Why replace the springs in a revolver?

nagantino · May 31, 2015

Please forgive the baldness of that question. It's a well trodden Thread path on this and many other Forums and I know it often the negative aspect that gets the attention, but, it seems that replacement springs that ease the action on a revolver, come at a price and I don't mean $'s and cents. Has anyone replaced the main spring and rebound springs without problems eg light primer strikes?
Let me elaborate. I'm waiting on my paper work to clear for a S&W 686. It's a new gun but handling it in the shop, the trigger was a surprise.......heavy and in no way smooth. Buddies recommend a replacement of the main spring and a light rebound spring. Googling the issue does not help because light strikes seem to accompany the procedure. Is this right or do most people not encounter the problem but don't speak up. Also, does changing to Federal primers solve the problem.
I'm aware this is a well covered issue, I've read most of them, but light strikes and replacement springs seem to go together. Or is there a large silent majority of happy shooters out there who have never had a problem?

scooter123 · May 31, 2015

You don't need to replace any springs to get a lighter DA trigger pull. I've done measured tests with my K, L, & N frame revolvers and can state with absolute certainty that you can tune the trigger pull to the point of 100% misfires with nothing more than a file. Since you probably aren't interested in a revolver that misfires every time you pull the trigger I can also tell you how to achieve a trigger that is 100% reliable.

First, the Double Action trigger pull is determined by the Mainspring Tension and nothing else. This means that you do NOT need to purchase a new rebound spring or even remove the side plate. However, removing the side plate will make it easier to replace the Main Spring than trying to put it back blind. What I do recommend you have is a trigger pull gage of some description so you have some means of actually determining what you pull weight is. Even if it's just a weight with a piece of string attached. Personally, I use the Lyman Digital Trigger gage but I'm an Experimenter/Engineer and a bit of a handgun nut and have tuned the triggers on every revolver and 1911 I own.

The weight that I recommend for the DA trigger pull on the Medium and Large frame S&W revolvers is 9.5 lbs. At this weight you will have 100% reliability with almost any brand of ammunition in with either standard or Magnum primers. Note, Magum primers do require a bit heavier hammer strike and Remington primers are the "hardest" primers I've encountered. With CCI and Federal primers you can go to a 9.0 lbs DA pull for standard and Magnum primers and 8.5 lbs. with CCI and Federal standard pressure primers. I can also tell you that the difference between 8.0 and 9.5 lbs. is almost unnoticeable, so going heavy at 9.5 lbs isn't really a burden when compared to the original 12.5 lbs or heavier factory trigger weight.

Now for what to do. First, I would recommend some time of accurate means of measuring a length, even if it's just a 15 dollar student vernier caliper. Having some means of measuring what you are doing is a real time saver compared to constant testing. Next the actual process is simply filing the tip of the Strain Screw to make it shorter and it doesn't take a lot of material removed to make a big difference. In fact I recommend working in 0.005 inch increments. Yeah, shortening the Strain Screw by just the thickness of a piece of paper will make a measureable difference. I'll also tell you that in most cases just 0.020 inch removed from the tip of the Strain Screw will reduce the DA trigger from 12.5 to 9.5 lbs. If you remove too much material you'll be purchasing a new Strain Screw. Note, I recommend you purchase some spares because the Stainless Strain screws are a bit soft and will peen shorter with use. Tip, purchase the Blued Strain screws for use as a spare and use one for your fitted screw, they are much more resistant to peening shorter.

Finally, about those strain screws peening shorter. When this happens a burr that is larger in diameter than the tip will form and when it grows big enough it can make the Strain Screw difficult to remove. I recommend that after every 1500 DA trigger pulls the stainless Strain Screws be removed and that burr be stoned down so it doesn't grow too large to remove the Strain Screw without damaging the thread in the frame. Let that burr get too large and it's best to use a needle file in the small gap for the mainspring to remove the burr before trying to remove the screw.

wrangler5 · May 31, 2015

scooter123 said:
< snip > First, the Double Action trigger pull is determined by the Mainspring Tension and nothing else. This means that you do NOT need to purchase a new rebound spring or even remove the side plate. < snip >

I'm not an engineer, so if I'm missing something obvious, apologies in advance. That said . . .

Double action firing requires that the trigger move the hammer against the resistance of the mainspring, and the rebound slide against the resistance of its internal spring. Is the statement that DA trigger pull is determined by mainspring tension "and nothing else" just shorthand for something like "the resistance of the recoil slide spring is so small compared to mainspring tension that it doesn't really matter?"

It seems to me that there must be SOME resistance provided by the rebound slide spring during DA trigger travel, such that lightening that spring would produce SOME reduction in trigger pull weight, other things being equal of course.

