A CASE FOR SINGLE ACTION SHOOTING

When I joined the Michigan State Police in 1966, we were trained to shoot our Smith and Wesson revolvers (both K and J frame models) in single action mode only. We used standard bullseye targets in the “Camp Perry” style course of fire.

(All troopers were issued the heavy barrel model 10)



(Starting in the late 70’s, if you shot distinguished expert, you were issued a model 67 with the State Police logo on it.)



About 1969, we started to transition to “combat style”, double action shooting. However, they actually trained us to use a sort of staging method of trigger control for increased accuracy. In a very short time, and after a number of accidental discharges using this staging method, they transitioned to a consistent complete double action trigger pull with out staging. The also stressed the “double tap” style of shooting at a threat.

My daughter joined the State Police in 1987 and that time they were training to never use single action style shooting with the still being used revolvers. In 1989, MSP transitioned to Sig Sauer 226 9mm da/sa and stressed to not use the single action for the first shot (several ad’s occurred with the old time Troopers cocking the hammers of their 229’s like they were used to with their revolvers).

After being retired for many years (since 1989) I am really having a problem with this insistence on double action shooting only with both modern and older double action revolvers. (My daughter still cringes when she sees me using a revolver in a single action mode. However, she just admitted to me that when she qualified with the off duty gun issued in the 90’s which was one of the hammerless S&W J frames, she stagged the trigger to get a perfect score.)

I just watched a video about one of the new S&W Classic model 19’s. This gun has fantastic target, adjustable sights which are about useless with double action shooting. The presenter admitted that he could get much better groups using the single action mode and seemed clueless why he couldn’t do it in double action.

I submit that all single/double action revolvers should be shot single action unless you need to get off a fast round for defense at a close distance. If you are pointing your revolver at a threat to get him to stand down, then of course it should not be cocked.

If you are using your sights, I assume that the threat is no longer at a close distance and now you should be using the single action mode for accuracy.

These presenters on various videos about single/double action revolvers complain that revolvers would not be their first choice for concealed carry primarily since they only hold 6 (or 5) rounds. I believe they should loose the “spray and pray” mentality of most modern shooters and get back to basic accuracy concepts we embraced when I came into police work.

Just some thoughts

Trooper Joe

Good points, indeed, Trooper Joe. Some of us see a need to improve shooting skills as we shoot at paper targets most of the time rather than practicing gunfighting and self-defense; the latter really gets boring after a while, but it's good to do it occasionally.

Single-action Bullseye style shooting at 25 yards or more using good technique will certainly help a shooter in improving skills, though it doesn't happen overnight, much to the dismay of the "want it right now" folks.

Interesting comments.

1) I would like to meet the person who can score 300 on a Camp Perry course. If their is, there would certainly not be many.

2) I remember a number of times lowering the hammer on my revolver from the cocked single action mode to the ready/at rest double action mode with out a problem or “decocker”.

3) Why does S&W put such a fantastic single action mode on their modern (especially “Classic”) models if single action should not be used.

4) I am seeing presenters on some of these videos using double action at hunting distances with their revolvers. I submit they should be using the single action mode in these cases.

Trooper Joe

I only own revolvers and only one of my eleven is d/a only.I still shoot all of the rest d/a,s/a, combat,strong hand and weak hand on a monthly rotating basis.The variation that they allow is a joy unto itself and I really will never know what method will be appropriate until God forbid I am forced to make that decision.

I consistently practice with both double action and single action on my revolvers and on my double action automatics.

I have no problem with the transition, although I am more accurate in SA.
I have no problem with lowering the hammer on the Model 19 or M17, 1917, or the Ruger single six for that matter. I also have no problem with lowering the hammer on a single action automatic with a hammer.

I think mastering the transition is just a matter of practice.
I do not own a DA only gun myself. I do own a number of early striker fired automatics and concealed hammer automatics .They are essential "single action" because they are always cocked. I carry those on an empty chamber.

Would not carry a Colt 1911 "cocked and locked". But I do not care if you do, if you are competent and confident with it.

As to police officers needing to decide wether or not to fire at a person, that "decision tree" starts several steps before they point a gun at someone, I believe. They train to make those decisions and how to handle their weapon. And they are very good at it.

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Kind regards, Heinz

I tend to agree with the OP, but being a member of the Over The Hill Gang, I guess my views are antiquated. (Or at least I’m sure there will be a long line of people willing and anxious to tell me that. ) I’ve never been a police officer but I’ve observed over the last five-plus decades. For a time, it seemed like there was a noticeable interest in increasing marksmanship and gun handling skills, mainly during the mid-70s through the late-80s. Then along came autoloaders and it seemed the interest in marksmanship decreased proportionately as each succeeding generation of weapons held more, smaller cartridges. Someone once said, “The object of all shooting should be hitting!”

Started my career in ‘68 w/a Colt Official Police. Our training was bulls-eye and single action was only employed from the 50 yard line. Everything else was shot double action. I recall one officer managed to get his Model 15 into single action mode on a call and was not sure how to make it safe. I showed him “how” on that call and he left the department for another line of work shortly after that.

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Old Cop
LEO (Ret.)

