Experiencing leading with swaged 38-148 hbwc bullets?

I'm new to centerfire bullseye. I'm shooting international centerfire bullseye at our winter pistol club league. I'm shooting a SW 586 and SW model 14 (finding out which one is "better").

I've experimented with cast lead wadcutters (Lee 358148 tumble lube WC and Lyman 358495 WC), with decent accuracy (~ 1" at 50 ft). I purchased some Precision Delta swaged 38-148 grain HBWC with match lube. I loaded them in 38 special cases with 2.7 grains Bullseye. I got pretty heavy leading within 15 rounds in the forcing cone in three different revolvers I shot them in (SW m14, SW 586, Ruger Security Six). Granted two of them are 357 mag chamberings, but they all had similar heavy leading.).

I ran a bunch of the PD hbwc through my SAECO lubrizer 0.360" with NRA 50/50 beeswax/alox lube to lube both lube grooves (on top of the "match lube"). I also loaded these bullets on a lower powder dosage of 2.5 grains of Bullseye. The subsequent range results were very positive: no leading, and excellent accuracy ( completely cover 5 shots with a quarter-with room to spare- at 50 ft).

I know I changed two variables (powder charge and extra lube). I'll work backward to see if just one makes a difference.

Just how common is leading with pre-lubed swaged hbwc (ie Zero or Precision Delta)? I thought the "match lube" was supposed to be "better", but I'm disappointed in having to overlube a factory lubed bullet.

I emailed PD and reported my leading issues, and asked for help to eliminate. Maybe I was doing something wrong in loading. I received phone call a few days later from PD following up on my email. He said they don't get any leading complaints, and that the "match lube" was Rooster Jacket. He suggested loading with 2.9 grains of W231.

I asked him why I would have leading in three different revolvers with a 2.7 grain load of Bullseye (load verified), and he said it may be the gun with a rough forcing cone. I suppose that's possible, but ALL three revolvers (including a 1960ish made SW model 14)? He didn't have any further recommendations for loading. I asked if there may have been a lot with less-than-desired lube, and he said (sic) "Not likely." I suggested double lubing the match lube bullets. He didn't think it was necessary. Overall, I was impressed with the excellent customer service. I just wish the factory-lubed bullet wouldn't lead.

So my question is: Does anyone else experience leading with soft swaged 38 caliber HBWCs? Does anyone have recommendations for me to eliminated it? I figured 2.7 grains of Bullseye, in a 38 special case (with 2 cannelures-for wadcutters) would be a "no brainer" with a 148 grain hbwc. I didn't have any leading with wheelweight cast bullets in any of these revolvers, even with just one lube groove lubed (with the Lyman 358495).

I was considering doing some firelapping of the barrel-but I'd like to get some feedback from more experienced swaged hbwc shooters first.

Thoughts, recommendations, input?

Thank you in advance.

I have the same problem with my custom 686 PPC gun. I always shot Remington 148 gr HBWC and had no problems. Had trouble finding dealers that carry the Remington HBWC in bulk so I ordered some Zero 148 HBWC's. The leading was horrific. Then I bought some of the Precision Delta with the match lube. Leading was not as bad but still worse than the Remington's. I started doing some research and learned that the Remington's are .358, the Zero's and Precision Delta's are sized at .357. I am wondering if this is a contributor to the problem. BTW, I load my 148 HBWC's with 3.0 gr / HP38 which is the same as 231.

I was considering doing some firelapping of the barrel-

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Bad idea.

Slug the chamber size at the front of the cylinder, and slug the bore.
The lead bullet should ideally be .001" over size to the cylinder.

Number one cause for leading is undersize bullets.
I shoot Lee 148gr TL WC unsized lubed with alox and have zero leading.

OKFC05 said:

Bad idea.

Slug the chamber size at the front of the cylinder, and slug the bore.
The lead bullet should ideally be .001" over size to the cylinder.

