I was wondering if the air weight J frames that are not marked for +P on the barrel like the newer J frames are would handle a fair amount of +P ammo or is this a NO NO since it is not marked? I am talking the original 442/37-2 etc? Thanks...
J frame +P question on earlier models
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First, welcome to the forum
The question about +P ammo comes up about 2-3 times a month on average.
Do a search on the term +P and you will literally find more info than you even want to read.
The question about +P ammo comes up about 2-3 times a month on average.
Do a search on the term +P and you will literally find more info than you even want to read.
Short answer is you will have no problem with plus p ammo.
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I'd be a little careful on this, the factory didn't rate them for +P until later engineering changes....
While someone might get away with shooting +P on older models, if they actually had an issue their Lifetime Warranty might be in jeopardy.
Here's the flyer that was published when they finally made them +P rated. Note this coincided with the newer style (integral) frame lug/cylinder stop.
Here's the newer frame lug....
Click on the pics for a larger view...
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SnidelyWhiplash
Member
Occasionally shooting +P loads should do the revolver no harm…but why doing so when there are loads available designed for short barrel guns?
Shooting the +P round loses much of the velocity advantage out of the short barrel and also has the disadvantage of increased muzzle flash and recoil.
Shooting the +P round loses much of the velocity advantage out of the short barrel and also has the disadvantage of increased muzzle flash and recoil.
Use short barrel loads for SD in your J's. SWC's or LWC's for practice.
So, given the constant and everlasting presence of the Plaintiff's Bar, the members of which will sue the pants off of any and everybody whose actions or whose products cause injury to a user and/or damage to their property---and make a GOOD living doing so, is their anybody anywhere who believes the ammunition companies are going to put out a product (such as + P ammunition) that has the potential to injure a user or do damage to their property? And let's define "property" as including ANY GUN EVER MADE in ANY caliber for which +P ammo is made. PLEASE!!
The only reason +P ammo is made is to sell it, and to increase the profit margins of those who make it. The only reason "+P rated" guns are made is to sell them and increase the profit margins of those who make them.
Bottom Line: Is +P ammo better (more powerful) than the regular stuff? Absolutely!. Is it so powerful as to do damage to any gun ever made? Absolutely NOT! It's not going to happen--no way, no how!!
The ammunition companies are run by intelligent, well educated people who are acutely aware of their fate if their products injure a user, or damage a user's property. They spend BIG BUCKS maintaining risk management departments to see to it no such occurrences ever happen. Their back-up consists of "Loss Control Engineers" employed by their Products Liability insurers who hover like Mother Hens protecting their chicks to be damn sure there are no slip-ups! And woe betide the ammunition companies who incur such a loss, because their Products Liability insurance coverage will be long gone---and they will be out of business! That is unless they're so bone dead stupid as to continue operations without such protection----and they're not!
THINK!!
Ralph Tremaine
The only reason +P ammo is made is to sell it, and to increase the profit margins of those who make it. The only reason "+P rated" guns are made is to sell them and increase the profit margins of those who make them.
Bottom Line: Is +P ammo better (more powerful) than the regular stuff? Absolutely!. Is it so powerful as to do damage to any gun ever made? Absolutely NOT! It's not going to happen--no way, no how!!
The ammunition companies are run by intelligent, well educated people who are acutely aware of their fate if their products injure a user, or damage a user's property. They spend BIG BUCKS maintaining risk management departments to see to it no such occurrences ever happen. Their back-up consists of "Loss Control Engineers" employed by their Products Liability insurers who hover like Mother Hens protecting their chicks to be damn sure there are no slip-ups! And woe betide the ammunition companies who incur such a loss, because their Products Liability insurance coverage will be long gone---and they will be out of business! That is unless they're so bone dead stupid as to continue operations without such protection----and they're not!
THINK!!
Ralph Tremaine
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So then your opinion is that it is OK to fire Buffalo Bore and Underwood Ammo's hottest +P 38 specials in the oldest 38 special hand ejector out there, and do it as much as you like? And it's safe to do so?
Interesting...
Use dependable info.
