Hello all,

I’m wondering what might’ve caused Smith & Wesson to change from titanium to scandium in their frames, say for example the 342 to the current 640. For that matter, why they have dropped the 342 from their current lineup; I would assume it’s just due to lack of demand and streamlining the lineup.

I’m not sure what you’re asking. To my knowledge S&W has never made titanium-framed revolvers.

The AirLite models have typically had (with some exceptions) frames of aluminum/scandium alloy and titanium cylinders. The 640 you mention is all-steel.

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Mark Lathem

The 342Ti and PD had titanium cylinders, not titanium frames. You still buy the 340PD, 360PD, 327, and 329 with titanium cylinders.

FWIU, the 342 was made due to some police departments requesting a version of the 340 that was .38 Special +P only. It takes fewer guaranteed sales than many think for S&W to make a simple change like that (just ream the cylinder for .38 Special instead of .357 Magnum).

The only titanium framed revolvers that were mass produced was by Taurus.

S&W never made titanium frames. They make titanium cylinders. Scandium frames are actually aluminum with a small amount of scandium added to make it stronger. If they used just scandium, the frame would be too brittle. I think they have moved away from the titanium cylinders because of costs.

This is an early 360 with a scandium frame and titanium cylinder.

Agree. I have the impression that the “scandium frame” was more of a marketing strategy, as it had no more than a small amount of that element in the frame.

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

"I have the impression that the “scandium frame” was more of a marketing strategy, as it had no more than a small amount of that element in the frame."

0.5-1% of scandium will add about 15% to the strength of an aluminum frame.

That 15% is enough to be able to use that frame for a high pressure round like the 357. Until they started using scandium, they only had steel frame J's in 357. It allowed them to make a more powerful gun lighter.

You are very mistaken

Scandium works as a grain refiner in aluminum and amounts as small as .5% can nearly double the strength of an aluminum alloy. The best Scandium/aluminum alloys give a yield strength of 450Mpa where 6061 aluminum alloy like used in AR uppers and lowers and regular alloy J frames has a yield strength of just 240Mpa

Very small amounts of other elements can have huge effects on the parent metal.

For instance it only takes a very small increase in the amount of carbon to turn mild steel into tool steel. Mild steel has less than .2% and a quality file has just .95%, yet the increase in hardness is multiple times more.

Blue gun steel is usually some type of 4140 to 4160. Which just has .4% -.6% carbon, 1% chrome and 1% manganese and only about .2% Molybdenum Yet they call it chrome moly and it can have has a yield strength of up to 700 Mpa where mild steel has a yield strength of 240 Mpa

Spring steel 5160 has just .6% carbon, 1% chrome and 1% Manganese yet it is has a way higher yield strength (950Mpa) than mild steel (240)

I’ve had the no lock 340PD over ten years, hundreds of mostly .38 +P rounds and never a single problem. It carries like a feather but shooting magnum rounds is too punishing for me.

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Old Cop
LEO (Ret.)

I have read that scandium is one of the rarest elements on Earth.
Along with tritium.

Pure scandium is hard to come by, but they use scandium oxide when they alloy with it and last year there was about 30 tons of scandium oxide produced last year. But, since 2010 the price has fluctuated widely from $4000 to 20,000 per kilo for 99.99% which probably explains why S&W doesn't use it very often.

Sorry I totally goofed there; I meant to type 340PD, not 640.

During my Army days, I made a quick stop at New Cumberland Army Depot near Harrisburg, Pa.. There was a large hill that wrapped around part of the post that looked really out of place as most of the area was flat. One of the civilians working there told us that it was scandium ore from Russia and had been given to the US as payment for some Lend/Lease equipment. I really didn't think much of it at the time but I remember thinking that we gave them tanks and planes and they paid with a pile of dirt.

Thank you for the extra information.

But S & W makes a standard aluminum alloy J frame in .357 - is the scandium frame version more durable or stronger?

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

I doubt any alloy J frame 357 doesn't have scandium in it. They only put the atom deal on those with TI cylinders. S&W first started using Scandium alloy in before they started in with the advertising them as such. Supposedly S&W has its own patented recipe for making it

YES a scandium frame would be both stronger and more durable than even the highest grade aluminum alloy without it (7075) mostly because the scandium will cause the alloy to have a much finer grain. It only takes .33% to significantly increase its strength.

Go read some metallurgy studies on it. They all report increase strength

Thanks again. I’m afraid metallurgy papers would go right over my head.

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

I think if you look, you'll find that if it's a 357 J frame, it's either aluminum/scandium alloy or stainless steel. I think the only time they mention the scandium or mark the frame "scandium" is when it's a lightweight model with a titanium cylinder. The model 340 (not the PD) has scandium but it isn't stamped and you would probably have to read into the description to find it.

Scandium has to increase the aluminum frames strength. This is one time when it's not just 100% marketing hype. There is NO WAY the J, L and N frames in .357 and .44 mag would last with full power loads just with a standard aluminum frame.

Yes, though the patent expired in 2021.