I have been practicing rapid double action "Point and Shoot" diligently for several years at very close range (10-15 yards) with a 1920 vintage S&W M&P revolver----the only fixed sight revolver I own. This is shooting at silhouette type targets----no aiming (per se) involved-----------and the double action trigger pull doesn't even approach "fairly firm". It isn't even a little bit firm---compliments of a Jerry Miculek Spring Kit. I got rather good rather quickly----which is to say I hit what I'm shooting at almost without exception--------at silhouette type targets----center mass.

Now, you put me in front of Bullseye targets at 25 and 50 yards, double action is not my cup of tea, and neither are fixed sights!

Ralph Tremaine

Please illustrate some examples of this based on your reasonable amount of experience, law enforcement or otherwise.

Some double-action shooters may shoot better than skilled single-action shooters, but these very proficient double-action shooters are certainly among the very best shooters of all, indeed a very small percentage overall.

I think it depends how you train and what you're looking to accomplish. For many years I shot all revolvers single action only, and never really understood or cared for the double action feature (I'm a civilian and a hobbyist). Then in 2013 I got into reloading. All of the sudden I found myself paying for range time to develop loads and once accomplished, I had .30 Cal ammo cans full of handloads. Single action simply became too slow for the volume of shooting I was trying to do in one hour, or so. Before long I was shooting 99% double action. I now shoot better double action than single. Below is target I shot after a 6 month hiatus.

158's at about 1000fps from a S&W 620 at 10 yards...no staging...there's nothing really to stage off of with that guns trigger anyhow. Note: I cannot readily replicate this now single action. I'm sure I could if I dedicated time, but my muscle memory and grip is now set for double action.



Edit: I misread the quote I quoted. Whoops!

WOW - Great responses.

For full disclosure, I was on the Lansing, Michigan police department for 7 months before I joined the State Police. There we were trained in a sort of “Combat Shooting” double action method with our 5” Colt revolvers. We were trained to start the trigger pull and complete it without staging or hesitating. We were also trained to focus on the front sight and to hold it over our target even if the target was blurry. This worked very well and when MSP switched to double action shooting, I did not have a problem even though MSP did not emphasize front site acquisition.

This last story seemed to indicate that some manufacturers may have focused on the reliability of single action and put efforts in the double action mode as a secondary concern.

I was in about three years when my partner and I flushed some runners from a building break in. I did not want to shoot them even though B&E was a felony. I attempted to fire a round in the air (I am sure this was against department regs), double action, and the gun did not fire (index or something was off). Sent the gun in for repair and all was well after that.

To this day, I still occasionally find that the double action mode on some revolvers doesn’t seem to be as positive as the single action method.

I agree that double action should probably be used for close range encounters. However, if the distance is greater and especially if you are enjoying some cover, I would find myself using the single action mode.

I just feel that some “experts” are suggesting that even in non defense types of situation ( maybe 20 yards plus, hunting scenario’s) that double action is the only way to properly use a da/SA revolver.

Trooper Joe

SLT223- Good shooting, but do this at 25 yards. Any shooter shortcomings are far more evident as distance increases and 25 yards isn't really very far. Good luck in your shooting endeavors.

I love and enjoy handguns possibly as much as anyone and while I do carry one concealed as often as possible and I do regular practice with exactly that handgun, defensive and survival gunfight practice is just a tiny slice of how I enjoy handguns.

I have numerous revolvers and love ‘em. I do the bulk of my revolver shooting on 6-inch to 8-inch steel plates from 12-15 yards. For this kind of shooting, the skill is making the hit and quickly finding the next target and making that hit also.

Double action rules the roost here, and it’s not just for speed, it’s for not having to alter you grip on the revolver even one little bit. Not my strong hand nor my support hand come out of place to cock a hammer — my trigger finger handles that task smoothly.

For me, shooting almost always double action is much more about a comfortable and repeatable grip on the revolver.

My old school PPC revolvers don’t even have the capability to shoot single action.

When the big .460 Magnum XVR comes out, that’s single action exclusively. I don’t know if I’ve ever fired that cannon in double action.

I thought you were referring to actual experience, not YouTube-type material.

I think I just discovered the mystery (after 50+ years) of the double action mis-fire. I was carrying hand loads at that time and I bet I had a slightly high primer. I was using military brass which if I remember right had some tight primer pockets.

When I used single action, my model 10 was hitting them harder than when it was using double action and the gun would fire.

For everyone’s comfort, I don’t hand load any more .

Trooper Joe

Relax. I assumed from your first post on the matter that you must have had actual experience to make such an assuredly blatant comment. That apparently wasn't the case. Certainly not worth argument.

Very similar situation here.

I also used to ONLY fire my revolvers in SA. Got pretty good too.

Then somewhere around 2018 I started working much more exclusively on DA firing.

Now, I’m better firing in DA than I am SA. Noticeably better.

It also seems smarter to me. After all, I may not always have time to cock a hammer - if I’m not used to doing it, there’ll be less hesitation in a time of need. Being used to the heavier/longer DA trigger also comes in handy with my DA/SA auto loaders - the all important 1st shot is far from a foreign sensation for my trigger finger.

But to each their own. If the OP prefers using SA, who am I to tell him otherwise?

