HomeSmith Trainwreck #3 "Short & Sweet"

Shotguncoach · #1 12-29-2023, 01:55 AM

Trainwreck #1 "Mud Hen" is still relaxing in her Ed's Red bath, and Trainwreck #5 "Bullshooter" is ready for it's first range trip, so tonight after SWMBO went to bed I started on Trainwreck #3 "Short & Sweet".

Short & Sweet is a 10-8 .38 special with a 3" heavy barrel. It started out life blued, but now it's.....well....it's just plain ugly.

This one has freckles, scabies, pits, and a delightfully eclectic finish that is part blue and part bare metal with just a touch of rust, failed dreams, and lost hopes.

Shotguncoach · #2 12-29-2023, 02:01 AM

It's missing the cylinder latch button, the inside looks to be almost as munged up as Mud Hen, the ejector rod isn't quite straight, and the cylinder has a really cool 3D effect happening. The good news is that the frame under the grips looks much better than I thought it would. There may be some life left in this one...

Shotguncoach · #3 12-29-2023, 02:20 AM

After the grips were off and the glamour shots taken, I sprayed some RemOil up inside the frame and started on getting the sideplate off.

I still need help from my emotional support llama when I think about that stuck sideplate screw on Mud Hen, so I was very pleasantly surprised when all three sideplate screws came out without any fuss at all. The screws went into my favorite "these have to go back in a certain order" parts holding device: an old .45 AARP ammo tray.

With the screws safely stored in the correct left to right order, I started whacking the grip frame with an old hammer handle to raise the sideplate. I whacked. I whacked some more. I pondered how my life had led to me banging on things with an old piece of wood in the garage at 9pm on a Thursday night. More whacking. Turn on some music. Whack some more in time with the beat. Maybe the hammer handle is defective. Found another one and whacked more. This handle had a slightly deeper tone that made for more pleasant whacking. Whack whack whack. SWMBO woke up and wanted to know what the h*ll I was doing. I asked for some privacy during my whacking and she went away mumbling about how the dog was smarter than I was.

Finally after what seemed like 3 days of whacking the sideplate started to lift. After that life was easy and it only took 173 more whacks to get it loose.

The inside turned out to be better than I had hoped for. Nasty, but just dirty nasty...not full of pits and orange shag carpet.

Shotguncoach · #4 12-29-2023, 03:03 AM

Once the sideplate was off it was a simple matter of removing every single piece. I managed to get this one apart without any Zings! or pieces flying about the garage. I was worried about the cylinder stop and it's itty bitty spring, but that same goofy reground screwdriver and page 17 of Mr. Kuhnhausen's book popped it right out.

30 minutes of effort, a toothbrush, a carding brush, 87 Q-tips, 14 rolls of shop towels, and an entire house reeking of Hoppe's #9 because the inside garage door was open resulted in something that didn't really look half bad inside.

There was only one small oops putting it all back together.....check the pictures and tell me if you've ever done this.

teletech · #5 12-29-2023, 03:08 AM

Gun abuse is always harder to see when it's been done to something nice like a 3" Smith. Glad it found you.
Polish and re-blue, sandblast and parkerize,...?
Looks like it's a good candidate for engraving practice.

Shotguncoach · #6 12-29-2023, 03:22 AM

Once the old girl was greased up, back together, and the bench had been scanned for extra pieces, it was time to add the mandatory dog hair (it helps with waterproofing), put the sideplate back on, and install the cylinder release button and a new set of shoes from the parts kit.

The trigger breaks at 52 ounces in single action mode and the timing is perfect on all 6 chambers. This one will go to the range on Sunday with Bullshooter.

*note to self: get a trigger pull gauge that doesn't max out at 5 pounds

As long as you don't actually, you know, look at it this one seems pretty nice. It's tempting to just leave it as-is and let it live out the rest of it's life in the center console of my truck, but I have other plans for this one.

Shotguncoach · #7 12-29-2023, 03:28 AM

"But Coach, you didn't actually fix anything! All you did was clean....why?"

Have no fear, there will be much more to this story. This first exercise was to really just to establish a baseline and make sure there weren't any hidden problems with the frame. I don't see much point (other than practice) in performing work to set up parts that will not be in the final, finished work.

We all remember Jenny's number, but who remembers the name of the band that performed the song?

The parts kit gives a hint of where I plan for this one to eventually go.

Range report on Sunday!

alwslate · #8 12-29-2023, 07:59 AM

Doesn't look like it needed any fixing beyond a good cleaning and lubing. Ditch the rubber grips and put the magnas back on

Shotguncoach · #9 12-29-2023, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alwslate

Doesn't look like it needed any fixing beyond a good cleaning and lubing. Ditch the rubber grips and put the magnas back on

I like the way magnas look, but I've never been able to shoot consistently with them on a K-frame....especially a round butt version. Something about the shape of my hands makes K-frame magnas twist on every shot. That's after the trigger guard bangs into my middle finger of course.

