500 Hornady factory load. He needs a better stance and technique, but it was his first try at the .500, and he didn't drop the gun or let it hit him in the head...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFFMvpsKl90

Next, here's a girl "doubling" a factory 8 3/8" .500. I have personally witnessed this twice with two of my students. The gun recoils enough to compress not only the rubber grip but the palm fat in your hand and push the gun and trigger away from your trigger finger, letting the trigger reset. Your brain is still telling your finger to put pressure on the trigger, and you fire the gun again, usually straight up. Use a firmer grip. Although the gun doubles on her, she maintains her stance and the gun comes nowhere near hitting her. A firmer grip and she'll shoot the gun like a champ.

YouTube - FULL AUTO 500 S&W

When reports of these "doublings" first came out around June of 2003, S&W shot some extreme high speed footage of what happens when the .500 fires. Here's S&W engineer (and chief .500 designer) Brett Curry firing the 500 one-handed. The vid starts just as the primer has ignited the powder. Watch as the gun recoils ALMOST enough to reset the trigger. The gun initially moves straight back, compressing both rubber grip and palm fat. The clip ends before the muzzle even starts to rise. We are looking at about five milliseconds span of time in this clip. Note that he bullet passes the B/C gap at :02 and exits the muzzle at :06.

Here's the shortened and slowed-down section of the S&W vid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s37ZTy4hLUU

And here's the entire original S&W vid that gives an even better view of the trigger almost resetting:

http://www.youtube.com/user/dwebb210#p/a/u/1/q2joba9pbZw

And last of all, here's what happens when someone with no experience with heavy recoil gets turned loose with a .500 by some idiot boyfriend. Note that this girl is about the same size as the young woman in video #4, but her technique is all wrong.

When newbies get excited at seeing the .500 and want to shoot it, here's what I do: A cylinder out of a K22, then a K38 shooting wadcutters, then regular .38s, then a Model 27 with magnums. If they're still in, then a 6 1/2" M29 with 10 Unique/250 Keith. Still game? 25 296/250 Keith. More? 5" .500 with a 550 over a case full of Trail Boss. Still with me? 550 over a case full of 4759 for 1325 FPS. Most women and some men have had enough by then, but a few have gone farther, including one woman who made it all the way to the end, 725s @ 1250. My rule is you can quit at any time, but you can't go up until you finish the cylinder you're on. That's how I do it.

Anyway, here's the vid:

YouTube - Girl pistol whips herself in the face with 500.magnum (fail)

Use a crush grip, extend your arms and lean forward with one foot farther to the rear, and work up to the heaviest loads gradually. Don't EVER shoot this gun with a loose grip and your arms relaxed.

Be careful out there...

Interesting and in my opinion, good advice, however, several of the links didn't work for me and I really wanted to see the Brett Curry video.

I've been shooting the .500s since they came out and love the gun. On the other hand, I've never had someone at the range take me up on an offer to shoot one of mine. And as you know very well, there's a massive range of recoil from light or even "plinking" loads to max loads and when some beginner says they don't recoil heavily, I always suspect a light load. Don

Thanks for posting that, John Ross. I'm with DonD, agree that your advice is very valid, that the 500 can cause injury to the shooter if he/she is either inexperienced (and poorly coached) or complacent.

I likewise could not view three of the links, the second, third and fifth. I'd seen the one of the girl who had the double before. Watching your customer do the two-handed bit was interesting, I noticed that he did the classic counter-balance lean-back rather than take a more aggressive forward-leaning stance, and yet he did not unbalance when shooting. I had a friend who shot one of my 500s a few years back, and I remember him doing that stand-upright-and-lean-back bit. He was a fairly big guy and an experienced shooter, so I had neglected/failed to give him much in the way of coaching other than to say "use a real firm grip and keep some tension in your arms", and when the gun went off he had to take a couple of backward steps to prevent toppling over. No harm done, but it does cause me to think that a forward leaning stance is important with heavy recoiling handguns.

I also think that guys who take their wives/girlfriends to the range, assuming the female is not an experienced shooter, and then hand her something like a 500 to shoot, are probably more responsible for creating gun-hating women than Rosie O'Donnell and Sarah Brady combined. Guys, teach your lady to shoot with a .22. Then move up to a 38 or 9mm. When she gets comfortable with those, maybe she'll want to give your he-man gun a try, in her own good time and after she's learned the fundamentals. If she's at the range with you she likes you already and thinks you're a real macho dude, you don't need to "impress" her in that particular manner.

Am I alone in believing that muscle mass has a whole lot to do with big boomers during recoil? The less muscle mass you have from your upper back and shoulders connecting down to your hands then the worse off you are going to be. Mr. Double Fister there looked pretty bulky and handled them just fine whereas a skinny person doing the same trick I would think would have toppled over on their butt. I guess a large fat guy would have a better footing on the ground over a skinny guy but I still think it is more about muscle mass being able to hold up to the recoil.