It is a fact that SAAMI has established pressure guidelines for 38 special, and 38 spl. +p ammo. It is necessary to know which companies use those standards reliably. Underwood, Buffalo Bore, and (so I understand) Sellier and Bellot still can be depended upon to draw the line at 17,500 c.u.p. for 38 special. Sellier and Bellot lists a cartridge as 38 spl. which has a velocity faster than a +P from Hornady. It is believed that Hornady uses the +P designation only in a comparative sense as they also offer a slower load with the same bullet. Bear in mind that a 38 spl. cartridge at 17,501 c.u.p. must be marked +P if the manufacturer is a member of SAAMI. 20,000 c.u.p. for +P is the maximum.
Any cartridge loaded to below 17,500 chamber units of pressure is safe in any firearm marked 38 special that is otherwise safe. That is what 38 special means. The developers at Underwood have stated that their efforts are aimed at achieving velocity with various powders at lower chamber pressures. Smith and Wesson proof standards call for double pressure.
Litigation creep always goes in the wrong direction. With each successive lawsuit, manufacturers are pushed to make weaker, less effective rounds all in the name of safety. This continues unless someone finds a way to sue them for the failure of the too weak ammo. I can't picture that happening.
+P creep also goes in the wrong direction. Just like the chubby, soft soy boy who thinks his tattoos and piercings make him look tough, though it is obvious that he cannot open a pickle jar, that is how I see some of the "powerful plus P" rounds.
It is a fact that SAAMI has established pressure guidelines for 38 special, and 38 spl. +p ammo. It is necessary to know which companies use those standards reliably. Underwood, Buffalo Bore, and (so I understand) Sellier and Bellot still can be depended upon to draw the line at 17,500 c.u.p. for 38 special. Sellier and Bellot lists a cartridge as 38 spl. which has a velocity faster than a +P from Hornady. It is believed that Hornady uses the +P designation only in a comparative sense as they also offer a slower load with the same bullet. Bear in mind that a 38 spl. cartridge at 17,501 c.u.p. must be marked +P if the manufacturer is a member of SAAMI. 20,000 c.u.p. for +P is the maximum.
Any cartridge loaded to below 17,500 chamber units of pressure is safe in any firearm marked 38 special that is otherwise safe. That is what 38 special means. The developers at Underwood have stated that their efforts are aimed at achieving velocity with various powders at lower chamber pressures. Smith and Wesson proof standards call for double pressure.
Litigation creep always goes in the wrong direction. With each successive lawsuit, manufacturers are pushed to make weaker, less effective rounds all in the name of safety. This continues unless someone finds a way to sue them for the failure of the too weak ammo. I can't picture that happening.
+P creep also goes in the wrong direction. Just like the chubby, soft soy boy who thinks his tattoos and piercings make him look tough, though it is obvious that he cannot open a pickle jar, that is how I see some of the "powerful plus P" rounds.
Rpg
Member
Why in the world would you want to use +p ammo in an air weight J frame is beyond me.
The velocity increase with +p ammo in a 1 1/2” barreled revolver over standard velocity ammunition is trivial: it produces no observable benefit in terms of terminal effect on flesh and blood.
You’ll not damage your revolver by using it. However, +p ammo is sufficiently unpleasant to shoot in air weight J frames that it discourages practice.
The velocity increase with +p ammo in a 1 1/2” barreled revolver over standard velocity ammunition is trivial: it produces no observable benefit in terms of terminal effect on flesh and blood.
You’ll not damage your revolver by using it. However, +p ammo is sufficiently unpleasant to shoot in air weight J frames that it discourages practice.
Lots of good info on SAAMI, but IIRC, SAAMI standards didn't exist when the first 38 special hand ejectors were introduced.
Good info but not a direct answer to the question I asked.
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All correct. In fact even as a long time revolver shooter, I have been strongly considering an airweight J to replace my current micro compact auto.
Yesterday went to the range and tried out a 642 from the rental case there. They require you use ammo they supply in the rental guns, and it was typical 130 FMJ range loads.
While not abusive, it was enough recoil even for this experienced shooter to know when I do finally buy an alloy J, standard pressure ammo is the answer.
Many years ago a friend bought one of the first super light J’s ( scandium with Ti cylinder. I shot one cylinder of plus P 38 and said it was enough.
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Yes, any modern production J Frame will handle +P ammo. That said, I'd personally shoot some of what you are going to carry (the +P) to get used to it and find out it's characteristics out of you particular revolver.