J and N-frame magnas work fine, and service stocks with a T-grip on K-frames work well too. It's just a combination of tolerances that makes the K-frame magnas not work for me. I keep them all in a tote just in case I ever decide to try that thing where someone gives me money and they take away one of my babies. I've never done that but I've heard about it....

2152hq · #10 12-29-2023, 11:18 AM

Perfect candidate for for complete polishing.
Then a rust blue finish.
Polish to 320 or even 400. You can keep that level of gloss if you do the rust bluing with that in mind and don't just let the rusting cycles build heavily.

The current condition of the metal around the bbl markings and the S&W medallion looks good in that it can be carefully polished and the lettering not need any recut.
The cylinder surface rust damage is easy to polish off and keep the metal crisp.
The flutes of what I can see look to be in pretty good condition. Those can be difficult to polish for some and to keep the edges sharp & not draw out the round edge at the rear.

All part of learning the trade.

Nice 3" K frame revolver

handejector · #11 12-29-2023, 12:07 PM

What tipped you off, the hard trigger pull?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shotguncoach

There was only one small oops putting it all back together.....check the pictures and tell me if you've ever done this.

HomeSmith Trainwreck #3 "Short & Sweet"-img_9064-jpg

handejector · #12 12-29-2023, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shotguncoach

Trainwreck #1 "Mud Hen" is still relaxing in her Ed's Red bath,

Which one is Mud Hen? I looked thru your threads but did not see that term.

Shotguncoach · #13 12-29-2023, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by handejector

What tipped you off, the hard trigger pull?

Actually, yes. I went to manipulate the trigger in order to install the hammer and it wouldn’t move.

Shotguncoach · #14 12-29-2023, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by handejector

Which one is Mud Hen? I looked thru your threads but did not see that term.

Mud Hen is the original trainwreck and didn’t get a name until towards the end of the first “Trainwreck guns for learning” thread. It’s a nasty looking 6” 5 screw K frame that needs a lawnmower to clear out the inside of the frame…….after I finally get that #%!*£ sideplate screw out.

bgrafsr · #15 12-29-2023, 02:13 PM

Where did you get your parts, "Every gun part"?

dsf · #16 12-29-2023, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shotguncoach

"But Coach, you didn't actually fix anything! All you did was clean....why?"

Have no fear, there will be much more to this story. This first exercise was to really just to establish a baseline and make sure there weren't any hidden problems with the frame. I don't see much point (other than practice) in performing work to set up parts that will not be in the final, finished work.

We all remember Jenny's number, but who remembers the name of the band that performed the song?

The parts kit gives a hint of where I plan for this one to eventually go.

Range report on Sunday!

Are you going to make it Tutone?

Nope, didn't have to look it up.

KAC · #17 12-29-2023, 05:38 PM

Rust and bluing loss like that indicates to me that there was considerable blood on that revolver. You can speculate where that blood came from, but I have my suspicions.

KAC

Pig Hunter · #18 12-29-2023, 05:40 PM

I agree with 2152hq, perfect candidate for rust blue. You can even take the barrel off to make it a nicer job. Rust blue is a procedure many custom gunmakers use as the finish is tougher than hot blue and really gives a custom look. Another plus is minimal equipment is needed and no tubs of nasty chemicals.

Shotguncoach · #19 12-29-2023, 05:44 PM

You guys are spot on. I absolutely want to rust blue the frame and create a faux pinto that is blue and stainless.

I even bought my own pots so that my wife won’t kill me when I start boiling guns on the stove….

mikerjf · #20 12-29-2023, 07:10 PM

"Jenny Jenny, you're the girl for me"...

(Just don't change that number when polishing!)

2152hq · #21 12-30-2023, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shotguncoach

You guys are spot on. I absolutely want to rust blue the frame and create a faux pinto that is blue and stainless.

I even bought my own pots so that my wife won’t kill me when I start boiling guns on the stove….

Plain Bread Pans work great for stove top rust blue projects like handguns and small parts.
You often times can't cram every part into the water at the same time, but that's OK.
Do a few, let them boil. While they are, coat the others (Express Rust).
When the first batch comes out of the water. Set them aside and put bunch #2 in the water.
Then take #1 batch and card them.
By tghe time carding & recoating with soln is done again on #1,,the ones in the water are ready to come out for the same procedure and these go back in.

Here's a Pre-27 that got an Express Rust Blue on the kitchen stove after engraving. With care it doesn't have to be the dull matted finish often talked about.

Shotguncoach · #22 12-30-2023, 04:55 PM

Thank you all for the suggestions and encouragement about home bluing. I'm going to get the action the way I want it first and tackle the finish last....probably late spring/early summer.

Shotguncoach · #23 12-31-2023, 11:28 PM

Short & Sweet made a range trip today along with a couple of friends.

This is my first 3" heavy barrel K frame and I have to say that I'm hooked. It was late afternoon and the gray-ish mottled front sight was pretty hard to see so I kept the distance to 7 yards and and shot 2 handed from a Weaver stance. A DAO conversion is part of the plan for this one, so that's the way I shot it all day.