Most of the video links don't work anymore. Just a heads up.

Maximumbob54 said:

Am I alone in believing that muscle mass has a whole lot to do with big boomers during recoil? The less muscle mass you have from your upper back and shoulders connecting down to your hands then the worse off you are going to be. Mr. Double Fister there looked pretty bulky and handled them just fine whereas a skinny person doing the same trick I would think would have toppled over on their butt. I guess a large fat guy would have a better footing on the ground over a skinny guy but I still think it is more about muscle mass being able to hold up to the recoil.

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No doubt that muscle-mass has something to do with it. However, my skinny daughter who is 5'7" and weighs 108 has shot my 500 with 440grain maximum loads, and with a proper stance and some coaching she didn't get set-back too far.

Try the links now.

Thanks John,

I'm a big fan of boomers and 44MAG in particular.

Owned a S&W 460V and loved it, a hell of a round and a lot of fun to shoot.

Currently run a 500S&W in a T/C Encore with a 15" barrel.

To be honest (and I may have to hand in my man card because of this), it's more of a cartridge than I like to shoot/handle.

Maybe it's the platform and a S&W Revolver would be easier to shoot but it's very serious business.

Having the biggest and baddest on the block comes at a price gents.

MTKTM said:

I also think that guys who take their wives/girlfriends to the range, assuming the female is not an experienced shooter, and then hand her something like a 500 to shoot, are probably more responsible for creating gun-hating women than Rosie O'Donnell and Sarah Brady combined. Guys, teach your lady to shoot with a .22. Then move up to a 38 or 9mm. When she gets comfortable with those, maybe she'll want to give your he-man gun a try, in her own good time and after she's learned the fundamentals. If she's at the range with you she likes you already and thinks you're a real macho dude, you don't need to "impress" her in that particular manner.

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Agreed, have to be really stupid to think that having the wee scared out of your girl by a hard kicking gun will make her think more highly of you. Don

Well..... I think everyone here agrees a 500 is not a gun for the novice or the occasional shooter. We're also hearing these assertions from a man who created and markets one of the best 500's available today, the John Ross 5" 500's.

The 500's are at the very upper limit of what is useful and applicable to shooting and handgun hunting, IMO, and certainly a caliber where much care and caution is to be used when shooting or re-loading. John Ross should be commended for stressing dangers in this thread as he could easily lose a sale or two because of it.

Danger for the shooter is apparent with this caliber's unanticipated recoil and the extreme noise report in many shooting and hunting situations. The unaware novice, or even those standing close to a 500 being shot could experience irrevocable damage to their hearing in certain conditions. Additionally, detonation problems have also been found with reduced loads when using some popular powders...

I should add here that the John Ross 500, by design, doesn't have a compensator and that is a big issue in reducing the noise report to the shooter.

I love my 6.5 500. But I'm aware the potential dangers associated with this gun are amplified many times over than with lesser calibers..... even the 44Mag or the 454 Casul.

JMHO

I don't think you have to be a behmoth to own and shoot a 500, it really comes down to technique and experience with heavy recoiling guns. I have a John Ross model 500 at my dealer now and my current 500 is a 7.5 PC model. I am 5'9 170lbs and average build. I shoot my 500 with little discomfort and can't wait to get the JR model on the range!

John, this might be off topic a bit but, have you had any feedback on shooting 500 specials in the 500 as far as accuracy is concerned and what velocity is the 500 specials rated at. I bought a couple boxes from my dealer but have yet to shoot any of them yet.

Mule88 said:

John, this might be off topic a bit but, have you had any feedback on shooting 500 specials in the 500 as far as accuracy is concerned and what velocity is the 500 specials rated at. I bought a couple boxes from my dealer but have yet to shoot any of them yet.

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Not off-topic at all. I have fired a few rounds of Cor-Bon .500 Special that Peter Pi gave me, and they are good loads, but I haven't really done any testing at all with the caliber.

Based on the experiences of both the factory and a lot of users with the .460, I'd expect accuracy of the .500 Sp. to be degraded only slightly if at all. Users of scoped 460s off of sandbags are reporting 100 yard groups around 2" with the 460 case and 3" when using 45 Colt brass. 2MOA VS 3MOA is a difference you can't detect when shooting an open-sighted gun offhand.

As a handloader, I prefer to shoot all magnum revolvers with full-length brass to avoid the issue of residue buildup in the chambers, among other things (having to reset my progressive loader, an extra type of brass to deal with, etc.)