Oh boy! As usual, there seems to be no right answer and all will be convinced that their method and training was and is the best. I served for 36 years plus as an officer, started with revolvers and transitioned to a 1911 and then other SA/DA, Striker fired etc. guns for both duty and teaching.
I still love my revolvers and shoot/carry them often. In my opinion, revolvers were meant to be fired in DA mode for self defense but for a long distance, deliberate shot at maybe a small target. They were never made to be shot in all circumstance in single action mode and certainly never when covering a subject at close range. I used to practice single action shooting at distance, just in case I had to take that deliberate/precise shot. Single action revolver shooting is and was for PPC accuracy shooting and precise shots on suspects when a small target is presented but not for closer range combat distance shooting. This argument so closely reminds me of those surrounding 1911 carry methods. In my opinion, a 1911 is and was designed to be carried in condition 1 only, but there are many who will argue with that. My answer to that is get proper training!

I am in complete agreement. I don't like that mode of carry, I mean I REALLY DO NOT LIKE IT, but if you're good with it, fine. By good I mean competent!

A few decades ago there were incidents of "police shootings" wherein an officer had cocked his revolver and then accidentally touched it off because of the now light trigger. I believe one such incident caused a riot in Miami. 1980s.

Here's an interesting NYPD story and it's my personal evidence of why I vehemently disagree with hammer cocking a self defense revolver - the NYPD SPECIFICALLY armed their officers with revolvers that could not be cocked to avoid the ADs that happened far too often:

POLICE, CITING SAFETY, ADOPT NEW GUN - The New York Times

(c) NY Times - 1987

If you like to practice target shooting at distance I can understand why you would cock the hammer of a revolver. If you're a professionally trained LEO with routine over and over again training, listen, I don't argue with police departments and their protocols. But for the typical self defense shooter/gun carrying in the 21st century the worst possible thing you can teach yourself is to shoot your self defense revolver single action. YMMV. I've said this before so this is nothing new.

Moreover, unless you're a trained LEO or military fighter, or compete in assorted shooting sports, especially cowboy action where you are only shooting single action revolvers, there is very little reason to cock the hammer of your self defense wheelgun or pistol. Learn to point shoot, learn to be focused and quick about it but accurate, but be especially aware of your situation. Deciding to not shoot is way easier when your weapon in not cocked.

BTW, the same goes for hammer fired pistols. As noted, I included them above but this is an afterthought. 1911s, Hi-Powers, striker fired guns, they're in a different dimension and you must train accordingly. But if you like to carry 3rd Generation S&Ws, as one great example, learn to use them the same way you use a revolver - round in the chamber, hammer down. That's what decockers are for.

YMMV but I'll never buy the single action argument and I've been around a loooooong time!

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Come and take it!!

Trooper Joe,

I generally like what you are writing. I don’t always agree with it but it is usually well thought out.

My background, I wore a badge for about a decade before I quit. I competed in PPC before, during and after that time. As you may know, PPC involves multiple courses of fire with ranges from 7 to 50 yards. I do not know of any winning competitor who used single action in any of the courses. I met many new shooters who used single action at first but those who stayed with it all “converted” to double action.

I have quoted some of your writing that I felt needed commentary.

Joe, if you have a revolver that is not functioning properly, it needs to be repaired.

And for you, that is appropriate. For me, I will use the double action feature that I am most comfortable using.


Careful, it sounds like you are trying to say single action is the only way to shoot!

Some folks can learn one or the other. Some can handle both. It is good that we have options.

Kevin

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Unshared knowledge is wasted.

Not possible to aim with the sights in DA mode ? Dang , I must have been doing it wrong for neigh 50 years .

In a wayI guess it specifically dates me : Primarily DA , Speedloaders around but not yet universal ( I adopted early) , and " safety holsters " not yet universal ( O was more ambivalent ) .

But furthermore above is somewhat moor , as in my impressionable youth was tought DA by my father , and absorbed Keith and Jordan as to the virtues of DA .
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With a reasonably decent DA trigger ( ie most S&W without blatant defect or malfunction ) DA is at least as accurate as SA * for me *

Added - Yes , my Father tought me Trigger Staging . I never teach it , and rarely do so myself , only occasionally as a stunt .

It’s nice to see someone actually say this, even though the point is hardly worth making a stink about. Nothing I have read has ever suggested the 1911 was intended to be carried cocked and locked, and there is material that indicates otherwise. Nevertheless, I feel safe doing so. And there are times when I also use condition two and three (boondocking, storing the gun at home, etc.). As long as you understand how the gun works, you can safely select the mode you feel is best suited to the situation/activity you’re involved in.

The DA v. SA thing is similar. I have a friend who shoots DA exclusively and he used to like to ridicule me for shooting mostly SA. One need not be exclusive of the other! For 95% of what I do with a revolver, single-action shooting is a logical choice. The other 5% is just practice for me. I’m not a proficient DA shooter, but I have done it enough to be comfortable with it - with certain guns.

The best DA shooters almost invariably use revolvers that have been carefully tuned. No dishonor in that. Some even go the Federal primers-only route, which I view as extreme, but it’s their gun and their choice. In the long haul, unless you have marching orders to do this or that, doing whatever you feel comfortable with and what gives you the greatest likelihood of hitting would make sense.

Excluding the Centennials, I only have one revolver that I enjoy shooting DA (a 4-inch Model 19). I don’t enjoy shooting any revolver DA that kicks more than a .38 Special or low-end .357. As a primarily recreational shooter, the whole DA v. SA argument is just a bore to me, but here I am, commenting on it.

