29-10 accuracy potential?

teletech · Oct 3, 2021

Made up some hand-loads and found things tended to average about 7" at 50yds, which is a bit disappointing considering the reputation the 44 has for accuracy. The question is do I need to keep trying bullet/powder combinations and I'll find some magic, or is this specimen just not up to the task.
Throats range from .429-" to a pretty honest .431", might be .431+". Barrel is .417" to the lands and .434" at the grooves as nearly as I can measure.
I'm not crazy about the throat variation and the barrel seems oversized.

Bullets were 240SWC-PC and 240JHP Hornady. Powders were Unique and Green Dot. These were loads that had worked well in another 29.

22hipower · Oct 3, 2021

You didn't tell us how you're shooting; offhand, resting on sandbags, Ransom rest, or? Frankly, if I could keep all of my 44s, or any of my others for that matter, in a seven inch circle at 50 yards I'd be REAL happy.

Jeff
SWCA #1457

Neversink n Klapperthal · Oct 4, 2021

I always got my best 44 groups with hotter powders. 2400,296. AA5 is just about my best powder for accuracy in every gun I`ve tried,be it 357 or 44

stansdds · Oct 4, 2021

When it comes to velocity and accuracy, every firearm is a rule unto itself. To determine the accuracy potential of your Model 29-10, you really need to test quality factory ammo as well as reloaded ammo. Fire from a very stable position and although 50 yards is certainly a reasonable hunting range for the 44 Magnum, it might not be the best distance for accuracy testing and load development. I do my load development accuracy tests at 25 yards and from a seated position, the handgun stabilized by a rest.

teletech · Oct 4, 2021

stansdds said:
When it comes to velocity and accuracy, every firearm is a rule unto itself. To determine the accuracy potential of your Model 29-10, you really need to test quality factory ammo as well as reloaded ammo. Fire from a very stable position and although 50 yards is certainly a reasonable hunting range for the 44 Magnum, it might not be the best distance for accuracy testing and load development. I do my load development accuracy tests at 25 yards and from a seated position, the handgun stabilized by a rest.

I don't recall factory ammo doing any better than my reloads, but fine to give it another go. While I appreciate the thought, I've found that many loads or firearms that hold up nicely at 25yds can open up considerably at 50. This was striking in a test I did between an original SIG P210 and a new one; both guns grouped well at 25 but the newer gun had double the group size as the older gun out at 50.

teletech · Oct 4, 2021

22hipower said:
You didn't tell us how you're shooting; offhand, resting on sandbags, Ransom rest, or? Frankly, if I could keep all of my 44s, or any of my others for that matter, in a seven inch circle at 50 yards I'd be REAL happy.

Jeff
SWCA #1457

Seated and rested, for load testing I do try to take myself out of the equation. I've used several handguns that will handily keep ten in under 5", so 4.6"-10" depending on load isn't bringing me joy. I considered oversizing the throats out to .431" to uniform them and match my T.L. or even .432" in the hopes of improving things (at the cost of needing custom-cast bullets) but was just wondering if others have had experience with pretty large groove diameters still being accurate. If the lands upset enough metal into the grooves to get a good seal I guess it could be OK, but I worry about blowby as things are now.

Paul105 · Oct 4, 2021

If you really have a .434" grove and .429"-.431" throats, that could be a problem.

ms · Oct 4, 2021

What is the most accurate gun you've shot? What is its average group for 10 shots at 50 yards, for 5 consecutive groups, same conditions as you've described?

DGNY · Oct 4, 2021

If you recently purchased this as a new gun, you might want to call Smith and Wesson. Otherwise, as you note, you could have all throats cleaned up to be consistent at the size of the largest current dimension. After that, yes - try ~.431 flat base cast with powder you (and the 29-10) like... also some full power factory ammunition from a squeaky clean bore.

Anecdotally, years ago I found my short Super Blackhawk Ruger had a large ~.433 bore and was happy only with ~max book hand loads of 2400 & 210 grain Sierras; I am thinking only those bumped up enough to obturate?

If the current groups are vertically dispersed, could also be crimp, but not too likely with the powders you mentioned?

All best.

shocker · Oct 4, 2021

I've slugged 4 different 44s made between 1995 and 2019. They all are remarkably consistent at 430 throats and 429 grooves.
If what you reported are the true measurements I'd send it back to the factory, it's way out of spec.

kleeber · Oct 4, 2021

If you want to take the variable throats out of the equation you can mark a chamber you like and shoot the whole group out of that one chamber.

cowboy4evr · Oct 4, 2021

I have 2 , 29-10's , 4" and 6.5" barrels . Both had a tight spot where the barrel threads onto the frame . It sized down my bullets and accuracy suffered . I had to open up the cylinder throats to .431 and fire lap the barrels . It has taken almost 50 rounds of firelap bullets in each to solve the problem . The accuracy has definitely improved . This problem is common in many revolvers , other brands as well . Regards Paul

teletech · Oct 5, 2021

ms said:
What is the most accurate gun you've shot? What is its average group for 10 shots at 50 yards, for 5 consecutive groups, same conditions as you've described?

It's hardly fair to compare a stock 29 to say a custom 1911 or a SIG P210, but I can assure you I wouldn't be complaining if I wasn't used to 4" or better from other factory guns.

teletech · Oct 5, 2021

kleeber said:
If you want to take the variable throats out of the equation you can mark a chamber you like and shoot the whole group out of that one chamber.