I'm just curious, as my method of improving double action trigger pulls is mainly dry firing, which (a) smooths out the innards of the action, if they're not smooth already, and (b) builds up my trigger finger muscles. But I HAVE polished up a rebound slide or two, and there does seem to be a fair bit of spring tension (compression?) on the little spring when I re-install it in the rebound slide.

shawn mccarver · May 31, 2015

Save yourself a bunch of heartache. Shoot it until it is smooth. There is no better way to learn to shoot, and you will not sacrifice reliability.

Personally, I learned long ago that there is little a gunsmithing job can do that shooting cannot do just as well, and you get the benefit of practice.

Over 40 plus years, I have never had a gun harmed by shooting. On the other hand, I have had plenty of gunsmith botch-ups.

ISCS Yoda · May 31, 2015

Save yourself a bunch of heartache. Shoot it until it is smooth. There is no better way to learn to shoot, and you will not sacrifice reliability.

That's inspirational, actually! I recently acquired a virtually new Model 19 with a 4 inch barrel (I forget the dash number and it's in the safe now so I'm not checking) and yesterday I fired 50 rounds through it in a modest attempt to mimic the Texas CHL test. I noticed that at the end of the session (which I scored very well at but that's irrelevant to this) my hand was getting very tired because the trigger was so heavy. I started thinking about a trigger job. Now, hmmmm - I'll just have to shoot it more!!!!

Thanks Shawn!

nagantino · May 31, 2015

So if I was to remove, say, .005 inch, do I still tighten done the strain screw or leave the gap? It seems that if I file then tighten the screw in fully the end of the screw still is in contact with the spring. I like the idea of minimal adjustment of the revolver mechanism by tickling one screw.

S&WIowegan · May 31, 2015

nagantino said:
So if I was to remove, say, .005 inch, do I still tighten done the strain screw or leave the gap? It seems that if I file then tighten the screw in fully the end of the screw still is in contact with the spring. I like the idea of minimal adjustment of the revolver mechanism by tickling one screw.

This post leads me to strongly suggest that you not make ANY alterations to your revolver until you become more familiar with its function. Put a few drops of oil down into the mechanism and dry fire the heck out of the revolver. You'll get far more benefit from this than tinkering with the action.

reddog81 · May 31, 2015

The heavy trigger pull might be normal on a 686, but I would be a little concerned about the trigger pull not being smooth. Do you have the option to try out other factory triggers? A rough trigger pull is usually going to be caused by small burrs or other defects on the internal parts. I would strongly suggest going and testing other 686's or other different revolvers to see if they feel better.

4barrel · May 31, 2015

A friend of mine purchased a new 586 2 months ago & the trigger was rough. We shoot twice a week. After about 300+ rounds it is coming around. Doing a trigger job on a Smith is for a professional. It will get better. Dry fire at the zombies on TV.

nagantino · May 31, 2015

I own a couple of revolvers, 1943 Victory model and a Ruger, but I have never opened any of them, so your right I'm no Ned Buntline. In comparison to these 2 revolvers the trigger was a surprise though. I will try adding a spot of oil and working the trigger to smooth it out but that seems a long haul. I think I'm like most people who own revolvers and read the forums.........I shoot revolvers, I read about revolvers and watch YouTube about revolvers but I don't open them and "Smith" them.

bigggbbruce · May 31, 2015

reddog81 said:
The heavy trigger pull might be normal on a 686, but I would be a little concerned about the trigger pull not being smooth. A rough trigger pull is usually going to be caused by small burrs or other defects on the internal parts.

On the Stainless guns I find the extractors with burrs and unfinished.

Swing the cylinder out and check the hammer pull.. I bet a lot of that gritty feeling goes away..

Polishing stone and light oil (and knowledge) and clean up the burrs and it helps a whole bunch...

ImprovedModel56Fan · May 31, 2015

While I know that springs can be altered without detriment to reliability (Austin Behlert did this to both a J and an N of mine), and the improvement can be significant, I have also learned two or three other things.

Shooting a lot improves your hand strength and the smoothness of the action.

Some guns can be improved by stoning the rebound slide. Most guns can be improved by SPARINGLY using RIG +P Stainless Steel Lube on the rebound slide and DA & SA sear surfaces. This +P lube can be used even on pre-model-number guns, of any caliber.

Some guns, particularly K frames, work best with factory springs for folks like me who don't necessarily always let go of the trigger completely before trying to fire again. I NEVER go to a reduced-power rebound-slide spring, even though I have not had a problem with that in the J frame. AFAIK, this "problem" exists for only certain grip sizes, hand sizes, and shooting habits. If it doesn't happen to you, ever, obviously it would be of no concern.

Snapping Twig · May 31, 2015

The rebound spring is directly related to the trigger - how could it not be?

I typically replace these with a quality Wolff spring if the need is there. Simple procedure.