That the revolver was cocked was a contention of the prosecution in Miami and refuted at trial. The prosecutors claim-plus actual negligent discharges in other instances- did contribute to the trend of major agencies like LA, Miami and NYPD to have their revolvers converted to double action only.

Not a bad idea in a defensive revolver as some lawyer can always allege that your claim of self defense is covering for a negligent discharge resulting from the gun being cocked. There's no way to prove forensically if the shot was fired SA or DA. Video would be another matter.

The occasional misfire in DA can sometimes be operator error. If one is very slowly moving the trigger while trying for precision, a slight relaxing of the trigger digit as soon as the hammer fall starts can allow the trigger to interfere with the hammer fall, causing a light strike. The trigger press should be a smooth continuous motion ending with the trigger pinned all the way back.

Not sure about the 1911 being designed without a manual safety. The grip safety was demanded by the Army. The 1911 was designed as a cavalry sidearm and originally, even the magazines had lanyard loops. The grip safety was intended to make darn sure that a firearm dangling on the lanyard with the mount at a gallop wouldn't fire.

These are all great comments. A few lean towards the position of using double action only but even then they seem to qualify that thinking that there may be rare occasions where single action is appropriate.

I agree that my original MSP training should have included some double action situations. Heck, we were not even using combat targets just bullseye ones.

A responder on another forum wrote:

“ IF you look at the history of DA revolvers and their use, (and in particular use by military and police) you'll find a long period of time when the DA feature was essentially considered an "emergency use" thing intended for situations where the priority was maximum speed at point blank range. ”

I believe that this was still the mind set of MSP trainers when I came in.

If you remove defense use from these discussions, I still feel that single action is appropriate in most hunting and long range scenarios. I believe
one responder stated that the famed Elmer Keith’s very long range revolver shot was done double action. I have researched this and find that much of his handgun shooting was done with single action revolvers. I can’t find any documentation that when he did use a da/sa revolver he transitioned to double action only.

My thoughts on posting this thread are that many current shooters are failing to experience the beauty of shooting a Smith and Wesson revolver in the single action mode.

Just some thoughts,

Trooper Joe

Learn to shoot you gun well, be it single or double action. I cut my teeth on a M1911A1 in the Corps. Guess what it is single action only. Then I bought a Colt Trooper .357 and learned single and double action. Went to a USMC school to become a firearms instructor for security. We relearned shooting the M1911A1 (course was Gunsite) and then 4" revolvers both Ruger and S&W. Learned about staging. Taught Navy security and qualified with Model 36 S&W 2" and Ruger & S&W 4" revolvers and shot Distingished Expert with both (Yes, I was staging them). Several years ago picked up a A.F. Behlert PPC revolver, it is DAO. Once I learned to shoot it, it became my favorite revolver. If you can shoot DAO well then all other forms of handguns shooting should come fairly easily.

Attached Images

PPC Target.jpg (167.8 KB, 19 views)

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USMC 69-93 Combat Pistol Inst.

The M1911 had a manaul safety, it also has a grip safety and a muzzle safety. As Save Ferrous shows it is a M1910 that has no manual safety and those were not accepted for service. As with the M1905 & M1907 models

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USMC 69-93 Combat Pistol Inst.

The Army requirements for the 45 cal pistol specified both a manual and a grip safety. The Colt, Luger and Savage test pistols all had both a manual and a grip safety.

The Colt 1900 38 ACP and the Colt 1903, initially, had a pivoting rear sight safety that did not work out well. The 1910 in the NRA museum is from a tool room run and has a grip safety. Browning added a safety, locking the frame forward, at the Army's request and refitted the pistol for the 1910 trails. The 1911 was designed with the required. grip safety.
Some of the Colt guys here know much m ore about this that I do.

The Safety on the 38 and prototype 45 Colt automatics was evolving. But, strictly speaking, the 1911 was designed with a grip safety. The Safety was aded to the 1910. All of which has almost zero to do with the topic.

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Kind regards, Heinz

Yeah I fall into that 95% category too. Most of my revolver shooting is at 25 and 50 yards on the standard NRA slowfire targets for the respective distances. I shoot far and away better in SA at those distances. l know some will say there are guys that can shoot just as well DA at 50 yards but I am not one of them. In the late 1980s , early 1990s when I shot revolver bullseye league everyone shot SA. When I shot NRA silhouette I never saw anyone shoot DA with a revolver.

On a few occasions I'll fire my 617s DA at 25/50 yards and use the NRA timed/rapid at the 25 yard. With the cost of reloading components and my limited primer inventory high volume centerfire revolver DA shooting is no longer an option.

I don't use revolvers for self defense anyway for some years now and usually shoot a semi auto more accurately compared to DA in a revolver. The last Smith revolver I used for for a defensive handgun was a 642 which of course is DA only.

Your statement was "Browning designed the 1911 without a manual safety"

He did not, he designed earlier pistols without a manual safety. The 1910 Browning auto has both a manual safety and a grip safety, although it did not really go into production until 1912 so maybe not on point.

Your original statement is wrong. If you want to segue into a discussion of how John Browning designed the gun to be carried, that is a different discussion. I have never seen written evidence of John Browning's opinion in this matter.