Very good suggestion! If I go with the largest chamber I can at least determine if uniforming them will tighten things up.
Looking back at the targets with this in mind, there are usually 6-7 in a decent group and then a few fliers. This would map pretty well to two tighter chambers loosening up the bullets fired from them, since I usually loaded five I'd have either one or two "bad" shots each reload...

teletech · Oct 5, 2021

DGNY said:
If you recently purchased this as a new gun, you might want to call Smith and Wesson. Otherwise, as you note, you could have all throats cleaned up to be consistent at the size of the largest current dimension. After that, yes - try ~.431 flat base cast with powder you (and the 29-10) like... also some full power factory ammunition from a squeaky clean bore.

Anecdotally, years ago I found my short Super Blackhawk Ruger had a large ~.433 bore and was happy only with ~max book hand loads of 2400 & 210 grain Sierras; I am thinking only those bumped up enough to obturate?

If the current groups are vertically dispersed, could also be crimp, but not too likely with the powders you mentioned?

All best.

Secondhand. I think I might have shot it some when I got it and then it sat for years before I decided to actually give it some real attention.
Some vertical stringing, but mostly an annoying tendency to flyers. As you point out, these aren't hot powders and hardly heavy loads so I'm inclined to doubt crimp. Given those fairly mild loads I'm also not prepared to blame the shooter, though I will admit the 4" gun does recoil a fair bit more than an 8" 29 does.
I'll try the trick one member suggested of shooting a group from just one chamber to see if that helps. Single-loading like that will of course also remove crimp from the equation, and that suits me fine at this stage since I'm wondering about the barrel.

DeplorabusUnum · Oct 5, 2021

teletech said:
Made up some hand-loads and found things tended to average about 7" at 50yds, which is a bit disappointing considering the reputation the 44 has for accuracy. The question is do I need to keep trying bullet/powder combinations and I'll find some magic, or is this specimen just not up to the task.
Throats range from .429-" to a pretty honest .431", might be .431+". Barrel is .417" to the lands and .434" at the grooves as nearly as I can measure.
I'm not crazy about the throat variation and the barrel seems oversized.

Bullets were 240SWC-PC and 240JHP Hornady. Powders were Unique and Green Dot. These were loads that had worked well in another 29.

No doubt that bullets sized to fit the throat/barrel are more accurate. I've got a model 25 with throats that measure .455 and the groove diameter of the barrel is .454. Until I started sizing my bullets to .454-.455, the accuracy was not good from that revolver. The fact that your throats vary so much in diameter makes me wonder if you'll ever get great accuracy from that pistol without reaming them all the same.

DGNY · Oct 5, 2021

Lots of good thoughts here. As well, if you're using factory iron sights, consider trying to find a merit suction cup variable aperture device for your shooting glasses.

Or simply poke a ~1/16" hole in an inch of black electrical tape and stick it on the appropriate spot on your shooting glasses. This dramatically increases depth of field and sharpens the sights on the target.

ms · Oct 5, 2021

This is really tedious, but back when I shot IHMSA I would test my revolvers by shooting several groups from each chamber, on separate targets. I remember on the 617 I ended up using one of the chambers shot to a different POI than the others, about two inches off at 100 yards. I ended up making a little scratch by that chamber and just using the other five.

teletech · Oct 9, 2021

ms said:
I ended up making a little scratch by that chamber and just using the other five.

Funny, I read this and shuddered at an unnecessary scratch added to a gun, then I went to the range... I started with a wrap of masking tape around the cylinder with the throat sizes marked, it almost totally blew off the first round I fired. Luckily there was just enough left to tell which two were the .429"s, so I changed to small target repair circles. After a few shots one of those came off. They were adjacent so then I was left knowing three .431" cylinders and one .429". Got through the session like that.
The rifle range was busy so I was limited to 25 yards, but considering how poorly this is shooting that's nut much of a handicap. I've ordered larger bullets but for now all I had on-hand were some .430 lead I'd bought from Missouri Bullet.
Shooting from the one .429" I still knew did tighten things up by about 1" at 25yds. So, better a bullet that's swaged by an undersized throat in a loose bore than one that fits the bore better but undersized for the throat.
I'm sure I could do better by reaming all the throats uniform, but them I'm dependent on larger bullets. That's not too big a deal when I'm shooting lead, but when I want full-house loads I'd like to be able to use JHPs and I don't want those rattling around.
I could buy a new cylinder in the hopes of tighter throats but then I've still got a pretty loose barrel.
I might just sell the gun and shop for another with a set of pin gauges in my pocket. After all, most folks won't ever reload for it and couldn't shoot better than 5" with a laser at more than 15yards.

rays44 · Oct 9, 2021

teletech said:
Made up some hand-loads and found things tended to average about 7" at 50yds, which is a bit disappointing considering the reputation the 44 has for accuracy. The question is do I need to keep trying bullet/powder combinations and I'll find some magic, or is this specimen just not up to the task.
Throats range from .429-" to a pretty honest .431", might be .431+". Barrel is .417" to the lands and .434" at the grooves as nearly as I can measure.
I'm not crazy about the throat variation and the barrel seems oversized.

Bullets were 240SWC-PC and 240JHP Hornady. Powders were Unique and Green Dot. These were loads that had worked well in another 29.

If you're using pin gauges for the throats, you'll get accurate measurements. The bore is a different story. The odd number of lands and grooves (5?) make it very difficult to get an accurate measurement. I am told by several gunsmiths that S & W M29 bores are remarkably consistent.
Before you do anything to the gun that you can't "un-do", think this through. Are you hunting with it at 50 yards or just shooting for enjoyment? Can you shoot any other revolver better at 50 yards? Are you basing your judgement on just these 2 loads? Do you normally shoot jacketed or lead bullets? There is a lot to consider before you over think this. Good luck and enjoy your revolver.

29-10 accuracy potential?

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