The .500 Sp. is an excellent round with a SAAMI spec working pressure of 38,500 PSI VS 60,000 for the mag. The ideal platform for this cartridge would be a shortened X-Frame in both steel and Ti-Scan, as I have urged for over 5 years. Such a gun (with the right barrel contour) would have even better balance than my 5" mag, and would give the kind of ballistics that most 500 mag handloaders are now shooting on a regular basis, i.e. 400-450 grain bullets at 1350-1450 FPS.

All the engineering AND TOOLING for an X-frame with a cylinder 1.900" long has already been done by Brett Curry, including a 7-shot .44 Magnum version in both steel and TiScan, but management at S&W changed and the project got shelved, for reasons that continue to elude me. A 7-shot X-frame .44 mag with a 1.900" cylinder would eat 320 grain loads forever and drive Redhawk sales off a cliff, particularly if the steel gun was also available in a 5-shot .454 Casull and 5-shot .475 Linebaugh.

Early on in the life and history of the 500 Mag, I remember reading an article where Herb Belin, S&Ws revolver manager, commented that they could have made a .70 caliber.

While I really like my 500s, I have no interest in a .70 cal revolver whose power levels were proportionately scaled up from the .500 Mag. Don

DonD said:

Early on in the life and history of the 500 Mag, I remember reading an article where Herb Belin, S&Ws revolver manager commenting that they could have made a .70 caliber.

While I really like my 500s, I have no interest in a .70 cal revolver whose power levels were proportionately scaled up from the .500 Mag. Don

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I have an old handloading book by Phil Sharpe that was owned by my father. It was written prior to WW2, I believe about 1939. The 357 Magnum was, at that time, all the rage and the newest and most powerful handgun round. There are passages in the book about how powerful and dangerous handloading the round is, how it should only be the province of "experts", and that mere mortals should not tread there. They also talk about how the 357 is about the extreme limit of power for a handgun cartridge. Clearly times have changed.

I'm not sure what the top-end limit is. I assume that there must be one, and also tend to agree that the 500 is pretty darned close to it. But who really knows?

When you pull the trigger and it snaps both your wrists you have reached the upper limit.

MTKTM said:

They also talk about how the 357 is about the extreme limit of power for a handgun cartridge. Clearly times have changed.

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Given the guns of that day, with their ridiculous non-ergonomic wooden grips and solid steel backstraps, this was quite correct! The new generation of recoil absorbing grips (Hogue Tamer, Pachmayr), has been a huge leap forward in the technology that facilitates powerful handguns.

A lot of the urban legend that has developed around handgun recoil, is the result of someone handing an unsuspecting noob a powerful handgun and saying "here, give this a try". I have a buddy who is a LEO and has to qualify regularly with his service pistol, but he won't even touch a .44 (an "intermediate" cartridge by today's standards), because of some long past bad experience!

off road said:

Given the guns of that day, with their ridiculous non-ergonomic wooden grips and solid steel backstraps, this was quite correct! The new generation of recoil absorbing grips (Hogue Tamer, Pachmayr), has been a huge leap forward in the technology that facilitates powerful handguns.

A lot of the urban legend that has developed around handgun recoil, is the result of someone handing an unsuspecting noob a powerful handgun and saying "here, give this a try". I have a buddy who is a LEO and has to qualify regularly with his service pistol, but he won't even touch a .44 (an "intermediate" cartridge by today's standards), because of some long past bad experience!

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I'm sure that grips and ergos have something to do with it, but am right now looking at my 629PC 2 5/8" 44 Mag with boot-style grips which expose the entire steel backstrap of the gripframe. I've shot it many times, with full magnum loads.......although confess that I generally wear a glove when I do!!

I think that mindset has a lot to do with it too. Just telling yourself, or having someone tell you "wow this gun is really really really gonna kick!!" is enough to make it really really kick. Kind of like the time when I was in college and we gave a goofy kid who lived in the dorm-room across the hall a shot of tequila, and when he asked for another we grew concerned that he'd get really crazy, so started filling his shot-glass with 7UP, and I swear that he would grimace and lick the salt and bite the lime and say "whoa!!" after each shot, and grew drunker with every one. I think recoil is the same way to some degree, that the idea of it can sometimes make it appear to be different than reality.

I have a 329NG, and I highly recommend the Pachmayr grips that come stock on the NG series! They are very compact, and have a nice thick layer of rubber over the backstrap. Downside is that all that rubber increases the length of reach to the trigger, which might be an issue for those with a short trigger finger.

Clearly, S&W has never really caught on in any big way to how much sense it makes to cover the backstrap with some recoil absorbing rubber. Over at Ruger, after a while they figured this out, and all the current DA revolvers have covered backstraps and everything except the SP now comes from the factory with Hogue Tamers, save for the old school Redhawk.

I emailed S&W to let them know that I'd purchase a 7-shot 44 built on the X-frame. Bonus if it has a Ti Cylinder like the newer 520. Love that 2-piece barrel.