If you want to do a side topic on Automatic pistol design and carrying cocked, start one. There is no question on double action pistols being designed to fire either cocked or uncocked, that why they were called double action

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Kind regards, Heinz

When I started as an LEO in 1964, our qualification course was the PPC course. At the time everyone (at least that I was aware of) shot the 50 yard line SA.

After I had been shooting PPC competition for a while, I observed a trend for the best shooters to fire the entire course DA. Since PPC is all two-handed shooting, shooting DA meant no disruption of the grip to cock the revolver. Not disrupting the grip meant no disturbance of the sight picture. Thus more time for the shot.

I resolved to become competent enough to shoot the entire PPC course DA in the effort to improve my scores. It took around 3k rounds of practice to make this transition. But it took and my scores and classifications did go up. Since then I have never looked back.

One poster has mentioned the challenge of shooting the Camp Perry course DA to show the greater accuracy potential of SA. PPC is (now) all supported as opposed to bullseye. It is meant to replicate combat conditions, so I don't think the two are directly comparable. Had I been oriented towards shooting bullseye, I would have shot that SA, even though I was shooting PPC DA, because of the one handed grip and far lighter, shorter trigger pull.

When I was teaching the PC 832 classes, the state-mandated course of fire was DA at 15 yards and timed. Many of my students had never fired a handgun when they came to me. Over the time allotted I had to get each one to where he/she could qualify to pass this course. There was no time to start training in SA then transition to DA. Over the 16 hours of range time, divided into four sessions, the students fired a total of 600 rounds. This was a fair amount of shooting, but I needed to not only teach the techniques, but build muscle memory and develop confidence. It worked. Not a single student ever failed to qualify.

One other point on reliance on SA shooting. I have an early 50s era S&W M&P (model 10) with a 6" bbl. My father had bought it for home protection. I don't think that revolver was ever fired as it appears brand new. When that revolver ended up with me, in checking it over I brought it up to eye level as if to dry fire it DA. That is when I discovered that the rear fixed sight, a groove machined into the top strap, is not visible with the hammer lowered. Extrapolating this historically means that LEOs carrying those era fixed sighted Smiths had no way to shoot DA accurately at distance because there was no way to acquire a complete sight picture using both front and rear sights. Had I not discovered that on this old revolver I never would have known it because the S&W action design had changed well before I started in LE. But I am left with the impression that this characteristic of fixed sight S&W revolvers had to have contributed to the practice of shooting SA for accurate shooting at distance. There was no other way to get a sight picture.

Whether one chooses to shoot DA, SA or a combination, is dependent on one's training and experience to build the skills. The skills then dictate the preferences. That is an individual choice. For me it was predicated on improving my PPC scores. But once accomplished, there was no going back.

So much to comment on, so little time. I'll stick to a couple.
"3. Because S&W revolvers aren't just built for police defensive shooting inside 25 yards. People use revolvers to hunt, target shoot, etc. The existence of a capability doesn't mean it is the best option for all uses.
If I were to carry a revolver as police, I would appreciate being able to cock the hammer for very specific kinds of shooting - like when dealing with someone who has a rifle and all I have is cover."
and
"Police officers often start pointing guns at people long before there has been an established threat." - Save Ferrous!

On your first comment - where the heck did you get that? "Not built" for the most common type of defensive shoot? Ridiculous.
I don't know about all police departments from more than 30 years ago or whenever revolvers were largely replaced by semis, but two of the largest, NYPD and LAPD, restricted their officers to double-action only revolvers.... and thousands of others followed the major departments in many aspects of police training.
As to your second part I quoted, at one time that was true. Contrary to popular belief, the police owe no one the "benefit" of drawing first. They don't follow the Marquess of Queensberry Rules, either. "Fighting fair" in a street fight is for losers. Anyway, it was common practice to be "ready" with a gun in hand when confronting a suspicious person or on suspicious calls, like a burglary in progress. I can't count the number of times I did that over 35 years. Some nights it was every call!
But since I left in 2014, the "social justice" tidal wave has wiped away the old ways, as you can see from the articles you listed. IMO, since the SJWs are now the loudest voices out there, politicians now find that a few dead cops is acceptable, so changing the rules to lessen officers' "advantages" is the trend. All I can say is, glad I retired.
[As for your later post: I think some of the incidents you linked to were likely OK under the rules that were in place just a few years ago - but that was then, this is now, and there's no excuse for not learning, nor is there an excuse for out-and-out misconduct. "We" are better than that as a whole.]
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"As to police officers needing to decide wether or not to fire at a person, that "decision tree" starts several steps before they point a gun at someone, I believe. They train to make those decisions and how to handle their weapon. And they are very good at it." Heinz

Your belief is correct. Every officer is trained in a "use of force continuum" that covers everything from voice commands all the way up to deadly force. Every step is carefully laid out as to the parameters for the step as well as when to go to the next. Of course, if your initial contact is someone shooting at you, you aren't expected to talk them out of it. (Although that may be the next "trend"....)
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Saved the OP for last. Sir, your comments reflect the school of thought more than 60 years ago. Police firearms training has advanced a heck of a lot since then. Even 13 years after you started, which is when I was sworn in, things like single-action and the old competitions were nowhere in training new recruits. I think that you are entitled to your opinions. You earned it (although I was disappointed by your comment about not wanting to shoot a burglar.... I had an Academy classmate get fired for similar conduct) but I earned mine, too, and in my not so humble opinion, I'm glad for you that you aren't a cop now.
So there ya go, no doubt stepped on a few toes. Sorry, but sometimes the truth is painful. Enjoy the rest of your holiday!

