Slow timing on one cylinder - can fix?

Mod. 36 showing very little use. All cylinders lock up nicely just before the hammer fully cocks, except one. Stops just a little short of locking up. I assume the lobe for that position was somehow machined just a little too far.

Can this be corrected on the existing piece? Can any material be added to the lobe surface? Maybe a tiny bit of metal heat-brazed on that one lobe to speed up the timing?

Are we talking about a theoretical problem that is only visible when playing with the empty gun and maybe even putting a finger on the cylinder, or are we talking about a real problem that keeps the gun from functioning when firing it normally?

I'm a revolver shooter, not a gunsmith, but if anybody even suggested "adding metal" to a star, I'd never let them hold one of my revolvers again.

It can be fixed by a competent gunsmith, might require fitting a new hand but you probably can get by with just some fitting on the ratchet. This is not a job for an amateur!

Actual problem, not theoretical, the timing is slow at one position when cocking with no drag applied, and I have always been warned that it is an out-of-spec condition and potentially dangerous. I frequently fire single action at the range or in the field, so firing an unlocked cylinder is a real possibility at this stage.

And I would have no concern whatsoever adding metal to the faulty lobe if that is the way these issues are addressed. I was hoping the star would not have to be changed out, nor a larger hand installed, which would presumably speed up all the positions at the same time.

Carry up

Assuming the ratchet in question is not damaged, and the gun is in otherwise good repair (no end shake) and clean, the usual fix would be to install a slightly oversized hand. The current regular j-frame (model 36) hands (pt# 21233) usually run around .073-.075" in width. The oversized hands, listed as "obsolete" in the online parts list...... come in at around .078".
You could mic your current hand to see what the width is, then attempt to locate a replacement that is .001 - .002" wider.
Keep in mind that if you install the wider hand to fix carry up on the offending charge hole, the other ratchets will probably have to be modified/re-fit to accomodate the newly installed wider hand.
I would try a complete tear down and cleaning/inspection prior to this repair/installation, to insure there are no other possible causes.

In a related thread a guy mentioned possibly peening the offending lobe to enlarge it slightly, but it seems like the force required would be significant, and it would be easy for the blow to cause a stress or bend on another part of the star.

Has anyone heard of that peening method?

But it does kind of seem less final than the OS hand correcting one position and then having 4 others (J frame) to fix...

I would install a new hand & go from there. It wont cost much. I like post 5.

I will mic some spare hands and see... and in the meantime, just thinking of alternatives, could a tiny layer of JB Weld on the lobe that is too small, be enough to speed up that one position and be hard enough to stand the normal wear?

The answer to your question in post 8 is an emphatic no.

Are you slow cocking the hammer and coming to this conclusion?

Does it carry up fine when you dry fire it in double action mode?

If it locks up fine in double action firing and while cocking the hammer at a normal speed then I would say leave it alone.

The oversize hand may cure the one slow position but may cause excessive advanced timing on the others which can lead to several mechanical problems and negatively effect the quality of the double action trigger pull.

Have you tried it with a couple or more empty cases in the cylinder?

Are the extractor alignment pins in the cylinder in good shape?

I once traded off a new King Cobra that had that same problem.My fault for not checking a new gun before buying.

This is really quite easy to fix. If you have a copy look in Pat Sweeney's "Gunsmithing Pistols & Revolvers", 2nd Ed.(2004), pp.219-220. The peening is easily done (make sure you are on the correct ratchet tooth), but you need a good pistol vise to properly complete the job.
I'm far from being any type of gunsmith, but I have done this repair on several revolvers that I bought used, and after many years none so repaired have required further adjustment. If you are not comfortable doing this yourself a gunsmith should charge only a small amount, as the job takes only about 15 minutes. Good luck.

The alignment pins are as new, almost no play in the ejector when seated.

The problem is not affected by cases in the cylinders.

I think it locks on quick DA work, but that is hard to verify.

I'll read up on the peening. I could change the hand probably, although I find no lateral play in the current hand in the window, but I am wary of threatening the timing of the other 4 positions yet.

OMG.......

Trooperdan said:

It can be fixed by a competent gunsmith, might require fitting a new hand but you probably can get by with just some fitting on the ratchet. This is not a job for an amateur!

Click to expand...

Here is your answer ^^^

The timing problem may be able to be fixed in several ways- peening, adding JB Weld, etc. However, given that you said the 36 shows little use, and is presumably in good cosmetic condition, why not take it to someone who is trained to repair revolvers? Unless you're really good, adding JB Weld will be noticeable. Also, peening requires a special vise. One slip in a jury rigged vise and you've damaged an otherwise perfectly good gun.

If the gun was finish worn or mechanically worn I'd say go ahead and use it as a learning tool. But if it's as nice as you say, spend a few bucks to have it done right the first time.

