I've read a lot of threads where folks lament the MIM parts that S&W is using now. Many folks want to replace them with "normal" parts. My question is: why, what's the big deal?

I realize that MIM parts are not traditional. However, Ruger has been using cast parts for decades. I'm not a metallurgist, but it seems to me that the MIM part creation isn't much different than casting parts. I haven't heard about Ruger parts breaking, so I don't know why I would worry about MIM parts on S&W.

I've got a Model 69, which has a MIM hammer, trigger, and cylinder release. They seem ok.

I was born and raised in the Baptist church. If you want to start a fight at church, all you have to do is try to get something changed... you’ll hear things like “because we’ve always done it that way” etc, and change seems to be tantamount to heresy.

I think a lot of gun owners must be Baptists at heart because they have the same kind of resistance to change. In addition, there is a distrust of change for fear the new way will be less satisfactory than the old because as everyone knows, corporate changes are made to save money, not bring about improvement. Then again, there are those who will demand things be done in the old manner just because they distrust “unproven” technologies (whether they really are or aren’t.)

Moderators please note that I am not espousing any of these attitudes, merely expressing my opinion based on observation. It may explain why most of my guns are older, but then again, “I was born and raised in a Baptist church...”

Froggie

I don't see any problem with MIM parts either, most of my S&W's have them and never had a problem with any of them, my 617's have seen many thousands of rounds through them. I think some people have a problem with state of the art manufacturing that can reproduce the same part perfectly every time. Maybe it looses some of that "hand crafted" look and collector value.

It definitely saves the manufacturers money.

When MIM parts first hit the gun market in a big way maybe a decade or two ago, it was as much about the who than the MIM itself. Almost a tiny microcosm of the gun manufacturer entirely... the outfits that made lousy MIM parts were making junk parts that shattered under stress.

This is not internet lore or an old wive's tale. Poorly manufactured MIM parts are junk parts that snap or crumble with no warning and these wrecked the foundation of MIM's reputation.

Smith & Wesson has always had a darn good reputation for the quality of their MIM parts. And over on the semi-auto pistol side, the 3rd Gen pistols started entirely with forged parts and evolved to MIM parts and I can tell you that it's my opinion for sure and shared by many that the best production 3rd Gen pistols across the board are the ones that evolved and eventually used MIM small parts. Hammers, triggers and internal bits, all MIM, and these guns exhibit better, cleaner, lighter, smoother trigger pulls in both DA and SA than earlier 2nd and 3rd Gen forged part pistols. (the feel of the 1st Gens often beat all because those guns were fitted, tested and built by true skilled craftsmen, not a barnyard full of low wage assemblers.)

In revolvers, I prefer (not strong enough a word... I DEMAND) that my S&W revolvers are pre-lock, pre-MIM guns simply because that's the S&W revolvers that I love. Not because the MIM parts aren't good, but because the guns from my formative years are the ones that excite me.

MIM is a tremendous positive in the building of handguns, by and large. And S&W MIM is some of the finest MIM in the history of small arms. But make no mistake... there is lousy, junk MIM out there and some of the "MIM is junk" reputation is built on reality and cheap, broken, shattered parts.

I heard so much negative about MIM years ago, that I don't like the idea of MIM parts in firearms. It didn't help when I later saw an INDO-MIM of India ad in a magazine picturing some internal SIG parts. That being said, I've had firearms with various MIM parts for years, and don't recall ever experiencing an issue with a MIM part. I have noticed that the S&W and SIG DA/SA semi-autos, and S&W revolvers, with MIM parts have smoother DAs than most pre-MIM S&Ws and SIGs I've owned.

Still don't like the "idea" of MIM firearm's parts though

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NRA Life, COTEP 640

Nothing wrong with well done MIM parts. They are not as pretty as nice case hardened, forged and machined parts ( hammers / Triggers) but they are more precisely finished and require minimal fitting if any.

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Sceva
OGCA SWCA NRA

MIM's been around for a long time without issues, with that being said, it will break before tool steel will. That's about it.