The Uncle Mike's grips were a massive improvement (for me) over the original magna's. I know they aren't as pretty, but I can shoot much better with them and pretty is as pretty does.

Next up for Short & Sweet is some trigger work. Literally. She has a smooth trigger face but there is a sharp ridge on each side that needs to go away.

"Bubba! Hand me the angle grinder! We're doing trigger work!"

Edit - I don't know why the target picture is sideways...it's oriented correctly when I view it locally

Shotguncoach · #24 01-01-2024, 08:57 PM

Short & Sweet was 100% reliable and shot very well yesterday, so let's change things!

With my emotional support llama standing by, I jumped in and moved the insides to the outside again. (This is becoming much easier and faster with practice)

I was immediately distracted by the hammer talking to me. Just a touch of a rub showing....

Looking inside revealed three possibilities: the cheese grater machining marks on the bolt, a somewhat jagged edge at the top of the frame, and some lovely machining marks inside the frame. I decided that it would be faster just to clean up all three locations than it would be to get out the marking dye and assemble/test/disassemble. Of course it was not.

There might be a need for a hammer shim or two here. I made a mental note to check side to side play in the hammer when I was done....which I promptly forgot until I sat down to write this.

Shotguncoach · #25 01-01-2024, 09:19 PM

Remembering my previous experience with Bullshooter, I installed the frame in my Zing! prevention device (clear plastic bag)...which of course I didn't need. The plunger and spring went into the small parts retention device (laundry soap cap).

The bolt was pretty rough on every side. Even though it's not visible and the backside doesn't really matter, I decided to clean up all 4 sides with a file and stone for practice.

Shotguncoach · #26 01-01-2024, 09:37 PM

My friend Nelson has told me several times that "You can't push a file sitting down." Now I understand...

I spent about 20 minutes on the bolt, first watching the file cut and then watching the oil smear from the medium india stone. I eventually got the hang of positioning the tool on the work by feel, then locking my wrist and producing all the motion with my shoulder and elbow.

A commercial 'smith would have done this with a Cratex point on a Foredom tool in about 30 seconds because time is money. Learning how to use the tools was more important than how long it took.

It was also a good time to remind myself to keep cutting tools waaaaay over there. Nothing happened, but I almost set the file down on the sideplate at one point.

Yes, I also moved the sideplate to a safer location.

The Zing! prevention device was used again to reinstall the bolt and this time it really did just pop back in.

Shotguncoach · #27 01-01-2024, 10:57 PM

Knowing that I still needed to clean up the top of the frame, I decided to start at the bottom because.....well just because.

The frame area behind the rebound slide on Bullshooter has been smoothed out, pretty obviously using a rotary tool. I have one but I really wanted to do this job by hand. None of my files are shaped properly to get into this area so I was a bit stumped until I remembered that a stone is a stone on every side. The end of a small square ceramic stone (no I'm not going to start that again) fit perfectly for what I wanted to do.

The hammer stud boss was easy to avoid. To stay off of the trigger stud boss I used a clipped-off Qtip handle as a safety guide. Oil, scrub scrub, clean. Oil, scrub scrub, clean. Keeping the stone square and flat on the work was again an exercise in locking the wrist and moving only from the shoulder and elbow. Oil, scrub scrub, clean.

Since this was functional and not for pretty, I figured that the deep tool marks don't matter as long as the top is smooth. It actually worked pretty well and smoothed out the bottom of the frame at the same time. There is a small area right in the corner that the stone didn't reach - not sure that small amount will make a noticeable difference.

I didn't spend nearly as much time on the top of the frame because the hammer drag was barely there. A hand window file was used to gently break the sharp edge at the very top, and the end of the stone was used on the tool marks to take the tops off. It isn't nearly as shiny as the bottom portion but it should take care of the hammer drag.

Shotguncoach · #28 01-01-2024, 11:13 PM

The next part that talked to me was the rebound slide. The bottom had an obvious drag mark starting on one side. Instead of the stone and file, I used sandpaper and a flat piece of acrylic to polish the sides of rebound slide. 600 grit to start, then 1000, then 2000 for a nice polish. It probably wasn't necessary to make it a mirror but it was easy to do.

The hammer seat received exactly 3 swipes on the 2000 grit paper just to remove some oxidation that a toothbrush wouldn't get off.

A round file was used to deburr the inside of the spring channel in the rebound slide. This was done entirely by feel with a very light touch. There were 3 obvious burrs that came out.

Shotguncoach · #29 01-01-2024, 11:50 PM

I understand why Nelson says that files need to be pushed while standing up, but when it comes to scrubbing a trigger with sandpaper I will sit down, thank you very much.

I thought for a while about how to approach smoothing and rounding the sharp edge of the trigger face. A file seemed too aggressive. As I was breaking the sharp edge with my small round ceramic stone it occurred to me that what I should do is use sandpaper incorrectly to achieve the result I wanted.

