Problem with 66-8: powder fouling causing cylinder to bind

irapollock · Mar 11, 2016

Hi folks,
I bought a new model 66-8 about a year ago. For the most part I really like it. My problem is that it suffers powder fouling on the yoke and causes the cylinder to bind up. Happens after 70 - 90 rounds with Titgroup powder, maybe 40 - 50 rounds using Unique and two boxes of Remington factory ammo. These were all 38+P level rounds so low pressure compared to 357.
This isn't fouling on / under the star and the ejector rod isn't getting loose. Nor is the hand binding. After I take the cylinder off the yoke and clean the yoke I'm good for another session.
Never had a similar problem with either an older M15 or 686.
I think this issue might be limited to the new model 66 only.

I wanted to use this pistol to get back into PPC matches so it
needs to be able to go ~150 rounds without cleaning.
So, has anybody else had similar problems? If so what did you do to fix it? Anybody have any suggestions?
Thanks in advance.
Ira

scooter123 · Mar 11, 2016

Your model 66 has a Lifetime Warranty and I would suggest that you use it. Because the ONLY things I can think of to explain this are a missing or improperly installed Gas Ring or a Barrel/Cylinder gap that is well out of tolerance. Since these aren't something I would attempt to fix on a Kitchen Table I think that you should have the factory correct the problem. I would also suggest that when you send your revolver back to the factory you leave it in the As Fouled condition that is causing problems. Because the Warranty Repair section has a bit of a reputation of firing a few test rounds and shipping it back if it seems OK. To insure they are well acquainted with your dilemma let them see it first hand.

k22fan · Mar 12, 2016

This will not be news to the repair department. The flat filed underneath older K frame forcing cones was a stress inducer that caused a significant number of them to crack. In the 66-8 the top of the yoke was lowered so that flat would not have to be cut. That did not leave space for a gas ring. It was a trade off for the engineers. To maintain a good double action pull the cylinder must be removed and the yoke cleaned frequently in exchange for longer barrel life with .357s.

As a cost saving change about a year and a half of K frame production ending during 1977 were also made without a gas ring. Those revolvers are said to have a "gas ring on the yoke," but in reality, like 66-8s and 69s they had no gas ring at all. Like your 66-8 they infamously fouled during PPC matches. Handejector has written that he was so frustrated with his PPC revolver that he will never own another K frame without a gas ring. In 1977 S&W was forced to admit the "gas ring on the yoke" was a failure and went back to installing gas rings in all their cylinders.

Since PPC is ordinarily shot with low power full wadcutters I would not choose a 66-8 for the sport. Its stronger forcing cone is no benifit but its lack of a gas ring is a serious detriment.

BOMBTEC · Mar 12, 2016

I had a model 66 when they first came out, and I have acquired another M66 no -. I believe the problem is the M66 is a clone of the M19. And built to the same specks as as the M19. The problem is they are made of two different metals one of steel one of stainless steel. As I found out with heat they expand at a different rate. Try this shoot the M66 till it starts to bind. Let it cool for 20 min with out cleaning it. Try it again and see what happens. Also you might try different powders that don't have as much residue/fowling.

BuckeyeS&W · Mar 12, 2016

I had same problem the first time I shot some light 357 mag Titegroup and Bullseye loads. Was bound up after 30-40 shots . I have switched powders and started to use a little Remington dry lube after cleaning cylinder area . I now use AA #5, 2400,and Trail Boss ,all loaded with 158gr lead SWC . I have shot as many as 200 rounds at one time without any binding at all. I have gone over 500 rounds without cleaning cylinder and haven't had any issues with binding.I've also have shot jacketed 158 gr bullets behind Win 296 with no problems. When I first had problems at range I was able to free up cylinder with some Remoil that I had in my range bag. When I cleaned pistol at home after binding there was a lot of carbon on the cylinder shaft,I don't know if carbon - powder residue was the total cause or that combined with heat was problem.

