Titanium versus Scandium

107driver · Mar 29, 2024

Hello all,

I’m wondering what might’ve caused Smith & Wesson to change from titanium to scandium in their frames, say for example the 342 to the current 640. For that matter, why they have dropped the 342 from their current lineup; I would assume it’s just due to lack of demand and streamlining the lineup.

Frailer · Mar 29, 2024

I’m not sure what you’re asking. To my knowledge S&W has never made titanium-framed revolvers.

The AirLite models have typically had (with some exceptions) frames of aluminum/scandium alloy and titanium cylinders. The 640 you mention is all-steel.

Beju · Mar 29, 2024

The 342Ti and PD had titanium cylinders, not titanium frames. You still buy the 340PD, 360PD, 327, and 329 with titanium cylinders.

FWIU, the 342 was made due to some police departments requesting a version of the 340 that was .38 Special +P only. It takes fewer guaranteed sales than many think for S&W to make a simple change like that (just ream the cylinder for .38 Special instead of .357 Magnum).

surfgun · Mar 29, 2024

The only titanium framed revolvers that were mass produced was by Taurus.

cmj8591 · Mar 29, 2024

S&W never made titanium frames. They make titanium cylinders. Scandium frames are actually aluminum with a small amount of scandium added to make it stronger. If they used just scandium, the frame would be too brittle. I think they have moved away from the titanium cylinders because of costs.

This is an early 360 with a scandium frame and titanium cylinder.

murphydog · Mar 29, 2024

Agree. I have the impression that the “scandium frame” was more of a marketing strategy, as it had no more than a small amount of that element in the frame.

JimCunn · Mar 30, 2024

"I have the impression that the “scandium frame” was more of a marketing strategy, as it had no more than a small amount of that element in the frame."

0.5-1% of scandium will add about 15% to the strength of an aluminum frame.

cmj8591 · Mar 30, 2024

JimCunn said:
"I have the impression that the “scandium frame” was more of a marketing strategy, as it had no more than a small amount of that element in the frame."

0.5-1% of scandium will add about 15% to the strength of an aluminum frame.

That 15% is enough to be able to use that frame for a high pressure round like the 357. Until they started using scandium, they only had steel frame J's in 357. It allowed them to make a more powerful gun lighter.

steelslaver · Mar 30, 2024

murphydog said:
Agree. I have the impression that the “scandium frame” was more of a marketing strategy, as it had no more than a small amount of that element in the frame.

You are very mistaken

Scandium works as a grain refiner in aluminum and amounts as small as .5% can nearly double the strength of an aluminum alloy. The best Scandium/aluminum alloys give a yield strength of 450Mpa where 6061 aluminum alloy like used in AR uppers and lowers and regular alloy J frames has a yield strength of just 240Mpa

Very small amounts of other elements can have huge effects on the parent metal.

For instance it only takes a very small increase in the amount of carbon to turn mild steel into tool steel. Mild steel has less than .2% and a quality file has just .95%, yet the increase in hardness is multiple times more.

Blue gun steel is usually some type of 4140 to 4160. Which just has .4% -.6% carbon, 1% chrome and 1% manganese and only about .2% Molybdenum Yet they call it chrome moly and it can have has a yield strength of up to 700 Mpa where mild steel has a yield strength of 240 Mpa

Spring steel 5160 has just .6% carbon, 1% chrome and 1% Manganese yet it is has a way higher yield strength (950Mpa) than mild steel (240)

Old cop · Mar 30, 2024

I’ve had the no lock 340PD over ten years, hundreds of mostly .38 +P rounds and never a single problem. It carries like a feather but shooting magnum rounds is too punishing for me.

smoothshooter · Mar 30, 2024

I have read that scandium is one of the rarest elements on Earth.
Along with tritium.

steelslaver · Mar 30, 2024

Pure scandium is hard to come by, but they use scandium oxide when they alloy with it and last year there was about 30 tons of scandium oxide produced last year. But, since 2010 the price has fluctuated widely from $4000 to 20,000 per kilo for 99.99% which probably explains why S&W doesn't use it very often.