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Dave Ramsey Cultist

And that is my opinion! The only reason I prefer older parts over MIM!
Ed

Thanks much for those thoughts. I thought it might be more preference than true structural integrity.

I don't distrust the functionality of MIM parts. I just don't like the looks of them. Compare an MIM hammer and trigger to a forged hammer and trigger and you'll likely see the difference.

It is OK to like MIM parts, but I will never own a Smith & Wesson revolver that has them. It is a preference based on aesthetics alone.

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FBINA, 204th Session

Originally Posted by GerSan69
MIM parts are fine. Forged parts are fine. End of story.
OP, please use the search button. PLEASE. This topic has been beat to death so many times, it has it's own Zip Code. The battle lines are drawn and the war will never end. This is as bad, if not worse, than the Internal Lock War.
Sorry, but the bad blood is too much. Can we move on?


Seems like everyone in this thread thus far has spoken politely about the issue, even though opinions differ. The poster above complains about us participating in a discussion of the topic, yet here he is...

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FBINA, 204th Session

No you didn't! what kind of gun lube do you use?

I’m speaking only for me so take that for what it’s worth.
I only collect Smith’s that were hand machined by someone who probably spent years learning the business before they were allowed to touch a customers gun.
These folks could probably diagnose a problem gun without ever removing the sideplate.
The new guns with MIM parts I’m sure are fine if you’re looking at a gun strictly as a tool. My aren’t, they’re artwork as fine as any painting in a gallery.
Maybe a better analogy is comparing a Rolex watch to a Casio.
Both tell time but one tells it with class.

I did use the search feature. I looked for both "MIM" in topic titles and in posts. There's a billion in posts, and there are none in topic titles.

You should feel free to move on if my bringing up the topic offends you. You probably spent more time responding than you should have.

You're supposed to use lube on a gun? Hmmm.. that explains something else.

The bias against MIM isn't abnormal. People distrust and detest change. For one thing it takes a while for a process to mature into its top form.

Arc welding was considered a poor procedure when compared to rivet construction. Even within the last 25 years wire welding was considered inferior to stick welding. When I started out you saw almost no wire and very little TIG. Now lots of both.

My father said they will never make a stainless knife that can hold an edge. Now some of the better blades are made from stainless. 50 years ago making a stainless gun would have been considered folly. Now many consider them superior to 4140 based guns.

Aluminum will never be good for much in critical parts! Airplanes are you kidding. Motors what a joke. They all had problems in their infancy. Now they are all over the place and doing a great job.

Plastics and nylon. Same thing. A shiny chrome bumper is a thing to behold. One good wack and it has a dent. A new plastic bumper pops right back into place. No I am not a fan of the plastic fantastics but they do WORK.

They don't build em like they used to! Lets take the car. How many 57 Chevys got 250,00 miles with no re work? Think it would do it with the same set of plugs? Those fancy electronic did away with those "dependable" points and rotor. Why you only had to adjust them every 10,000 miles. Did they get that 250,000 miles on 4 or 5 sets of tires? Of course, because those bias ply tires all got the same mileage as those new fangled radials. And who needs seat belts, shoulder straps and air bags anyway?. Disk brakes. Ya, all this stuff was laughed at ridiculed and mistrusted. I did some of it and those who don't accept MIM did a lot of it.

None of my Colt revolvers or semi-autos have MIM parts. Perhaps 90% of my S&W revolvers and both of my S&W semi-autos are pre-MIM parts. I don't know if that really matters; old and newer all seem to work well.

However, let's not take away from the curmudgeonly by arguing a point that means a lot to them. It's okay to resist change.

I was okay with not replacing the mim parts until I noticed a cracked stirrup when doing a detail cleaning...



...after that, I decided that they had to go.

And go look at how many forger hammers have had the spur break off.

I believe that for the most part forged parts are superior to MIM. But the margin is pretty slight. In some cases the MIM part may have some superior qualities.