After that, I'd stick mostly to standard velocity ammo. Whenever you use more potent ammo in any firearm you will of course wear it at a faster rate than if you used standard velocity ammo. Not saying it will blow up your gun - it won't, but more powerful ammo will wear and stretch metal at a higher rate than less powerful ammo will.
After that, I'd stick mostly to standard velocity ammo. Whenever you use more potent ammo in any firearm you will of course wear it at a faster rate than if you used standard velocity ammo. Not saying it will blow up your gun - it won't, but more powerful ammo will wear and stretch metal at a higher rate than less powerful ammo will.
I have a 649-2 that was made in 1993. In the literature that came with it from the factory, it was the only "J" frame was rated for +P ammunition. I will post a photo of the page when I can dig out the box, but I have posted it before. That revolver was the last brand new revolver I purchased, and the only small frame revolver I own, so I can't comment on any made beyond that year, but many shooters use the +P in guns not rated for it on a limited basis without issue.
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I can testify to that. I shot a few +P out of my buddy's airweight and the recoil felt about the same as shooting 357 magnum out of my all steel J-frame. Not pleasant or fun.
My 649-2 is a little newer. It shipped on May 1, 1996.
Here's the pertinent information included with the gun (clicking on the photos will enlarge the view):
A closer view of the J Frame list:
My 649-2:
Why?
I know the answer to this...I think.
The Hornady Critical Defense 38 spl +P 110 grain cartridge has a box published velocity of 1090 fps. Out of a j frame snub it registers on a chronograph at around 940 fps at a distance of under ten feet. It penetrates on average 13.1 inches in FBI standards gel with classic reliable expansion. The same round at standard pressure registers a velocity of 858 fps with average penetration of 14.1 inches because some rounds do not expand. (LuckyGunner.com Labs 38/357 Testing)
Some YouTubers did some gel testing of these rounds at 7 yards. Sorry, but going back now I cannot find who exactly was doing this. Their videos show no expansion of the XTP bullet at standard pressure out to 7 yards. Some of the +P rounds did expand at that distance but not reliably. In other words, from my Model 38 Airweight Bodyguard, the FTX bullet, the one with the little red plug in it, if loaded to +P pressure could almost move fast enough to expand at 7 yards through four inches of denim, etc etc.
I agree with you in principle about the difference being negligible, but I also think that the felt recoil difference is also negligible. Frankly I do not relate to the whole felt recoil issue. I have a Hogue Monogrip on my 38 and it is a pleasure to shoot. It is highly subjective with some psychology involved. "Wow! This super dooper +P ammo really kicks!" My friend's or family's reaction to recoil is directly proportional to the perceived loudness of the bang. My daughters/wife would shoot any handgun if they used foam plugs under properly fitted earmuffs which were not held slightly open by the safety glasses' temple tips. In other words, they only complained about how it kicked when it was too loud.
Success at the range is what encourages practice. What really discourages practice is those Hornady Critical Defense cartridges costing $1.28 per round. If five thousand of those cause my Airweight to shoot loose, then I'll buy another one. After an ammo expenditure of $6,848.00, assuming free shipping, I think I'll have learned to control the recoil. The price of the replacement revolver is nothing. (No this is NOT what I am gonna do!)
Barrels are usually about 2 inches not 1.5", but anyway, the XTP round literally does not expand at even 10 fps below its minimum threshold. I want a test with that +P round moving the gel and the chrono foot by foot measuring expansion and velocity at each distance. You are right if you are saying this factor is NOT the decisive one in a self-defense encounter! "Poor Joe. If he'd shot that bad guy with a +P instead of that standard pressure round, he'd be alive today...(wiping away a tear) Oh Joe, why didn't you carry a 45?!"
I know the answer to this...I think.