If I pause for a moment I can still hear my Dad yelling at me for sanding a painted surface without a sanding block using just my fingers. "Always use a block. If you don't use a block the sandpaper will follow your fingers and create ripples and rounded edges." There were many more descriptive terms mixed in that the forum software won't let me repeat here, but you get the idea. At least he didn't use "The Belt Of Knowledge."

The result I wanted was to have a smooth, rounded trigger that follows the form of my finger.........exactly what I got yelled at for doing 40+ years ago. Sanding the trigger without a block using just my finger was both traumatizing and satisfying.

And it took forever.

Now that I've done it, I can say "never again". If there was ever a reason for the invention of the rotary tool this is it. I spent just short of 2 hours sanding, starting with 180 grit, then 600 grit, then 1000 grit, then 2000 grit. And yes, I did sit down.

Some of the pits in the trigger were too deep to come out in the short time I worked in it (!!), but the final result feels great and looks much better than it did.

I'll take the serrations off of Bullshooter's trigger with the Dremel.

While I was working I used my thumb to keep the paper off of the bearing surfaces of the trigger. I told my wife that this proves that I am not a tool, I am actually a tool guide. She wasn't impressed.

Shotguncoach · #30 01-02-2024, 12:25 AM

Another thing that I've gotten semi-good at is installing the hand using a dental pick to compress the hand spring. Start the large stud of the hand into the trigger, then hold the trigger between your thumb and forefinger. Using a downward facing dental hook, push the hand spring along the side of the trigger until it clears the small stud and press the hand into place with your middle finger. It took longer to set up the picture (not enough hands) than it does to install the hand.

After everything was lubed up......hang on a second. Let's pause there. I live in Arizona. Central Arizona. Our winters are your summers, and our summers are something out of the book of Revelation. I can remember the Phoenix airport shutting down because there was no flight data to tell the pilots how the planes would behave at 126 degrees in the shade. Using oil on a gun then putting that gun into a holster and walking outside simply results in oil dripping out of your holster. (and putting spots on the leather seats in your truck at the same time). Oil on a handgun doesn't last more than 3 days for me, so I use grease. I essentially treat everything like an M1 Garand. If I'm going someplace cold it will be planned and I change the lubricant to fit the environment.

Anyway, after everything was lubed up and the trigger/hand installed it was time for the hammer. Bullshooter came with a bobbed DAO hammer but continued life with a standard hammer. The DAO hammer was calling to me and in it went.

Another sidebar: I don't know how much work was done to that hammer before I got it, but purely from a contact-point perspective it doesn't seem that the contact surfaces on the hammer and double action sear would contribute very much to the overall double action trigger pull experience. It seems to me that the total resistance from everything else that flips, flops, turns, slides, and squishes makes up the majority of the double action pull and the hammer/sear unit only contributes a little bit. I would appreciate any additional education that our more experienced members would care to share on that point.

Once the hammer was in I grabbed my shiny rebound slide and the Wilson spring kit. I had installed the 14# rebound spring during the initial deep clean and I wanted to see what the 12# spring felt like. Blip, bloop, sideplate on, strain screw tight, and.........mushy, slow trigger return only about half the time.

Ick.

Ok...insides come outside, 12# spring comes out, 13# spring goes in. Much better. Snappy return every time and oh my that double action pull is nice. I have no idea what I started with because I didn't wait for my "measures more than 5 pounds" trigger pull scale to arrive before starting this part of the adventure. (Patience has always been a strong point for me) The double action pull now is noticeably better than it was...even better than Bullshooter and very close to the beauty that Nelson produces.

I'm actually pretty proud of this one. And I still have not touched any sear surfaces or done anything to the rotating assembly other than clean and lube.

Here's a before and after of the trigger and some family pictures of Short & Sweet with her big brother. I want to spend some time on the range with her in this configuration before the next phase of the project starts. Range report next Sunday and then it's under the knife again for some cosmetic work.

steelslaver · #31 01-02-2024, 02:40 AM

Back off on the grease. In fact don't use any. A small drop of light machine oil on the hammer and trigger stud, and rebound slide, then a drop on side plate bosses before putting it on is plenty.

Shotguncoach · #32 01-02-2024, 09:29 AM

Thank you Sir - and happy new year!

I would honestly love to have a conversation about that if you have time.

Here in my temperature zone I've had good luck with grease instead of oil. The upside is that it stays in place. The downside is that it attracts dust and dirt which requires more frequent cleaning. It also packs into the nooks and crannies which can require aerosol cleaning assistance.

I know that I'm putting in too much here at the beginning by treating the inside of the guns as if I'm packing a wheel bearing. Since these guns are taken apart several times each week, part of what I'm doing is to use it like a slippery version of marking blue and studying where it's disturbed, where it's wiped away, and where it builds up.

Philosophically I know that I should be ok to continue what has worked for me for the last 40 years which is to put a few drops of oil into all the "entrance points" of the revolver every time I shoot/clean.

I grabbed the grease based on my experience with oil running off the slide rails of my 1911's and from seeing literally hundreds of break open shotguns with galling on the bearing surfaces from only using oil. Those are different applications with different tolerances and a different range of movement though.