For the last few months since it warmed up again, I have been firing over 50 rounds a week from revolvers, from 32s to 45s. 95% of them are DA. I only use single action to check guns best accuracy and where it fires with perfect sight picture. The more you fire DA the more the trigger pull becomes a muscle function. IMHO If your conscious of thinking though the trigger pull your not doing it right. I try to focus on the sight picture as my finger does its thing. Just like a rifle, you focus on the sight picture, putting pressure on the trigger and the bang is a bit of a surprise. Just a longer pressure period with DA.

Ya, if I was going to shoot game that was standing still and not intending me harm I would cock the hammer and use single action. I am more accurate SA, but not by all that much. If I can put a hole in a paper plate every time at 25 yds with DA I am happy. None of my carry guns have hammer spurs. If I go rabbit hunting I will take a 22 or 32 and cock the gun if the rabbit just sits there. If I go deer or elk hunting I will have a 4" or longer barreled 45 colt and cock it unless the game is right there. Hey if your good DA you should better SA without much practice.

The great thing about S&W revolvers is both SA and DA work well. Each has its place

If I was a cop in a high crime city area I would carry a semi auto anyway. But, then around here a couple of the sheriff deputies carry revolvers.

OK, you got me. I think I did a pretty good job with the rest.

Seriously, the basis of this exercise is the old way vs. the new. I submit that there really weren't "tactics" taught in the Police Academies prior to the push for officer safety that began in California in the late 60s - early 70s or thereabouts. "Shooting" in the old academies was simply a crash course in competitive shooting. No emphasis on anything but the 10-ring.

There is no comparison to more recent training.... really, some of it changed immediately after the Newhall incident in California in 1970. The need for tactics was tragically demonstrated by the number of CHP officers killed there.

Anyway. I'm done with the history lesson, but at least folks that weren't aware that there is a "reason" why much of what we do when shooting these days can understand a bit better.

Oh, and single-action revolver stuff has no place in police shooting. (Just wanted to add that again.)
(BTW, I'm not this bad in person. Really.)

The only justification I've convincingly heard for retaining SA capability on duty revolver was an ofc simultaneously getting injured in both hands / arms in a fight , using last remaining strength to thumb back hammer . Yes , off the wall .

Ironically , while I'm perfectly on board for DAO , I do prefer to retain the hammer spur .

At least in my region , by early '80s there were still some legacy COF that technically permitted SA at the longest stage , but it wasn't tought , and was strongly DIScouraged , unless the hapless shooter couldn't make a minimum qualification score , and the instructor/ range master was more concerned with finishing up & going home instead of giving additional training .

Kudos to Sgt Johnson !

As great as his marksmanship and heroism , it's moot to this discussion , as he used an M&P .40 bottomfeeder . ( All the more credit to his skills )

For slightly less apples & oranges example from the bottomfeeder world :

In a particular medium size PD of my intimate aquaintence , against an escaped prisoner ( escaped from different agency ) in mid carjacking , Ofc. took him down with first shot hit @ measured 76 yds . With the DA first shot from DA/SA P226 .

Apparently, in my post above I wrote this dumb sentence, brought to my attention by a sharp reader:

Clearly, I meant to write "the the worst thing you can do is to train to shoot single action in self defense situations."


I thank WRMoore for pointing that out to me - and I would change that post above but I must have edited it once and the edit function wants me to compare my original and edited version and it's just too weird to deal with.

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GerSan69 —

….” Saved the OP for last. Sir, your comments reflect the school of thought more than 60 years ago. Police firearms training has advanced a heck of a lot since then. Even 13 years after you started, which is when I was sworn in, things like single-action and the old competitions were nowhere in training new recruits. I think that you are entitled to your opinions. You earned it (although I was disappointed by your comment about not wanting to shoot a burglar.... I had an Academy classmate get fired for similar conduct) but I earned mine, too, and in my not so humble opinion, I'm glad for you that you aren't a cop now. ”….

1) When I came in in 1966, the rule was you could shoot at any felon. In a few years (by the time of this incident) the department had a list of only 7 or 8 felonies where you could use deadly force. A couple of kids running from a building they broke into was definitely not on that list. Maybe MSP was more progressive than you think.

2) I am glad I am no longer on the job also. However, three weeks ago I passed my annual certification for my LEOSA permit (100% on the range and written test) with a Glock 19. A number of younger retirees had trouble with both tests.

Just sayin..

Trooper Joe

HA! I figured it out and changed it to single action. Happy am I!!!

WR MOOORE also wrote: This is true but when you’re in a fight for your life you really do not have time to shoot for precision. You do that at the range to have this skill but, again, when confronted by a gremlin threatening your life or someone else’s you should just point and shoot the gremlin’s lights out. That’s how I practice, and I can certainly shoot precisely in both single action and double action modes. I do that to impress myself and my friends, not to win gunfights – and, again, I do not expect gunfights at 75 feet.