The Hornady Critical Defense 38 spl +P 110 grain cartridge has a box published velocity of 1090 fps. Out of a j frame snub it registers on a chronograph at around 940 fps at a distance of under ten feet. It penetrates on average 13.1 inches in FBI standards gel with classic reliable expansion. The same round at standard pressure registers a velocity of 858 fps with average penetration of 14.1 inches because some rounds do not expand. (LuckyGunner.com Labs 38/357 Testing)
Some YouTubers did some gel testing of these rounds at 7 yards. Sorry, but going back now I cannot find who exactly was doing this. Their videos show no expansion of the XTP bullet at standard pressure out to 7 yards. Some of the +P rounds did expand at that distance but not reliably. In other words, from my Model 38 Airweight Bodyguard, the FTX bullet, the one with the little red plug in it, if loaded to +P pressure could almost move fast enough to expand at 7 yards through four inches of denim, etc etc.
I agree with you in principle about the difference being negligible, but I also think that the felt recoil difference is also negligible. Frankly I do not relate to the whole felt recoil issue. I have a Hogue Monogrip on my 38 and it is a pleasure to shoot. It is highly subjective with some psychology involved. "Wow! This super dooper +P ammo really kicks!" My friend's or family's reaction to recoil is directly proportional to the perceived loudness of the bang. My daughters/wife would shoot any handgun if they used foam plugs under properly fitted earmuffs which were not held slightly open by the safety glasses' temple tips. In other words, they only complained about how it kicked when it was too loud.
Success at the range is what encourages practice. What really discourages practice is those Hornady Critical Defense cartridges costing $1.28 per round. If five thousand of those cause my Airweight to shoot loose, then I'll buy another one. After an ammo expenditure of $6,848.00, assuming free shipping, I think I'll have learned to control the recoil. The price of the replacement revolver is nothing. (No this is NOT what I am gonna do!)
Barrels are usually about 2 inches not 1.5", but anyway, the XTP round literally does not expand at even 10 fps below its minimum threshold. I want a test with that +P round moving the gel and the chrono foot by foot measuring expansion and velocity at each distance. You are right if you are saying this factor is NOT the decisive one in a self-defense encounter! "Poor Joe. If he'd shot that bad guy with a +P instead of that standard pressure round, he'd be alive today...(wiping away a tear) Oh Joe, why didn't you carry a 45?!"
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To piggy back on the Brian post, I have attended both “revolver roundup” events at gunsite in Arizona, which is a 3 day seminar on the history and current use of the revolver from a defensive perspective, with a lot of focus on the snubs.
At this event, ammo testing out of a snub into properly prepared and calibrated gelatin with the protocol drive amount of denim cover etc was performed. Every load on hand provided by the instructors and students was tested. About 40 different 38 loads overall.
The simple bottom line with HP’s regardless of pressure level in short barrels:
If it expands it won’t penetrate
If it penetrates it won’t expand
Almost every HP when shot through denim clogged and didn’t expand
The ultimate recommendation, confirmed with testing and in the opinion of the instructors?
Standard old fashioned full wadcutter target ammo.
There are several solid reasons for this
Shoot to point of aim or close in most guns
Light recoil that is manageable for faster follow up shots
Readily available and not expensive ( cheap enough to shoot a lot and get proficient with)
Consistently meets FBI penetration standards
At least in theory, the sharp bullet cuts tissue it contacts causing more damage. The more round nose profiles ( even HP) tend to push tissue out of the way to snap back unharmed/ Undamaged
NONE of the super expensive HP’s combined adequate penetration with the textbook rose petal expansion you see in the ammo advertisements
At this event, ammo testing out of a snub into properly prepared and calibrated gelatin with the protocol drive amount of denim cover etc was performed. Every load on hand provided by the instructors and students was tested. About 40 different 38 loads overall.
The simple bottom line with HP’s regardless of pressure level in short barrels:
If it expands it won’t penetrate
If it penetrates it won’t expand
Almost every HP when shot through denim clogged and didn’t expand
The ultimate recommendation, confirmed with testing and in the opinion of the instructors?
Standard old fashioned full wadcutter target ammo.
There are several solid reasons for this
Shoot to point of aim or close in most guns
Light recoil that is manageable for faster follow up shots
Readily available and not expensive ( cheap enough to shoot a lot and get proficient with)
Consistently meets FBI penetration standards
At least in theory, the sharp bullet cuts tissue it contacts causing more damage. The more round nose profiles ( even HP) tend to push tissue out of the way to snap back unharmed/ Undamaged
NONE of the super expensive HP’s combined adequate penetration with the textbook rose petal expansion you see in the ammo advertisements
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