I guess what I'm saying that this is an experiment to see if it's better than the way I've been doing it. If there is a long-term downside that I haven't foreseen I'd appreciate hearing about it.

steelslaver · #33 01-02-2024, 10:06 AM

I do like what your doing with those Train wreck guns. I have a soft spot of wayward Smiths myself

My comment was due to the facts that grease is stiffer and more dust and debris sticks to it, then the fact that it will solidify faster. As the only surfaces that take much load are hardened and smooth they do not gall. Try this, clean one of them with brake cleaner, assemble with no lube and measure the DA pull, then put a drop of oil on each stud, the trigger rebound slide and on the yoke barrel and check the pull again, then do the grease thing and check. You should find that the light oil is the sweet spot. I use light synthetic motor oil. It protects the wear surfaces of motors turning thousands of RPMs for hours. If I let a car set for a year or more and start it up, in the say 10 seconds before it gets oil pressure it will make at least 60 complete revolutions with no wear just because of the oil that clung to the surfaces. Your revolver has nowhere near those kinds pressures or surface to surface movements exerted on it

I get checking for rubbing, but a tube of Prussian blue will last a long time using it on revolvers and give more detail.

I also believe the galling you see on break open shot guns is more due to debris and neglect than from the use of oil as opposed to grease. I have 3 doubles, I have never used grease or oil on any of them and non of them show galling. One is a old enough it has Damascus barrels.

I got the grease on the 1911 slides. I also run grease in my U joints, wheel bearings and tie rods, but then they are all sealed units, that go for well over 100,000 miles. My truck had 250,000 miles on the original U joints and as far as I know had never been greased. When I went through it I only replaced on U joint on an axle stub and all 4 ball joints, but only 3 of those were really worn very badly.

Pig Hunter · #34 01-02-2024, 11:16 PM

SGcoach, check out different file cuts. A half round smooth cut file would have made life easier for you. Also getting some small cheap files that you can heat up and reshape to suit the job at hand are good skills to have. Buy some cheap screwdrivers at a pawnshop or the swap meet. They can be reshaped and hardened to make other tools you may only use once, but will make life easier. Best of luck with your journey!

Protocall_Design · #35 01-03-2024, 10:49 AM

For the kind of work you're doing, you would benefit greatly by having a couple of ScotchBrite wheels. They come in many sizes. They are like polishing wheels, only you never use a rouge stick on them because they have the abrasive all through the wheel. You want one that looks like this. You can get them in 6, 8, and 10" diameters depending on what size your grinding/polishing motor uses. You want the 1/2" face width. The best setup is to get 2 of them, keep one with a square face and make one with a rounded face. You want the Grade 8S Fin as in the picture. The S denotes Silicon Carbide abrasive. Fin is Fine Grit. Your 2 hours of working on the trigger will become about 5 minutes. You can get a mirror polish on the other small surfaces in seconds. Get only the 3M brand. None of the others work as well. I've tried them all.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/31484404031...epid=767926216

Shotguncoach · #36 01-07-2024, 01:48 AM

Somewhere the sun is shining,
Somewhere the children shout,
But there is no joy in Mudville,
For Short & Sweet can't push the bullets out

Short & Sweet made a range trip today in it's new configuration along with two other projects that you haven't met yet: A Little Harry and The Postwar Dream. These other two were on their initial evaluation range trip. More to come on both of them.

The shaping, smoothing, and polishing on the Short & Sweet's trigger was the big win of the day. Vast improvement.

The double action trigger pull was wonderful compared to the other two....Little Harry has perhaps the worst trigger I have ever felt in a Smith.

The problem today was light primer strikes. Federal primers would give a light strike 1 or 2 times per cylinder, Winchester primers were over 50% failure on the first hit. Every light strike had a small dimple in the primer and would fire on the second strike.

Short & Sweet has been running a Wilson Combat mainspring since it's first range trip and everything worked 100% with the standard .265 spurred hammer in both single and double action. The bobbed DAO hammer was the "big change" on this trip.

This DAO hammer is the one that was originally in Bullshooter, but Bullshooter was never tested in that configuration. I replaced the bobbed hammer with a semi-target hammer when Bullshooter was assembled and the bobbed hammer eventually made its' way into Short & Sweet.

The ammo I was using is from the same reload lots that I've been using all along, so I don't think that's the problem.

I see 3 possibilities:

- The firing pin/hammer nose in the DAO hammer may be damaged or otherwise too short.

- The reduced mass of the DAO hammer combined with the Wilson Combat mainspring may not be generating enough force to reliably ignite the primer. That whole Mass X Velocity thing...

- It was colder than my mother-in-law's heart at the range today and my habit of greasing the inside of the gun like a wheel bearing may have caught up with me. (Hi Steelslaver!)

Here's my plan:

Set up the measuring tools and quantify the amount of firing pin protrusion from the breech face on the DAO hammer, the "known good" standard hammer, and on several other guns that I know do not have a light strike problem.