Trooper Joe wrote: I can’t argue the point – but I have NEVER heard it expressed or seen it written anywhere.

Then he wrote:
That is my point exactly. If Trooper Joe stayed with that I'd never have piped up in opposition. Long range hunting and target shooting is where using a revolver single action comes into its own – not fighting.

Then:

I am not sure where that comes from but Elmer Keith was well known to have shot a variety of sixguns, including a number of S&W double actions. I have not seen his discussion on shooting his double action revolvers single action for self defense but John Taffin would know.

THE SIXGUNS OF ELMER KEITH
© Sixguns

Beauty is always in the eyes of the beholder. For precision shooting at the range, sure, it’s fun to shoot single action, especially at distance. If you're a handgun hunter you should practice single action shooting at distance. But when I hang B-27 silhouette targets I treat them as the enemy and everything is point shot, double action (using revolvers, of course), at center of mass at various ranges that I consider to be up close and personal, never beyond 15 yards, and not too many at that distance because even that is too far for single action gun fighting under pressure. Again, revolvers. Clearly, if I am using a TDA or striker fired pistol it's a completely different situation. And sometimes I take some head shots, too, but only after I perforated the silhouette’s center of mass, That’s the way to win a confrontation, not by drawing faces on the head of the silhouette.*

Never forget the Mozambique drill taught by the late, great Colonel Jeff Cooper.

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A couple of points here:

Removing the hammer spur isn't necessarily a good idea (OK, I've got a J frame like that, but it can be a pocket gun and I did it 50 years ago). Back in the late 1980's I got hired by an entity that still issued revolvers. They made up for it by issuing 681s, Federal 125 gr JHP .357 ammo and making us train a lot. In the process we learned that revolvers do, in fact, malfunction. One of those is the trigger refusing to move to the rear to fire the next shot. There are several possible causes for this. Except for the dreaded bullet between barrel and cylinder, the most effective immediate action drill is a hearty yank on the hammer spur. No hammer spur, no IAD-unless you've got a readily accessible backup.

My comments on operator induced misfires was establishing another possible/probable cause of misfires while on the range. And, it prominently mentioned "precision", didn't have anything to do with behavior during a close range encounter where trigger yanking is much more likely.

With respect, there can be issues with head shots, especially with handguns. Hollywood has firmly established the wrong place on the head to aim. The medical community calls that area the cranial vault for good reason. The head shot isn't the magic off button unless you hit the right place. This being a public forum, I'm not going beyond that.

To me, the beauty of a DA revolver is versatility.

They’re viable for SD, hunting, or target shooting.

My obsession is with the all-round gun, or “field gun” as I like to call them. They’re portable and capable of handling game/vermin up to deer or hogs in my neck of the woods, as well as bipeds. Concealable under a jacket for a visit to town, but not really for EDC. Maybe even shoot an IDPA match if I’m so inclined.

But mostly killing rocks, stumps and prickly pear.

A 4” DA revolver checks all the boxes.

My EDC guns are dehorned, but my field guns still wear spurs and are sighted in SA. The latter are capable of fast DA work if needed.

I keep the missions separate because I demand precision from a field revolver. Unless you don’t practice or drill much, SD and competition revolvers take a beating. They get cycled fast & often, which is hard on the cylinder stop and notches. Speed reloads, especially with plunger-type SLs puts a strain on the yoke and crane, and the cylinders get closed hard, fast, and often.

The effectiveness of DA can be seen in the result that thousands of PPC and NRA Action Pistol (Bianchi Cup) competitors have had. I personally have found that when shooting semi-auto or revolver SA, I (and others) will have a tendency to loosen the grip and "stab" at the trigger. This can also be seen when trying to stage a DA revolver or shooting an old Colt that stacks. I believe that this is due to the fact that you are using the fingers to do different things at the same time. This is similar to the dexterity that is seen in a piano player.

I have found that it is much easier to shoot DA. All the fingers are exerting pressure and the grip is maintained during the string of fire. Further, DA revolver shooting helps increase accuracy when shooting SA autos and revolvers. Dry fire with a DA semi will help, shooting you need to de-cock between shots to get the effect. Long DA pulls reinforce maintaining grip and sight alignment while exercising sight alignment. It will take work and time to develop good DA skill. Most shooters do not want to take the time or put in the effort.

Look at the history of the French anti-terrorist police the GIGN. The history of that unit using DA revolvers and full bore 357 mag 158gr ammo is legendary and well documented.

I shoot DA 99.99% of the time.
If dinner or cash is at stake I go SA

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What hasn't been mentioned is the ability to steer the front sight in DA shooting. As the trigger is pressed the front sight picture is refined prior to the end to score the X!

This is the epitome of trigger discipline! Master this in revolver shooting and I guarantee your SA or DA will improve your score whether handgun or long gun.

It's hard to argue against DA snap shooting, "flash sight picture" shooting in self-defense!

Once the DA revolver is mastered, mastering the DA/SA semi-auto is "priceless"!

Please explain.

From the OP! "I submit that all single/double action revolvers should be shot single action unless you need to get off a fast round for defense at a close distance. If you are pointing your revolver at a threat to get him to stand down, then of course it should not be cocked.

If you are using your sights, I assume that the threat is no longer at a close distance and now you should be using the single action mode for accuracy."