Newer people have the right to ask the questions that have been "beaten to death.". Like someone else said, if you don't like it, move on

I own no MIM guns myself, but it's just because I buy what I like. If something new tickled my fancy, MIM parts would not turn me off of it.

It’s mostly about tradition. The MIM issue lives primarily in the S&W and 1911 worlds, because purists don’t like changes they perceive to defile the essence of their passions. I am one of those purists. Same goes for cycling. For me a fine Italian bicycle can’t wear anything but Campagnolo components, to use Shimano is a sin of the highest order.

Planned obsolescence
Planned obsolescence, or built-in obsolescence, in industrial design and economics is a policy of planning or designing a product with an artificially limited useful life, so that it becomes obsolete after a certain period of time. The rationale behind this strategy is to generate long-term sales volume by reducing the time between repeat purchases.

I have 2 MIM guns,all the rest are forged...I say spend your money on what you enjoy. I prefer the old ones, but when a good deal comes up on a MIM, I'll get another! I don't seek the MIM's out

That’s the definition of “planned obsolescence,” but how is it relevant to this discussion? MIM, tool steel and forged parts will all last several lifetimes and a percentage of them all will fail.

This keeps me up at night.

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I’m your Boogie Man, uh huh.

I won’t knock mim’s since my Kimber's all have them.But if given a choice like at Burger King. The impossible whopper might taste like meat and be healthier for you ,I’ll stick with an original.

Your having trouble finding posts about mim parts or search results didn't come up about mim parts failing in your search is very telling that mim parts are nothing to be concerned about.
Like was said above....some people just don't like change.
Same thing with the interlock. For all the hoopla about the interlock it seems strange that the searches don't bring up hundreds of complaints about interlock failures. Rather than hear complaints about IL failures about all that is read is that people don't like the hole in the side. People act like the IL hole is a crater in the side of the gun.
Yep both mim parts and IL are nothing to be concerned about as far as prone to fail at your next trip to the shooting range.
Whats that mark you have? Oh it's nothing, its been there for 20 years.

Speaking of the uninitiated, I read this entire post hoping the meaning of MIM would be explained. Not knowing, I find it difficult to understand what’s being debated. Acronyms are not easy to decipher for some. Thank you.

Took me a while to find it too. It's Metal Injection Molding. Here's the Wikipedia link.

Metal Injection Molding.

It's a more complex process than forging or casting,
but can produce more complex and finely-finished
parts, saving a lot of hand fitting/final finishing
steps in production.

Metal injection molding - Wikipedia

When I first joined I thought MIM might stand for Made In Mexico

FWIW, according to one of my BIL's brothers who works for Ruger, they did a lot of the pioneering work in the MIM process and they still produce a lot of MIM parts for other manufacturers.

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Send lawyers, guns & money...

With me, I rather the look of forged hammers and triggers over the MIM hammers and triggers, but I don't worry about the longevity of the MIM parts over the forged parts. I rather forged, but won't turn my nose up at a gun that has a MIM hammer and trigger if it is otherwise something I desire.

Doesn’t bother me either way mim or not. If it like new or old it’s no biggie with mim parts. Forged or not there still heat treated to a spec. I pull the side plate and lube every moving part with moly and forget about. To make castings today they use electric furnaces not the older coke heated furnances we’re getting a better quality steel today. Times have changed in production processes. Are they better or worse time will tell. We can’t quarterback comment it without owning one. I say get one and shoot the snots out of it.

I bought a new car once and everyone said the trannies were bad after 130 k miles it proven them wrong.

There is nothing wrong with a properly made MIM part. The beauty of MIM is that they pop out of the mold requiring very little finish machining. Forged parts, on the other hand, start as rough forgings and every contour and contact point must be machined. When those cutters dull, you end up with a rough finished part. With MIM, the parts are far more uniform and as close to identical as you will ever likely see. So firearms made with forged fire control parts will have triggers that range from incredible to junk, whereas firearms made with MIM fire control parts will have pretty much identical pulls.