After my "measures more than 5 pounds" trigger scale arrives, perform Steelslavers lubricant test and post the results.

Using the winning lubrication method, continue the test by measuring the hammer tension with the stock mainspring, the Wilson Combat mainspring, and a Wolff mainspring.

Make a range trip with 2 hammers, 3 springs, a toolbox, the patented anti-Zing! device, and a pile of ammo. This wouldn't be the first time that I've done "hot testing" by swapping parts at the range and I'm sure it won't be the last. (And yes, I will take a tarp, a magnet picker-upper tool, and duplicates of the small parts. I figure if I take a couple of rebound springs and a few sideplate screws that guarantees that I won't need them.)

Stay tuned, we're about to get nerdy!

I know I could look up the minimum hammer tensions needed for various weights of hammers (or I could just call Nelson - he has them memorized), but for me it "sticks better" if I do the work to figure it out.

I also find this kind of stuff very relaxing. (At least it's relaxing when I'm not working on Eleanor!) My regular job is quite mentally taxing and being able to completely focus on something else for a short time helps me reset.

All that rust bluing stuff that is sitting in the corner will just have to wait until we get the mechanicals straightened out.

Shotguncoach · #37 01-07-2024, 03:14 PM

I'm thinking that perhaps I should change the name of these threads to "A comprehensive list of every mistake you can make".

I got all set up to measure the firing pin protrusion (which is .047"), and when I took the grips off to mount the frame into the vise......there was the strain screw, backed most of the way out, laughing at me.

Oh well. At least now I know why it suddenly started having light strikes.

The trigger pull is not nearly as nice as it was with the strain screw backed out, but it's still much nicer than it was.

I'll still do the lubricant/trigger pull test, but I think the next range session will include a "how far can the strain screw be backed out before misfires occur" test. If I combine that with measurements of the hammer tension at 1/4 turn intervals I should get an idea of the tension required to prevent misfires and know how much (if any) I can shorten the strain screw to improve the trigger pull.

This is how I learn.....by doing things multiple times and screwing them up. At least this one didn't cost me money.

Time to go smooth out Bullshooters serrated trigger.

Protocall_Design · #38 01-07-2024, 05:00 PM

Here are a couple of tips that will hopefully help you and others along.

1 - Cold grease will kill a tuned revo action.

2 - The firing pin should stick out about .050, the thickness of a dime. If you can't measure it exactly, have the hammer in fired position and slide a dime up next to the protruding firing pin for a visual reference. On a newer pin in frame gun, if too short, you can buy a longer pin and put that in.
On an older pin on hammer gun, you can take the pin (hammer nose) off, grind some off the hammer face with belt or disc sander, keeping all original angles and put the pin back on. The firing pin will stick out further by the amount ground off the hammer face. Make sure that the firing pin is now not contacting the hammer nose bushing by checking for a bit of play in the fired position. If there's no wiggle, you will need to file some relief on the curved parts of the hammer nose for clearance.

3 - Use blue #242 or purple #222 Loctite on the strain screw. If you don't, it will walk out a little at a time as the spring flexes, as you have seen.

4 - For a snappier trigger return, polish and radius the square corner of the hammer seat on the top of the rebound slide. Also, polish and radius the mating rebound seat on the bottom of the hammer. This will often allow you to use a lighter rebound spring, thus giving a lighter DA trigger pull.

5 - The Wilson spring will give you the best trigger pull for a given spring weight on a factory hammer due to the length and shape of the spring. Use that one if it will work.

6 - A bobbed hammer will give a lighter reliable trigger pull than a spur hammer. This is because of the formula referenced above. The bobbed hammer (less weight) will have more velocity at a given mainspring setting and the velocity is squared, making it the more important part of the equation in this case.

7 - The top corners of the trigger is the part that eats your trigger finger when doing a lot of DA shooting. Make a big radius on those top corners right under the frame, and all along both sides. Then you can shoot comfortably all day, long match, long practice session, etc.

Shotguncoach · #39 01-07-2024, 07:26 PM

Thank you for the advice on the trigger return. Short & Sweet has a bit of a hitch in her get-along on the trigger return that is on the list of things to address.

I also appreciate the alibi on the strain screw, but that one is 100% my fault. I put just enough tension on it to assemble the interior pieces and forgot to tighten it after I put the sideplate on.

Shotguncoach · #40 01-14-2024, 03:22 PM

The trigger pull lubrication test results are in!

Short & Sweet was locked into a bench vise by the barrel. She's a curvy girl so I was able to clamp the padded vise jaws around the barrel without interfering with the rotation of the ejector rod. Ambient temperature in the garage was 68 degrees. All tests were performed with a 14lb Wilson rebound spring and a Wilson mainspring.

I did 6 trigger pull measurements with each lubrication method. The pull weights were not identical on each chamber but were all within 1/2 pound +/- of each other so I went with the middle measurements. No single action measurements were taken due to the DAO hammer.