cowboy85306 · Mar 12, 2016

Howdy- the 1st Gen m-66 did not have a gas ring, and, yes, fouled quite quickly when ammo featuring cast lead bullets was fired in them. At the first engineering change, this was remedied. IF you can find a 'smith who went through S&W's armory training back in the day, one of the things that was developed was to install a gas ring and modify the crane for the needed clearance ( the later cranes were different, to accommodate the gas ring ). I own a 66 no dash on which this was done. Great shooter, but no "collector value".

irapollock · Mar 12, 2016

Guys, thanks very much for the info. Not having a gas ring on this model really explains the problem. I'll load up a couple of batches of ammo with 2400 and 296 to see if that helps. If that doesn't do it I'll call factory service and find out what they have to say.
By the way, the barrel - cylinder gap on this particular pistol is 5 mils
Ira

BuckeyeS&W · Mar 13, 2016

irapollock said:
Guys, thanks very much for the info. Not having a gas ring on this model really explains the problem. I'll load up a couple of batches of ammo with 2400 and 296 to see if that helps. If that doesn't do it I'll call factory service and find out what they have to say.
By the way, the barrel - cylinder gap on this particular pistol is 5 mils
Ira

Let us know if different loads help,it worked in my case but every pistol is different. I would like to know if a gas ring was installed by a gunsmith would Smith Wesson still honor their warranty?

Waywatcher · Mar 13, 2016

Unique powder is just about the dirtiest powder I've tried. The high nitro content of Titegroup makes it burn hot and vaporize more lead from the bullet. Switching to a different powder might make a substantial difference. Or upping the charge to increase the pressure for a more complete burn might help too.

I would try lubricating the area with a CLP type product that will dissolve carbon that makes it there. Or you could also try plated/jacketed/coated bullets for a cleaner launch.

irapollock · Mar 18, 2016

Hi Guys,
A quick update:
I put together 50 rounds of 357 using H110 (16.5 Gr) under 158 Gr XTP
bullets. Those left powder residue on the yoke but not enough to bind up the cylinder. So that was a step in the right direction.
I did call S&W factory service and described the problem. The fellow there said to return the revolver and sent me a FedEx shipping label. So
The pistol is now on vacation in Springfield MA. I'll let you know what happens when it gets back
Thanks again for your time, help and comments
Ira

BuckeyeS&W · Mar 18, 2016

Thanks for update hope all goes well. Will you go back to the Titegroup loads that caused the binding problem ?

irapollock · Mar 20, 2016

When the pistol comes back I'll try the Titegroup and Unique loads to see
if the problem got fixed or at least improved. After that, I'm not sure. I
have some HS6 and BlueDot that I could try, at least for full house loads.
Around here, pistol powders availability is still pretty iffy.
By the way, does anybody have any recent experience with S&W factory service turn-around times?
Thanks
Ira

Electraclyde · Mar 20, 2016

irapollock said:
When the pistol comes back I'll try the Titegroup and Unique loads to see
if the problem got fixed or at least improved. After that, I'm not sure. I
have some HS6 and BlueDot that I could try, at least for full house loads.
Around here, pistol powders availability is still pretty iffy.
By the way, does anybody have any recent experience with S&W factory service turn-around times?
Thanks
Ira

About 6 months ago I sent in a 380 Bodyguard. It was back in 9 days, but still had the same problem in was sent back for. It is now long gone.
Hope you have better luck.
I do own a 66-7 that will bind up rather quickly. I do not shoot competition with it, so it is not a big deal for me.

SmokinLoon · Mar 21, 2016

Just a question... are you able to put a drop of oil on the piece that binds during the competition? I'm a bit fan of CLP for stuff like you're describing. I'm at about 54-60 rounds of Winchester/Remington factory loads on my new 66-8 and I'm not seeing any binding as of yet. However, I will be watching this thread with a keen eye. I'm curious where this goes.

lbullock1 · Mar 21, 2016

I know that this is not the correct forum for my question, but getting a group of Model 66-8 shooter together is not that easy. I love my gun, but have been unable to find a quality, leather holster for it. Even Galco which I believe makes S&W holsters does not make a holster for the newer Model 66s (66-8). The problem apparently is that the barrel is 4.25" in length. There may be other dimensional problems, such as barrel lug size, etc. but I do not know. It seems that a mold for this gun has not yet been made. There are some companies that I have not yet tried, e.g. Milt Sparks. Does anyone have any suggestions?

scruffy · Mar 21, 2016

SmokinLoon said:
Just a question... are you able to put a drop of oil on the piece that binds during the competition? I'm a bit fan of CLP for stuff like you're describing. I'm at about 54-60 rounds of Winchester/Remington factory loads on my new 66-8 and I'm not seeing any binding as of yet. However, I will be watching this thread with a keen eye. I'm curious where this goes.