The alloy is composed of 0.05% to 0.15% scandium, 7.5% to 8.3% zinc, 1.6% to 2.2% magnesium, 1.6% to 2.0% copper, 0.02% to 0.04% chromium, 0.05% to 0.15% zirconium, and 87 to 90% aluminum.

US6711819B2 - Scandium containing aluminum alloy firearm
- Google Patents

It's that way for most people, the marketing guys counted on that. Scandium is a marketing tool. But thats cool. If someone will pay a ton more for it, maybe it will keep the costs of the gun I want down.

Of course I'm not wanting to buy a J-frame that's as light as I can get it and then stuff .357 Mags in it. However I would like to get a Model 60 and have the .357 option if I so desired.

In the meantime when I want to carry something that small, I have to settle for a Model 36 No Dash I bought 46 years ago loaded with .38+P Hydra Shoks.

Scandium in alloy revolvers allows use of magnum cartridges in a lightweight package. Scandium in the SW1911s is functionally a marketing tool for all but super-high round count shooters who might actually crack an aluminum frame.

FYI, if you're talking about the old 129 gr +P Hydra-Shok and not the new 130 gr +P Hydra Shok Deep line, that old Hydra-Shok usually doesn't expand from 2" barrels. There's an argument that 148gr wadcutters would have better terminal ballistics with their sharp leading edge while having less recoil.

As always here, I am humbled and appreciative of the expertise--and civility in the face of inexperience.

As to part II of my question, any idea why they no longer produce the 342?

S&W doesn't sell huge amounts of scandium J-frames (at least not compared to 642/442 variants), so there's probably not a strong business case for more than the 4 current variations (340PD, 340PD no-lock, 360 PD, 340 M&P) that they have.

If a firearms distributor wanted to order 100+ 342s, S&W would probably bring back the 342, at least as a distributor exclusive. It would just be a different coating on the no-lock scandium J-frame, and using the new 642UC's stainless barrel shroud.

It's important to remember that the end user isn't S&W's main customer. Customer importance starts with the distributors, then the gun stores, then police departments, then Joe on the street.

Smith & Wesson 329 Airlite, Scandium/Aluminum alloy frame, titanium cylinder.

About half the weight of a standard 29 or 629.

https://smith-wessonforum.com/attach...1&d=1720399999

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IMG_5211.jpg (87.1 KB, 26 views)

Here is a full titanium Taurus 450T Tracker in 45 Colt. The ammo weighs about as much as the gun!

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T450T 45.jpg (44.5 KB, 21 views)

When scandium revolvers first came out I read the sole source of the mineral was Russia. I hope S&W has a big stockpile of it somewhere if they want to keep selling 340s.

The Sc alloy guns are not currently listed on the S & W website. Don't know if they are on a production pause or discontinued.

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

The website must've been having issues when you looked, because I'm seeing the new 327 WR, 340PD, M&P 340, Governor (didn't even know about that one), 327 snub and TRR8, R8, 360 PD, and 329 PD listed on there when I searched scandium frame revolvers.

The only two handguns that come up with “Scandium” in the search function are two 1911 pistols. The revolvers mentioned may be alloy but aluminum framed or with titanium (cylinders).

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

Aluminum, scandium or 220, 221, whatever it takes. I sure enjoy my 342PD for summer carry while wearing shorts; I appreciate my 396 for its same qualities. Definitely meant to be carried more than shot.

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	1A479A46-64B2-4E18-B408-101FA7478F2A.jpg (147.9 KB, 18 views)

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213th FBINA

That sounds like you're searching under "Pistols" instead of "Revolvers."

The revolvers I mentioned are scandium alloy frames (0.05% to 0.15% scandium, 7.5% to 8.3% zinc, 1.6% to 2.2% magnesium, 1.6% to 2.0% copper, 0.02% to 0.04% chromium, 0.05% to 0.15% zirconium, and 87 to 90% aluminum per US patent US6711819B2) with titanium or steel cylinders (in the case of the M&P 340).

And here is a Taurus 617 TTi (TTi=Total Titanium)
Titanium frame and cylinder. Only the lockworks and barrel liner are made of steel.
7-shot 357 magnum that weighs just under 20 ounces empty and less than 24 ounces when fully loaded with 7 rounds of 158gr 357 magnum ammo.
Just for comparison, a steel 5-shot J-frame weighs more EMPTY than this one does when fully loaded with 7 rounds.
Its a handful, but the ported barrel actually helps tame recoil a LOT.

Attached Images

617.jpg (53.0 KB, 10 views)

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Regarding the 396 (44 special): I know the literature says the frame is aluminum - any chance it's actually scandium?

Such an informative thread. I learn much about the scandium and titanium metals in my 360PD. Thanks for the education.

Titanium is an amazing material.

Stronger per pound than pretty much any other metal known to man.

I can twist my titanium-framed glasses into a pretzel and when I let go of them they snap right back into their original shape like nothing ever happened.

I don't think there is any other metal with comparable yield strength or "memory".

Pretty incredible stuff.

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