The first test with with grease since she was already lubed that way. Then the insides were moved to the outside and everything was degreased with non-chlorinated brake cleaner. Reassemble and repeat test. Move the insides to the outside and add 2 drops of light oil to each stud + 2 drops on the rebound slide area. Reassemble and repeat test.....

Grease: 11 pounds 4 ounces
Dry: 11 pounds 8 ounces
Oil: 11 pounds 2 ounces

Steelslaver wins.

Next up was the hammer tension measurements with various degrees of backing out on the strain screw. It appears that the tip of my strain screw is not exactly square. Hammer tension is presented first, followed by the double action trigger pull.

Fully seated: 56 ounces (11lb 2oz)
1/4 turn out: 54 ounces (11lb 8oz)
1/2 turn out: 50 ounces (10lb 2oz)
1 turn out: 40 ounces (10lb 8oz)
1 1/2 turns out: 30 ounces (9lb 4oz)

The strain screw has been fully seated again and those godawful magna grips reinstalled for easy access to the screw. Today's range session will include a "loosen until misfire" test using Winchester small pistol primers. My prediction is that 1/2 turn will work but after that it will get iffy. If that's true, I'll be digging another strain screw out of the pile and adjusting its' installed length to match the original screw at the 1/2 turn out position, leaving the original screw intact.

I measured Bullshooters trigger just for fun while I had everything set up. 48 ounces of hammer tension, 8.5 pound double action pull, 2.5 pound single action pull. This was with a Wilson mainspring and a 12 pound Wilson rebound spring. I sense more testing in the near future....

Protocall_Design · #41 01-14-2024, 05:16 PM

Now that you can measure the results of your work, you'll be able to tell what things make a difference, and by how much. After a while, you will find that some things don't matter much, and you can get a great action with a lot less work. This part of the journey is important, even though tedious at times. Keep your records for future reference. They will prove to be a valuable time saving resource. Start a 3 ring binder or spiral notebook rather than loose scraps or post-it notes.

Shotguncoach · #42 01-14-2024, 05:52 PM

Right there with ya’ ……. I’ve got reloading notebooks, coaching notebooks, shooting notebooks, notebooks detailing quirks and preferences of individual guns, and a big new gunsmithing notebook. The bench notes that you see in some of the pictures get transcribed into the appropriate notebook as part of the cleanup process when each session is finished.

drgbike · #43 01-14-2024, 07:25 PM

I have to say this is the type of gunsmithing I learned on. Hands on, but reading every book and article I got my hands on. All kudos to you, I really enjoy your writing, keep up the good work!!!!!!

Shotguncoach · #44 01-15-2024, 01:33 AM

Interesting stuff at the range today with Short & Sweet...

We started with a dozen shots at steel targets just to make sure that fully tightening the strain screw had fixed the light strike problem. It did. I put some incredibly precise reference marks on the frame with a sharpie and started turning money into noise.

Shooting was done at 5 yards because that's where the tailgate of my truck ended up when I set up the target stands. All testing was done with mixed brass .38 special reloads using Winchester small pistol primers, 3.5 grains of Bullseye, and 158 grain lead semi-wadcutters from Missouri Bullet Company.

In the notes below, the strain screw position is on the left, followed by the number of shots, reliability notes, and hammer tension when light strikes started to happen.

Fully seated - 6 shots - 100%

1/2 turn out - 6 shots - 100%

Full turn out - 6 shots - 100%

1 1/2 turns out - 6 shots - 2 failures to fire, one fired on the second strike, the other on the 3rd strike - hammer tension 30 oz

1 1/4 turns out - 6 shots - 2 failures to fire, both fired on the second strike - hammer tension 34 oz

Full turn out - 12 shots - last shot failure to fire, fired on the second strike - hammer tension 38 oz

3/4 turn out - 18 shots - 100% - hammer tension 44 oz

Have I mentioned how much I dislike magna stocks?

At 32 tpi and .031" of movement per revolution, I should be able to take .023" off of the strain screw and still be 100% reliable. I mentioned using a second strain screw for this earlier, but after drinking on it for a while I realized that if I change the screw I have to redo the entire test. This screw can be shortened by .023" but that doesn't mean that the other screw can automatically be shortened by the same amount.

So the plan has changed. The measurements are a nice reference but what really matters is the hammer tension. I know that with this mainspring each turn of the strain screw (or .031" of length) takes approximately 16 ounces off of the hammer tension, and I know that I don't want to go below 44 ounces. The hammer tension with the replacement strain screw will be measured at full length, then math happens to get me about 3/4 of the way to where I want to be. The final fitting will be one stroke of the file, measure the tension, take another stroke, measure the tension, and so on until I hit the 44 ounce mark.

Then we shoot. A lot.

The majority of my .38 ammo is loaded with Federal primers. Setting up for the harder Winchester primers should allow for some margin of error. If I'm ever forced to use CCI primers I'll have the original strain screw in an envelope in the back of the safe.

More to come later in the week.....

Protocall_Design · #45 01-15-2024, 09:57 AM

Great shooting!