Number one cause for leading is undersize bullets.
I shoot Lee 148gr TL WC unsized lubed with alox and have zero leading.

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I too have shot the Lee 358148 TL wc without leading (3.4 grains Bullseye, seated "4 rings out" to just touch the cylinder throat in my 38 special loaded reloads (and shooting in my 357 mag chambers. Club rule, you HAVE to use 38 special cases. The chambering can be 38 spcl or 357mag).

The throats on my SW m14 and SW 586 are .357". The Ruger Security Six's throats are .358". The PD 38-148 grain HBWC are sized .357+" (ie .3572ish). Maybe that's the issue.

I wonder why the lower pressure load of 2.5 gr Bullseye-with "double lubing" the two lube grooves of the match lubed bullet eradicated the leading-even if the bullet diameter is on the "small side" (not .358" to be 0.001" over throat diameter). You'd think the higher powder load of 2.7 would expand the skirt more for a better gas seal (and keep leading down).

I do wish the PD hbwc were sized .358", and not .357". Maybe we can all drop them a note and request it.

Thanks for the feedback.

I was considering firelapping to smooth out the potentially "rough throat". I don't think that's the issue, as all three revolvers had a good dose of leading after 15 rounds-so I think it is the bullet, and not the throats (or the throat of one revolver).

A serious PPC shooter at our club said he always got leading issues with soft swaged 38 hbwc. "Get used to it" he said, and "Let me know if you find a way to cure it." I did tell him of my "double lubing" experiment and results. He was interested.

Note to ZEDO and PRECISION BULLETS... How about some .3585" sized HBWC???

catboat said:

A serious PPC shooter at our club said he always got leading issues with soft swaged 38 hbwc. "Get used to it" he said, and "Let me know if you find a way to cure it." I did tell him of my "double lubing" experiment and results. He was interested.

Note to ZEDO and PRECISION BULLETS... How about some .3585" sized HBWC???

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How about using Remington's 148 gr .358" HBWC? Midway sells them in 2,000's in Remington bulk packaging. Seated flush in .38 special cases over 2.8 gr of Solo 1000 they go 730 fps out of my 6" 14-7 (Taylor throated barrel and .358" cylinder throats) with ridiculous good accuracy (1/4" @ 50 ft, 1" @ 50 yds, 5 shot groups rested with a red dot) and virtually no leading.

This question came up recently in another thread regarding the 148gr. HBWC. Try using a Redding taper crimp die for your 148gr. HBWC's. I'm betting your leading will be minimal as long as your velocity is under 800fps. As to folks that make these goofball claims of 1" groups off a rest @ 50 yds with a red dot............keep in mind that a 4 minute red dot subtends 2" at 50 yds. You have to be relying on magic to shoot inside the dot with all five shots. I use a 6X scope or a Ransom rest when load testing. The Army's AMU would be ecstatic to get some pistol barrels that group at 1" at 50 yds. They test their barrels from machine rest barrel fixtures. I would also concentrate on working up a load for that model 14. As long as it is mechanically tight, it should shoot those wadcutters tighter than the 357Mag guns.

tdan said:

*snip* As to folks that make these goofball claims of 1" groups off a rest @ 50 yds with a red dot............keep in mind that a 4 minute red dot subtends 2" at 50 yds. You have to be relying on magic to shoot inside the dot with all five shots. I use a 6X scope or a Ransom rest when load testing. The Army's AMU would be ecstatic to get some pistol barrels that group at 1" at 50 yds. *snip*

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The OP stated 50 feet, not 50 yards.

I have the same problem, and it is the bullets. That hard coating just comes off in the barrel, no matter what the size, velocity, powder, etc. Those bullets are junk. I am trying overlubing with alox, and if that doesn't work, I'll scrap them. Never had the problem with any other bullets in the same gun. Don't polish your bore or anything. Just throw those bullets away and get some lead.

russ45 said:

I have the same problem, and it is the bullets. That hard coating just comes off in the barrel, no matter what the size, velocity, powder, etc. Those bullets are junk.

