Tight cylinder charge holes on .357 Magnum

Hello all: I have a situation I need some help on. About six months ago I bought a very nice .357 Magnum serial number S95473, 8 3/8 barrel. It appears hardly ever, if ever fired, but had a couple of scratches on the barrel that appear to be caused by a sharp metal object. Not collector quality, but still a great looking gun. No turn line, no cartridge marks on face of frame.

Upon firing I found that I had to pound the empties out of the cylinder. One chamber was pretty good, the other five were most difficult. This with several different brands of factory ammo. My reloads with coated 158 grain bullets and 13 grains of 2400 acted the same way.

Today, I tried to insert empty cartridges from my reload that I shot from 27-2 that extracted easily. I am attaching a picture (i hope). One chamber would readily accept the fired cartridges. The other chambers varied from a not much to a little in accepting the empties. I tried measuring the chambers with a caliper. OK, maybe not the best way, but I think I can get pretty close. The chamber where the empty completely inserted measured .379 the rest measured .3785, .376,.379, .379, and .379. But, that is at the insertion point, not where they are sticking. I measured the throats and they are almost uniform at .356.

I measured the insertion points of the cylinder the empties were fired from and they ran .3785 to .380. I also ran the empties through several other .357 Magnums I have. They pretty easily went into a 1935 RM, a couple of 1950s .357s, a 627 PC and would not quite go entirely into a 627-5.

I removed the extractor, thinking that might be part of the problem. The empties would insert farther without the extractor, but would still stick out about 3/4 of an inch.

Chambers are clean, no .38 ring, timing is good, chambers line up with barrel, no endshake, etc. No visual indication of any problems in the chambers, no tactile indication of bulging.

It seems to me that I have five tight chambers. Any ideas? Can the cylinder be reamed? Who would do it? I do not want to replace the cylinder.

I would appreciate any observations or questions.

Thanks for reading all this.

Today, I tried to insert empty cartridges from my reload that I shot from 27-2 that extracted easily. I am attaching a picture (i hope). One chamber would readily accept the fired cartridges

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Putting fired cartridges from one gun into another is not a valid test. I have 2 66s, and fired cartridges from one will not go into the other, but both are within SAAMI spec.

If SAAMI spec loaded cartridges will load in your cylinder, size is not the issue. In general, slightly small straight cylinders will NOT by themselves cause sticky extraction.

Suggest you try SAAMI spec commercial ammunition and eliminate possible non-standard reload problems before messing with the gun.
I am not a gunsmith, just a long-time revolver shooter.

OKFC05 said:

Putting fired cartridges from one gun into another is not a valid test. I have 2 66s, and fired cartridges from one will not go into the other, but both are within SAAMI spec.

If SAAMI spec loaded cartridges will load in your cylinder, size is not the issue. In general, slightly small straight cylinders will NOT by themselves cause sticky extraction.

Suggest you try SAAMI spec commercial ammunition and eliminate possible non-standard reload problems before messing with the gun.
I am not a gunsmith, just a long-time revolver shooter.

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Perhaps you missed the part where I explained that I initially shot several brands of factory .357 ammunition before shooting reloads. All ammo had very hard extraction.

I appreciate your responding, Thanks.

Nightowl said:

Perhaps you missed the part where I explained that I initially shot several brands of factory .357 ammunition before shooting reloads. All ammo had very hard extraction.

I appreciate your responding, Thanks.

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If after being very sure the chambers were absolutely clean and firing Rem Golden Saber in them, and still had very hard extraction, I would be on my way to my revolver smith, who has the gauges and reamers to find and correct egg shaped or tapered chambers, if the cylinder can be fixed.
Not a project for me.

I had the same problem with a m19. I only had one sticky charge hole. I bought a pair of cylinder hones 800/400 grit from Amazon. Solved it.

Same gun has lots of end shake. .008" worth. I'm pretty sure someone shot very heavy loads out of it and distorted the cylinder and stretched the frame.

I recently had a similar problem with a M-28-3, firing my regular .38spl lead 158gr swc loads as well as my .357 Mag re-loads. The chambers appeared to be clean, but my Lewis lead remover told me otherwise. It took a long time scrubbing , but I was able to get fired cases to drop in and out of the cylinder. I tested cases recently fired and about a 100 or so that were fired in my other .38 guns.
Not sure if our problems are the same, but if you haven't tried a Lewis lead remover it might be worth a try.

Oldshot said:

I recently had a similar problem with a M-28-3, firing my regular .38spl lead 158gr swc loads as well as my .357 Mag re-loads. The chambers appeared to be clean, but my Lewis lead remover told me otherwise. It took a long time scrubbing , but I was able to get fired cases to drop in and out of the cylinder. I tested cases recently fired and about a 100 or so that were fired in my other .38 guns.
Not sure if our problems are the same, but if you haven't tried a Lewis lead remover it might be worth a try.