The way I deal with the mainspring tuning is to use a #8-32 setscrew (3/8" long for round butt, 1/2" long for square butt) and some #222 purple Loctite. You can adjust the setscrew any time you want, and it will stay where you put it. Clean the hole and screw with solvent, blow off or let solvent completely evaporate, put plenty of Loctite on both parts and screw them together. Mop up any excess with a Q tip. I have been doing this for many years with never a problem. Dial the hammer tension up to 44 ounces and you're good to go. That is the point of recording that measurement. It saves a lot of ammo.

Some people prefer the strain screw with a head. In that case, file it till you get 44 oz. hammer pull. I file them while spinning in the drill chuck on the drill press. It's quick and easy, and you can put a slight radius on at the same time. If you go a little too far, you can make the screw longer again by turning it upside down and file the bottom of the head as it spins. This allows the screw to reach in further. The art of revolver smithing is in adjusting that which is non adjustable.

Also, I make a small access hole in the grips to be able to tweak it any time needed without taking anything apart. It's easy to do with half grips - you just mark and cut one half at a time. You never feel the hole while shooting.

Pig Hunter · #46 01-15-2024, 07:15 PM

Shooting Magna style grips is a lot more fun with a grip adapter, BK, old Pachmyar, Tyler etc .

Shotguncoach · #47 01-20-2024, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Protocall_Design

The art of revolver smithing is in adjusting that which is non adjustable.

What a great quote....

So today I got screwed. Wait...there's probably a better way to say that. Today Short & Sweet got a new strain screw.

I also learned about the difference between round butt and square butt strain screws. My pile o' stuff contained exactly one round butt strain screw and it had already been trimmed way too short. I tried it and got a 30 ounce hammer tension. No go there.

The square butt screws were quite a bit longer than what I needed so out came the files.

I'd like to say Thank You to Mr. _Design (I don't know him well enough to call him Proto yet) for the advice to spin the strain screw while trimming. I was lazy and didn't want move the boxes of bullets stacked in front of my drill press, so I locked the file into my bench vise and put the screw into a battery powered hand drill.

I made 4 passes at the screw, stopping to card the file and measure trigger pull and hammer tension in between each. I stopped when I got to a 10.5 pound trigger pull and 48 ounces of hammer tension.

Shotguncoach · #48 01-20-2024, 09:33 PM

The next area of attention was the trigger return. S&S still had the stock trigger return spring due to a hitch in the reset. After consulting with Mr. Kuhnhausen I removed the trigger and smoothed/rounded the top and front of the trigger hook. This made a tremendous difference based on the amount of movement produced by just the hand spring.

I also smoothed the transition edge of the hammer seat on the rebound slide and put a bit more bevel on the front corner of the slide.

After installing a 12 pound Wilson rebound spring the double action pull was an even 10 pounds with a smoother reset. I think there is still more to be gained but I'd like to test fire it in the current configuration before I make any more internal changes.

The last step was to apply some Testors bright orange paint to the front sight with a toothpick. I'll trim the paint square at the top with a razor after it's fully dry.

We'll all have to wait a bit to find out how all this worked. It's going to rain tomorrow and I'm too old to be cold and wet at the same time unless there are ducks involved.

Shotguncoach · #49 01-21-2024, 12:09 AM

Like a kid on Christmas night I just had to play with one more toy before bed. I've had this one for a while and never unwrapped it.

What's in the bag? Whatever it is, it was wrapped by that friend we all have that uses 87 rolls of duct tape to wrap presents.

Shotguncoach · #50 01-21-2024, 12:37 AM

A nice set of instructions was included but not really necessary. The set up was straightforward and easy with only one hitch: the oil around the tailpiece had congealed and it was stuck in place. A few wacks with the hammer handle I use for sideplate removal got it unstuck and moving easily.

Steelslaver and Protocall_Design are likely to be quite offended by the way my indicator stand is sitting on a rag. This was just a familiarization setup so I didn't worry much about making everything ultra-stable. It worked fine as long as I didn't bump the bench. I'll make a better setup when I do this "for real".

The actual test and fix was surprisingly easy. Just rotate the cylinder slowly and watch the dial. Stop at the high point. If you've ever balanced a tire on a spin balancer it will feel very familiar.

The first test shows .005" of runout in the rod. My first attempt at bending the rod ended up with .005" of runout in the other direction. A little less oomph was required. After some trial and error I figured out that I could control the bend in much the same way that I control the torque on an allen wrench: by not using all my fingers. Two fingers on the bar turned out to be about right.

The final result was less than .001" of runout. I thought at first that I hadn't gotten the indicator back onto the rod and changed the setup to provide more preload on the indicator. Yep, about half a thousandth. Works for me.

I didn't get a measurable difference in trigger pull out of this. I'm pretty sure that's a result of the limitations in my tools, methods, and the amount of time I was willing to put into measuring. The "finger feel" does seem more consistent than before the change. When I get to the true mechanical trainwrecks like Warhorse it may be more easily measured.