Steering the front sight during the press is the opposite of the surprise break. I want to control exactly when the shot breaks.

Of course, the SA shooter can do the same thing but for me I prefer DA for all my revolver shooting.

(I failed to mention that I've shot a few hundred thousand rounds in pistol/revolver games including PPC and Action games!)

It's discussions like this that make this forum great.

I prefer to shoot revolvers double action. Yes, it takes more effort to learn to shoot them accurately and more grip strength to manipulate the trigger. However, I'll make that trade for the security of a longer trigger pull. While I have many revolvers, I only carry one on a regular basis. The Kimber K6S and it is D/A only.

In the below video, I tied overall for most accurate (this includes semi auto and revolvers) out of about 75 or 80 shooters. For sure, Single Action is easier to get accurate with, quickly. And several of the longer shots I did stage the D/A pull.

I'm in the "D/A for fighting with revolvers" camp.

Kimber K6S in IDPA - YouTube

In 1965 I became a Police Officer in Chicago. Our weapons training was as noted previously, "Camp Perry" style. SA, one handed, bullseye targets. This was the training for at least the next 10 years. Gradually DA use was introduced along with usage of both hands, and more modern techniques gradually became the norm. In about 1978-1980 DAO revolvers were required, but with a hammer spur for secure holster retention. Choices were S&W and Ruger, some new recruits were allowed to use "old" Colts that were either in the family or otherwise acquired, but DAO shooting was required with them also. The Colts were considered "authorized alternate" weapons. The DAO S&W and Ruger DAOs were "regulation". Interestingly, the regulation weapons were required to be chambered in .357, but only the .38 Special 158GR +p SWC HP was allowed to be used. When semi-autos began to appear as "alternate duty weapons" in the late 80s early 90s, there was a General order issued that no firearm used by CPD was to be cocked by hand under any circumstances. By the time I retired after 30 years semi-autos were making serious inroads as regulation weapons in 9mm and .45 ACP. All of the newly permitted or specified semi autos started out as SA/DA then went to DAO by the time I retired in 1995. Today the 9mm DAO or striker fired weapon is standard as regulation.
In 1968 semi autos were permitted as "optional" as long as a .38 special revolver was also carried, this was pretty much a Detective or other plain clothes situation as packing a full size revolver and a full size semi auto was pretty much a PITA for uniformed personnel, although some did it. he rules initially specified that the semi auto had to be carried chamber empty, hammer down-even on the then new S&W 39/59 series. Needless to say that rule was observed more in the breach than observance.
I usually carried a BHP cocked and locked with a S&W 940(when they became available) and hoped that in a really tight administrative crunch I could get my .38 on scene ASAP. Being a Detective that was fairly easy and I used the 9mm combo for a very long time. I also carried a Colt Commander(in .45 ACP of course) when the situation might call for it (stake outs).
My wife came on the job during the mandatory .357 using .38 DAO period, and kept to that throughout her career, and could consistently out shoot most guys using semi autos (having nimble little fingers to manipulate speed loaders helped a lot). Later I got her to to use moon clips for both her M65 and M36 after I had her guns modified.
I do not remember a single ND using a DAO revolver, but I remember several using SA/DA revolvers, and a lot when Glocks first came into use.
I never had a problem with the BHP, cocking or uncocking, and when moving around where a gun grab was more likely than at other times(in a crowd), I would drop the BHP hammer to half cock and then reapply the safety. If one does not know how to get the weapon into firing condition from that configuration-and train on how to do it-a BG might as well have grabbed a club.
I still like the BHP and the 940 and carry one of them when it is appropriate for an old guy to be carrying-most of the time if in Chicago these days. Fortunately I do not live in the city any more, or even very close to it.
I kind of split up the SA/DA concept, the BHP was only SA and the 940 (and my M60) were DAO. Excellent shooting can be done either way, and for the same reason, constant training and practice.

I've followed this thread but haven't commented since I have no LE experience. I respect those who do and thank them for their service.

I was a LEO for the better part of 44 years. As a 21 year old rookie starting in 1969 I knew very little about handguns. I was lucky to have an older Chief who required monthly qualifications. He would supply a box of 50 .38 special reloads but if you shot any other caliber you had to buy your own ammo. We started our qualification by shooting five rounds SA from the 50 yard line. We would then move down to the 25 yard line and shoot five rounds strong hand and five rounds weak SA hand from a barricade. Then five rounds DA, reload and shoot five more rounds DA in 10 seconds from 25 yards. The rest of the shooting was load, holster, draw, DA only, and reload, all timed. If you were not very good or you just like to shoot he would give you more ammo and you could go through another series. Myself and many other officers would do this. You weren't allowed to drive a cruiser until you qualified. Gun cleaning facilities were available at the range and you were required to clean your weapon before you left the range. The range officer was there making sure you cleaned and reloaded before you left. A few officers showing up a month later with an empty revolver was the reason for this. We got new carry ammo every six months. We had a lot of good revolver shooters back then. I still practice similar to this at least once a month, usually more, on my own range. If I'm shooting something at a distance it's usually SA. If it's close enough I'm pretty sure of a hit it's DA. I still shoot my semis but don't usually carry them unless I'm on the road or going somewhere I feel I might need more ammo. Even then, I have a .38 or better revolver on my person. Bottom line, do it the way you feel most comfortable.