Main spring, there's a few tricks, but I won't advise them and I don't advise modifying the strain screw either.

I've done these things for 30+ years, so far so good.

Quality action jobs are best left to a pro, like Mag-Na-Port. They will work the surfaces correctly for reliability and durability in a way that we MIGHT succeed at but more likely won't. They will do a proper action job. I have several of their action jobs and it's butter, just like you read about.

My action jobs with rebound spring replacement are good, but no comparison and I leave the surfaces alone, better safe than sorry - until I can get a class in doing it right.

Muss Muggins · May 31, 2015

Improving a trigger is much, more than grinding a strain screw, which is never recommended by S&W. Kind of like putting sawdust in a transmission. Smooth as silk for a couple days . . .

Rhetorician · May 31, 2015

Rhetorician Comment!!

scooter123 said:
You don't need to replace any springs to get a lighter DA trigger pull. I've done measured tests with my K, L, & N frame revolvers and can state with absolute certainty that you can tune the trigger pull to the point of 100% misfires with nothing more than a file. Since you probably aren't interested in a revolver that misfires every time you pull the trigger I can also tell you how to achieve a trigger that is 100% reliable.

First, the Double Action trigger pull is determined by the Mainspring Tension and nothing else. This means that you do NOT need to purchase a new rebound spring or even remove the side plate. However, removing the side plate will make it easier to replace the Main Spring than trying to put it back blind. What I do recommend you have is a trigger pull gage of some description so you have some means of actually determining what you pull weight is. Even if it's just a weight with a piece of string attached. Personally, I use the Lyman Digital Trigger gage but I'm an Experimenter/Engineer and a bit of a handgun nut and have tuned the triggers on every revolver and 1911 I own.

The weight that I recommend for the DA trigger pull on the Medium and Large frame S&W revolvers is 9.5 lbs. At this weight you will have 100% reliability with almost any brand of ammunition in with either standard or Magnum primers. Note, Magum primers do require a bit heavier hammer strike and Remington primers are the "hardest" primers I've encountered. With CCI and Federal primers you can go to a 9.0 lbs DA pull for standard and Magnum primers and 8.5 lbs. with CCI and Federal standard pressure primers. I can also tell you that the difference between 8.0 and 9.5 lbs. is almost unnoticeable, so going heavy at 9.5 lbs isn't really a burden when compared to the original 12.5 lbs or heavier factory trigger weight.

Now for what to do. First, I would recommend some time of accurate means of measuring a length, even if it's just a 15 dollar student vernier caliper. Having some means of measuring what you are doing is a real time saver compared to constant testing. Next the actual process is simply filing the tip of the Strain Screw to make it shorter and it doesn't take a lot of material removed to make a big difference. In fact I recommend working in 0.005 inch increments. Yeah, shortening the Strain Screw by just the thickness of a piece of paper will make a measureable difference. I'll also tell you that in most cases just 0.020 inch removed from the tip of the Strain Screw will reduce the DA trigger from 12.5 to 9.5 lbs. If you remove too much material you'll be purchasing a new Strain Screw. Note, I recommend you purchase some spares because the Stainless Strain screws are a bit soft and will peen shorter with use. Tip, purchase the Blued Strain screws for use as a spare and use one for your fitted screw, they are much more resistant to peening shorter.

Finally, about those strain screws peening shorter. When this happens a burr that is larger in diameter than the tip will form and when it grows big enough it can make the Strain Screw difficult to remove. I recommend that after every 1500 DA trigger pulls the stainless Strain Screws be removed and that burr be stoned down so it doesn't grow too large to remove the Strain Screw without damaging the thread in the frame. Let that burr get too large and it's best to use a needle file in the small gap for the mainspring to remove the burr before trying to remove the screw.

Scooter,

My hat is off to you kind sir! I for one do appreciate your expertise. But I have to tell of my consternation toward Smith revolvers especially since they are the "gold standard" of the firearms industry.

I have a Model 360PD 357 J Frame with a gargantuan trigger pull. I came to the Smith family after buying a Ruger LCR 357 with a "smooth as butter" trigger pull.

My question is this sir;

Why can Smith not make a reasonably good trigger pull for a $1000 plus firearm like or similar to the Ruger? Who wants to pay this price and have to do a "trigger job" to enjoy the piece?

I know I will probably get flamed for the question. But is seems to me that if they get twice the price it should at least have as good of a trigger pull without having to monkey around with a new weapon.

As was asked and stated on another thread, do the engineers and admin at Smith need to start over with a new sheet of paper on their design? I am just saying......as the kids say?

Don't get me wrong I enjoy my Smith's all of them. But I would like to see one a bit more easily used and enjoyed right out of the box.

My thoughts!