I've got over 200 rounds of factory ammo through mine. All FMJ or SJHP Remington, WWB, Speer and Federal. No binding whatsoever. Cylinder always spins freely. I clean and brush out residue in the area where the gas ring would be with with Hoppe's #9 and finish with a drop or two of Weapon Shield. So far so good, but I will be keeping an eye on it.

scruffy · Mar 21, 2016

lbullock1 said:
I know that this is not the correct forum for my question, but getting a group of Model 66-8 shooter together is not that easy. I love my gun, but have been unable to find a quality, leather holster for it. Even Galco which I believe makes S&W holsters does not make a holster for the newer Model 66s (66-8). The problem apparently is that the barrel is 4.25" in length. There may be other dimensional problems, such as barrel lug size, etc. but I do not know. It seems that a mold for this gun has not yet been made. There are some companies that I have not yet tried, e.g. Milt Sparks. Does anyone have any suggestions?

I'm saving up to order this Glaco. All reviews and write ups indicate it fits the 66-8 perfectly.

https://www.copsplus.com/prodnum1779.php

BuckeyeS&W · Mar 21, 2016

lbullock1 said:
I know that this is not the correct forum for my question, but getting a group of Model 66-8 shooter together is not that easy. I love my gun, but have been unable to find a quality, leather holster for it. Even Galco which I believe makes S&W holsters does not make a holster for the newer Model 66s (66-8). The problem apparently is that the barrel is 4.25" in length. There may be other dimensional problems, such as barrel lug size, etc. but I do not know. It seems that a mold for this gun has not yet been made. There are some companies that I have not yet tried, e.g. Milt Sparks. Does anyone have any suggestions?

I use the same holster that I bought for my 4" 617 , it's an El Paso Strong side select. It's fits great and the holster is very well made.

Nevada Ed · Mar 21, 2016

After removing the cylinder and the yolk and ejector for a major cleaning in all the nocks and cranny's with Q-tips etc. and everything is clean and the carbon knocked off...........

Wipe dry and add some Kroil to the cylinder system and spin it on the shaft a few times. Wipe off any grime and re-oil with the Kroil until it spins like a top. A little goes a long way.

I used Hoppes and other cleaners but this is what I now use to keep my revolvers working.

scooter123 · Mar 22, 2016

lbullock1 said:
I know that this is not the correct forum for my question, but getting a group of Model 66-8 shooter together is not that easy. I love my gun, but have been unable to find a quality, leather holster for it. Even Galco which I believe makes S&W holsters does not make a holster for the newer Model 66s (66-8). The problem apparently is that the barrel is 4.25" in length. There may be other dimensional problems, such as barrel lug size, etc. but I do not know. It seems that a mold for this gun has not yet been made. There are some companies that I have not yet tried, e.g. Milt Sparks. Does anyone have any suggestions?

Look for the Galco Silhouette for the K/L frame, it's a very good OWB holster with a thumb snap. Can't remember the exact model number off the top of my head but they only offer this model in the K/L frame and N frame sizes. The K/L frame version will work perfectly with my model 620 (semi lugged L frame 357), a 686, or a model 67. Also because it's an open bottomed holster you can use any barrel length you wish with it.

BTW, to make snaps work much much easier use an old Mariners trick and apply a bit of bees wax to the snap. Just a dab will do you and it will act as a lubricant and corrosion inhibitor for at least a year or a bit more. I can also tell you that a product called Atlas Door Ease found in many auto parts stores and used to lubricate car door hinges and hold open detents is basically pure bees wax.

Problem with 66-8: powder fouling causing cylinder to bind

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