Don't worry about it.....

when actually shooting your gun are you going to slowly pull the hammer back or simply quickly cock the gun? If you're going to shoot the piece in any kind of normal matter, the hand will move the cylinder sufficiently to lock without doing anything to alter the piece. This is one of those real "non-problems" that folks tend to endlessly worry about.

tacotime said:

Mod. 36 showing very little use. All cylinders lock up nicely just before the hammer fully cocks, except one. Stops just a little short of locking up. I assume the lobe for that position was somehow machined just a little too far.

Can this be corrected on the existing piece? Can any material be added to the lobe surface? Maybe a tiny bit of metal heat-brazed on that one lobe to speed up the timing?

Click to expand...

tacotime,

Every time this comes up we get posts like many of the above with people who get their hair on fire over such a simple thing. From the 'parts changers' to the 'gold plated solutions' to the "sky is falling' to those that 'have no idea' about this issue but think they have a need to comment, to the crowd that say that what good competent gunsmiths have been doing for 100 years is now all bogus! I'm continually amazed.

There are several solutions and the correct one for your gun should be proportional to your needs. Your gun parts are certainly not worn out with only one tooth needing attention and as tight as you describe.

Frankly, based on your assessment and comments, I believe MG34/bar has posted the most sensible, and perfectly good solution AND what I would do, what I have done many times, what a S&W factory trained smith has done in similar situations, and what members on this forum have done successfully after reading this, which is:

Peening the ratchet tooth (or teeth) to correct timing/cyl ‘carry up’. It's so simple, but you're the only one to decide if you can manage it.

Replacing the hand may fix your problem but the hand is not likely needed or at fault.
The flat surfaces of the teeth facing you are where to peen. The tooth at about 3 o'clock is the next to be engaged by the hand when cyl is closed to advance the chamber, at the right of the one at 12 o’clock, into firing position. The cylinder turns counterclockwise so the hand will engage the 'bottom side' of that tooth. The flat surface facing you is where to peen, on the edge right above the bottom side of the tooth. No need to take the gun apart at all. I lay the gun on a padded surface on its right side, muzzle pointing to the left (I’m right handed) with cyl propped open with a rolled up shop cloth.

Here's a photo of the cylinder & star:


You may not even see the metal deform and it can be enough to solve the problem. One light tap with a small light hammer and flat face punch, then close the cylinder and try it. If the cylinder doesn't ‘carry up’ or even if it does F/U but still has too much 'looseness' when fully cocked, give the tooth another tap. You can do all six teeth, or just others where there's looseness with the chamber in firing position. Rough handling/constant double action rapid fire can accelerate the teeth wear but it did not happen overnight, and now you have another 10 years of shooting before it'll need anything more, depending of course on how much you shoot the gun. If you peen too much and the cylinder carries up too far and the bolt 'jumps' out of the cyl notch, not a problem, peen the surface that the hand contacts and push it back.

Make sure the edges of the cylinder notches are not burred out or the cyl bolt can pop out of the notch. Slight peening can fix that as well.

The gun would almost exclusively be used for slow cock target use, with the occasional slow-cocked small varmint shot in the woods, so the slow timed cylinder is not really a non-issue, although it's not a huge issue either.

Since the gun is nearly new I am wary of changing the hand and possibly end up trading one bad position for four that need work. I'll look at peening. I think I can can see that the offending lobe is smaller than the others. It might not take much reshaping to get this guy right.

But wait - I do have two spare hands I can try and remove again if not working. So if I try these and it speeds up the other 4 positions, how will I know if they are too far ahead of timing then? A binding up of the hammer when almost fully cocked?

All comments are appreciated...

attn tacotime

Cool handle! I could use a taco right about now. As to the matter at hand: I'm a person who does as little as possible. Translation: I do nothing. Why should I when I can pay qualified people to do it for me? You see where this is going. My point is: take it to a gunsmith and don't agonize over it any further. Please.

Kaaskop49
Shield #5103

I see... you would rather buy a taco than make your own... maybe me too, but I am mechanically inclined and enjoy learning about shadetree gunsmithing, and take pride in successfully completing a number of repairs over the years, some of which were not so simple.

With the great resource of so many experienced gunners here, I hate to give up and learn very little from the situation. Also I prefer not to part with the funds and shops around here are taking like 3 months or more to turn around a small job. I would have 3 months to hope nobody breaks in over there and I never see the little MOD 36 again...

That said, at certain times I will go to the 10 minute oil change if I can't get the time to do it and it's well past due, which is maybe 1% of the time. But my dad never would have paid anyone for that and he fixed himself everything that broke in our house and cars and I do not ever recall a repair man visiting our house all the time I grew up. I'd like to carry on that tradition to the extent I can. Note - I draw the line at self-performed brain surgery though. That I will not try again after that last episode!