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Could be junk bullets, could be that your barrel has a constriction where it's threaded into the frame. That will show the same symptoms and give mediocre accuracy, more so as the distances increase.

Last year I loaded .358 gummies....I mean remmies. While accurate my reloading process with these slugs and my dillon 550 was turtle like. It seemed that I had to bell the case mouth further and the slug needed to be straight and many wanted to lay to one size...I guess because of the bigger diameter.

I thought....ok this year try .357 PDs and hopefully accuracy will stay. I did load 2.8 or 2.9 of B/E...so I may drop to 2.7.

I need to start cleaning brass!!!!!

SW CQB 45 said:

Last year I loaded .358 gummies....I mean remmies. While accurate my reloading process with these slugs and my dillon 550 was turtle like.

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The lube is a little dirty but I load them on a Dillon SDB with no problem. They do need more bell/flare. Measure one, they're tapered and the base, open end, is pretty big.

tomcatt51 said:

The lube is a little dirty but I load them on a Dillon SDB with no problem. They do need more bell/flare. Measure one, they're tapered and the base, open end, is pretty big.

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I hope I did "mess" up and not get the accuracy I got last year based on slowness of reloading.

45 acp and Nina are much easier to reload than 38especiale!!!!!!

It's almost a year after I placed my original posting about leading with the "match lubed" Precision Delta 357-148 grain hbwc bullets in my 38 special reloads.

I still have a bunch left.

I have eliminated the leading by two methods-both requiring a second lube application. I have had success in eliminating leading by running the .357"+ diameter wadcutters in my SAECO .360" sizing die (and applying some 50/50 alox/beeswax (NRA lube) to the bullet. It is slow, and a bit messy, but it works. I have also had success in using thinned Lee Liquid Alox lube. I had an older bottle on my shelf that thickened up. I added some odorless mineral spirits, and now it can be used. It's still thick when squeezed from the bottle, but thinner than it was (it didn't flow at all as enough solvents evidently evaporated over the years).

Accuracy was very good with Bullseye charge weights as low as 2.2 grains (2.5 grains seemed to be a bit more accurate than 2.7 grains, but nothing particulary good or bad about either one of them). The Lee liquid alox lube is faster, and less messy. I prefer this method to apply the second lubing.

After all that, I still like the Lee cast 358-148 grain tumble lube double ended wadcutter with ~ 3.2 grains of Bullseye , seated two rings out in 38 special cases for my SW model 14 full lug (bullet just enters the throat).

I'll continue to use up my Precision Delta HBWC, but I won't be reordering. I recently picked up a H&G 4 cavity model 50 148 grain flat based wadcutter mold (plus my existing Lee 6 cavity 358-148 DEWC tumble lube bullet). I enjoy casting.

So, if you get leading with a HBWC, try a light coat of Lee alox tumble lube. There is a good source (low cost) of it from a vendor on castboolits.com. There is also a recipe for a modified version of it (Lee Liquid Alox or LLA) called something like 45-45-10, which has the LLA, plus Johnson's paste wax, and something else (solvent? carnuba wax? can't remember). It's supposed to dry faster, and be a bit harder (less messy). I may try it, but so far I'm lead free from last year.

Score have come up too. Practice and dry firing is paying off.

Might try Penn Bullets .358 100 gr DBBWC. I've been using them for our winter (indoor) PPC series and really like them. A cylinder full (6) will easily (and consistently) cut a nice cloverleaf at 50 ft. Seated flush in 38 special cases with 3.0 gr Solo 1000 I get 790 fps from my 6" 14-7 and 670 fps from my 2 1/2" 66-5. Haven't chronoed them in my 342. Low recoil, great accuracy. They actually weigh 106 gr.
http://www.pennbullets.com/38/38-caliber.html