107driver · Mar 30, 2024

Sorry I totally goofed there; I meant to type 340PD, not 640.

cmj8591 · Mar 31, 2024

During my Army days, I made a quick stop at New Cumberland Army Depot near Harrisburg, Pa.. There was a large hill that wrapped around part of the post that looked really out of place as most of the area was flat. One of the civilians working there told us that it was scandium ore from Russia and had been given to the US as payment for some Lend/Lease equipment. I really didn't think much of it at the time but I remember thinking that we gave them tanks and planes and they paid with a pile of dirt.

murphydog · Mar 31, 2024

steelslaver said:
You are very mistaken

Scandium works as a grain refiner in aluminum and amounts as small as .5% can nearly double the strength of an aluminum alloy. The best Scandium/aluminum alloys give a yield strength of 450Mpa where 6061 aluminum alloy like used in AR uppers and lowers and regular alloy J frames has a yield strength of just 240Mpa

Very small amounts of other elements can have huge effects on the parent metal.

For instance it only takes a very small increase in the amount of carbon to turn mild steel into tool steel. Mild steel has less than .2% and a quality file has just .95%, yet the increase in hardness is multiple times more.

Blue gun steel is usually some type of 4140 to 4160. Which just has .4% -.6% carbon, 1% chrome and 1% manganese and only about .2% Molybdenum Yet they call it chrome moly and it can have has a yield strength of up to 700 Mpa where mild steel has a yield strength of 240 Mpa

Spring steel 5160 has just .6% carbon, 1% chrome and 1% Manganese yet it is has a way higher yield strength (950Mpa) than mild steel (240)

Thank you for the extra information.

But S & W makes a standard aluminum alloy J frame in .357 - is the scandium frame version more durable or stronger?

steelslaver · Mar 31, 2024

I doubt any alloy J frame 357 doesn't have scandium in it. They only put the atom deal on those with TI cylinders. S&W first started using Scandium alloy in before they started in with the advertising them as such. Supposedly S&W has its own patented recipe for making it

YES a scandium frame would be both stronger and more durable than even the highest grade aluminum alloy without it (7075) mostly because the scandium will cause the alloy to have a much finer grain. It only takes .33% to significantly increase its strength.

Go read some metallurgy studies on it. They all report increase strength

murphydog · Mar 31, 2024

Thanks again. I’m afraid metallurgy papers would go right over my head.

cmj8591 · Mar 31, 2024

murphydog said:
Thank you for the extra information.

But S & W makes a standard aluminum alloy J frame in .357 - is the scandium frame version more durable or stronger?

I think if you look, you'll find that if it's a 357 J frame, it's either aluminum/scandium alloy or stainless steel. I think the only time they mention the scandium or mark the frame "scandium" is when it's a lightweight model with a titanium cylinder. The model 340 (not the PD) has scandium but it isn't stamped and you would probably have to read into the description to find it.

joebuck · Mar 31, 2024

Scandium has to increase the aluminum frames strength. This is one time when it's not just 100% marketing hype. There is NO WAY the J, L and N frames in .357 and .44 mag would last with full power loads just with a standard aluminum frame.

Beju · Mar 31, 2024

steelslaver said:
Supposedly S&W has its own patented recipe for making it

Yes, though the patent expired in 2021.

The alloy is composed of 0.05% to 0.15% scandium, 7.5% to 8.3% zinc, 1.6% to 2.2% magnesium, 1.6% to 2.0% copper, 0.02% to 0.04% chromium, 0.05% to 0.15% zirconium, and 87 to 90% aluminum.

US6711819B2 - Scandium containing aluminum alloy firearm
- Google Patents

Titanium versus Scandium

Member

US Veteran

Member

Member

Member

Moderator

Member

Member

US Veteran

US Veteran

Member

US Veteran

Member

Member

Moderator

US Veteran

Moderator

Member

Member

Member

Similar threads