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Thanks for responding. I will give it a try. Although this gun looks like it was not fired enough to get that much grime in the chambers. But, it will take only a few minutes to be sure.

STOP Right There!

duckloads said:

I had the same problem with a m19. I only had one sticky charge hole. I bought a pair of cylinder hones 800/400 grit from Amazon. Solved it.

Same gun has lots of end shake. .008" worth. I'm pretty sure someone shot very heavy loads out of it and distorted the cylinder and stretched the frame.

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If this is the case, you should contact a top quality pistolsmithing firm like "Cylinder and Slide" and ask if they would perform a complete inspection of the cylinder, barrel. frame and slide. IF only the cylinder is bad replacement does not cost an arm and leg. If the barrel/cylinder is bad or the cylinder/frame is bad, you are probably looking at too much expense to justify the re-hab of this handgun. ......A cylinder that is in fact stretched out of spec by overloads is an unsafe cylinder. Yes it could be reamed or honed to the extent that each chamber would accept factory load, but that does not return it to a metallurgic condition that is safe. .......

BTW: IMHO, a good hone job is harder to achieve than a good ream job. Hones are good to remove a glaze or to roughen a surface that has become too slick and/or slick a surface that has become too rough. They were never intended to be used to enlarge precision holes in steel.

Another BTW: Send the handgun to S&W and if they find that it is out of specification to the point that "in their opinion" it is unsafe to be put back into service; you won't get it back. ...........

Big Cholla said:

Another BTW: Send the handgun to S&W and if they find that it is out of specification to the point that "in their opinion" it is unsafe to be put back into service; you won't get it back. ...........

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Any idea how they justify that and/or compensate the owner? I'd imagine in some jurisdictions, firearms are registered and at minimum some explaining may need to be done as to where your firearm went. That doesn't count the potentially unhappy (former) owner either.

My first thought is that the chambers are bulged. It happened to me by firing overloads from the old Speer manual in my Model 19-4.

S&W will offer some sort of compensation, you just may not like it. .........

If a pistolsmithing firm found the entire handgun is unsafe and not worth re-habbing, at least you would have the option of either having them strip all the usable parts out and sending them back, or sending the intact gun back for your choice of disposal methods. ......

As a practicing pistolsmith for years and having worked on many 'blownup revolvers' it is my opinion that it is likely that the handgun in question of the OP's will be OK in the frame. I am less optimistic about the condition of the breech of the barrel, but it could very well be OK also. I will bet a $ to a donut that the cylinder is toast. ........... And if so it is a easy relatively inexpensive fix. ..........

Have you looked closely at the fired cases to see if they have a bulge in them? I bought a new 657 that had "loose" chambers, mid-case, & caused hard extraction & many of the symptoms you mentioned. http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-re...oose-chambers-bulging-cases-s-w-repaired.html

If you resize those cases are they noticeably different/harder than from other guns?

The chambers should have a slight taper to them for easy extraction (see SAAMI specs diagram). The straighter they are the more prone they are to hard extraction, especially with full loads. (I have one 41 Mag with this issue.)

Measuring the chamber mouths (charge holes) only tells you part of the story. Pin gages can help give you an idea of the dimensional changes, back to front, but if they vary in the middle (larger) you'll miss that. A telescoping gauge set can detect that better. Depending on what these checks find would dictate what needed to be done to fix it.

.

Have you thought about buying a finishing reamer and running it through the chambers? I've done this with success on. 22s, it's possible that your cylinders were reamed with worn tooling, which could result in them being undersized.

Lou

Lou_NC said:

Have you thought about buying a finishing reamer and running it through the chambers? I've done this with success on. 22s, it's possible that your cylinders were reamed with worn tooling, which could result in them being undersized.

Lou

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I have thought about it and looked on Brownells. There are several and I don't know enough about them to know which one to choose. They are about $85, which is cheaper than sending the gun somewhere, but again, I have no idea what I would be doing with one. I don't suppose I could hurt it any worse!

Warren Sear said:

My first thought is that the chambers are bulged. It happened to me by firing overloads from the old Speer manual in my Model 19-4.

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I would agree with this and if that's the case, I don't think reaming will help.

I sent my 60-14 to S&W and even though it was most likely my fault, they repaired it for free and I had it back in under two weeks.

Dave

I'd start by making SURE the chambers are clean. You can have a situation where you're just polishing carbon build-up in the chambers.

Soak the cylinder in your favorite powder/carbon solvent then chuck a short piece of cleaning rod in a variable speed drill motor and use a .375 rifle bore brush (my current 1st choice) or a .40 cal bore brush in the chambers. See what comes out of the chambers. It won't hurt anything and you'll probably be surprised how much crud comes out.