Yours?

rd

MichiganScott · May 31, 2015

I one time replaced the rebound spring and main spring on one of my M28's with springs from a top end manufacturer. I went back to factory once I figured out that I could shoot faster and more accurately DA with the OEM springs.

H Richard · May 31, 2015

Once you have that new 686 "broken in", usually between 500 and 1000 rounds fired, plus a couple hours of dry firing, you will not bother to do anything else. A trigger job is normally just accelerating the normal wear that happens, and that results in a smoother action. Now, being an impatient person, I may replace a rebound spring, never less than 14 lb, and do a little stoning on the rebound slide and a few other parts. Lubricate them properly (never too much) and with a light lubricant that penetrates. If you go to the Ruger Forum you will find they bitch all the time about the crummy gritty triggers that Rugers come with, and how they have to open up and flush out all the tooling chips and grit. At today's labor rates, nobody takes the time to clean up and tune up a new gun. It comes off the CNC machines and is assembled, and that's all.

Kernel Crittenden · May 31, 2015

wrangler5 said:
... my method of improving double action trigger pulls is mainly dry firing ...and build[ing] up my trigger finger muscles.

Excellent advise. Like any muscle, your trigger finger gets stronger with exercise. A fact, I think, that is often overlooked.

One tip I have for dry firing. If you want to avoid deepening the drag line, and needless wear on the hand and cylinder stop, you can dry fire a Smith revolver with the cylinder "swung out". With your free hand, hold the thumbpiece rearward and the action will cycle normally. With a little finesse it's possible to jam a piece of toothpick, or something, between the barrel extension and the bolt (where it comes thru the recoil shield). This will allow you to cycle the trigger one-handed with the cylinder swung open.

snowman · May 31, 2015

nagantino said:
Please forgive the baldness of that question. It's a well trodden Thread path on this and many other Forums and I know it often the negative aspect that gets the attention, but, it seems that replacement springs that ease the action on a revolver, come at a price and I don't mean $'s and cents. Has anyone replaced the main spring and rebound springs without problems eg light primer strikes?
Let me elaborate. I'm waiting on my paper work to clear for a S&W 686. It's a new gun but handling it in the shop, the trigger was a surprise.......heavy and in no way smooth. Buddies recommend a replacement of the main spring and a light rebound spring. Googling the issue does not help because light strikes seem to accompany the procedure. Is this right or do most people not encounter the problem but don't speak up. Also, does changing to Federal primers solve the problem.
I'm aware this is a well covered issue, I've read most of them, but light strikes and replacement springs seem to go together. Or is there a large silent majority of happy shooters out there who have never had a problem?

Sir,

The answer to your initial question, in bold print above, is "yes". I bought a 686-6+ model new in 2003 or 4, the only model I have which I bought new. The first time I was at the range I could hardly believe how heavy the trigger pull was in DA. I need to emphasize that it was NOT ROUGH, just extremely heavy. Because of this I found it very difficult to hit well with the gun in DA. Though I suppose it is possible I could have gotten used to this after a great deal of firing, I doubt it. Consequently I decided to make a change. I called Clark's Custom Guns and spoke with Jerry Miculek's wife, who told me that she had had the same experience with a new Smith and had to have lighter springs installed. As a result of that discussion, I bought and installed a set of Wolff's reduced power springs. At the same time I bought and installed a longer firing pin from Cylinder & Slide. The new springs made a world of difference in pull weight, and I haven't had a single light strike in the many, many rounds I've fired since that time. I load my own ammunition and do use Federal primers, so I can't say for sure how other brands would do.

You gotten some good advice from others here, mainly for dealing with rough triggers. Like all of us, you have to decide what path to take to get your gun to perform to your satisfaction. You may have to try more than one possible solution before you get there.

Let me provide you with a bit of corrective information re: the strain screw. This screw always maintains contact with/pressure on the hammer spring. scooter123 was telling you how to lessen that pressure so as to lighten the trigger pull. But the screw must exert some pressure on the hammer spring in order for the gun to function. Hope that helps.

I might add in closing this post that I am a good-sized fellow with fairly strong hands and fingers -but that trigger was still way too heavy for me. I can't speak for others.

Best wishes in improving your new revolver,
Andy

nagantino · Jun 1, 2015

Snowman, thanks for that. I'm afraid some of my questions might have shown my ignorance of the internal workings of a revolver. I love shooting them but found the mechanism a mystery. In the last week or so I've read the heck out of it and am groping towards some understanding. I understand the strain screw and its function now, and I will fit the reduced power springs when I'm ready. I've used Federal primers before so I think I will use them exclusively now in all my small primer reloading.
Looking forward to the challenge now and the next time I put a clip of 38mm into my Smith and Weston there's going to be some fun. I'll release the safety catch of course.

Why replace the springs in a revolver?

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