Check the chambers with a telescoping gauge and micrometer. This will let you see if the chambers are bulged or undersize or out of round or all of the above.

Finish reamers are pretty easy to use. You run it by hand, use plenty of cutting oil. Preferably the thick brown nasty cutting oil like Brownells' Do-Drill cutting oil.

I would definitely clean and measure first.

Let us know what you find.

Richard: OK. If you are determined to 'work' your way out of this situation, buy a 'finish' reamer that has the shoulder for cutting the pocket for the rim of the 357 mag. cartridge. Also, buy cutting oil (Mobil is the one I use), a handle to clamp the reamer in and a bottle of Dykem marking fluid. When you have everything, clamp the cylinder with the extractor star still in the cylinder in a well padded vise and paint the surface that the cartridge rim rests upon with Dykem. I use the red color as it is easier for me to see tooling marks. Place 5 fired rounds of brass in 5 chambers. Liberally lube the chamber and the reamer. ONLY turn the reamer clockwise and never counter clockwise even when backing it out. Run the reamer in with even handed twists doing your darnedest to keep the reamer pushed in while maintaining exact alignment with the chamber. When the flange cutter part of the reamer just touches the painted surface the cartridge would rest upon, stop. The reamer fills with chips quickly so you must back out frequently and thoroughly clean the chamber and the reamer. Always pull the reamer out using gentle twists clockwise only. Use lots of cutting lubricant. It gets messy so have some sort of rags below your vise to sort of contain the effluent. After all 6 chambers have been done in this manner use a Q-tip to paint the inside of each chamber with Dykem. Allow the Dykem to dry. Then gently run the reamer in again and give it about two turns without going any deeper. Look in the chamber just done and look for untouched Dykem on the wall of that chamber. If it is bulged the bulge will show as a spot of Dykem color not touched by the reamer. Any bulge will be either on the extreme outside of the chamber OR the extreme inside of the chamber. If you find any of the six chamber bulged, as I have said before the cylinder is unsafe to shoot and should be replaced never to be used in a handgun again. I think you will spend about $150 to $175 total doing this check. For less than that you can have the cylinder replaced. ...........

tomcatt51 said:

I'd start by making SURE the chambers are clean . . .

Check the chambers with a telescoping gauge and micrometer. This will let you see if the chambers are bulged or undersize or out of round or all of the above . . .

I would definitely clean and measure first.

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Richard,

If you haven't cured your problem before Tulsa, I'll bring down my .38/.357 Lewis Lead Remover as well as telescoping & ball gauges and a dial caliper.

If you need to go the chamber reamer route, you may find what you need in Tulsa.

Russ

linde said:

Richard,

If you haven't cured your problem before Tulsa, I'll bring down my .38/.357 Lewis Lead Remover as well as telescoping & ball gauges and a dial caliper.

If you need to go the chamber reamer route, you may find what you need in Tulsa.

Russ

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Russ: I have a Lewis lead remover. The gauges would be great. It will be interesting to see what I have. I will not be doing anything with it before Tulsa, other than soaking and cleaaning, so will bring it along. Thank you very much.

Update to this old thread

I wanted to update everyone that contributed, and I'm sure most have forgotten their contribution. I cant seem to access the title to indicate an update.

Anyway, I took it to one gunsmith who said that polishing the chambers would be the way to go, rather than reaming, but it would be several months before he could do it. He said the cylinder was fine.

I contacted Cylinder and Slide who just wanted the cylinder and $200+ to ream it. I thought that the cylinder should be checked first before reaming, but what do I know.

Another gunsmith shot several rounds out of it and recommended that I just oil the chambers and shoot as is.

After several months sitting in limbo, I took it to another gunsmith that had done some other work for me as well as a friend of mine. He checked the gun and said that polishing was the way to go but it would be a lot of hand work and fairly expensive. He preferred not to do it. So, I left it with him! He said it would be at least a month to do. as he would only be able to work on a for a short time then lay it aside for awhile.

He called about 6 weeks later and said he was finished. When I picked it up, he said that he had hand polished it one chamber at a time doing just the minimal amount. He charged me $160 for the work. It was obvious that he had been careful as there were no marks on the gun at all and he was appreciative of the quality of the gun. He had fired it with nickel cases and left them in. I extracted them easily.

Went straight to the range and fired some factory and some of my loads with 13.5 grains of 2400 and 158 coated bullet. All empties fairly well dropped out of the chambers. And, I could actually reinsert an empty into all the chambers with very minimal friction, something that it would only do with one chamber before the polishing effort.

I am very please with the results. He also said that the chambers were out of round from the factory.

I shot it again Thursday and it still worked fine.

Thanks