Reload problems!

Ok so I just got back from the range with the 15-22 and nine times out of ten the bolt closes after the last round has been shot and the mag is clear. So every time I have to eject the magazine, insert the new one and pull the charging handle back to fire the next rounds in the new magazine. It doesn't matter is I shoot fast or slow it always wants to close. I rarely get to use the bolt release on the side. I'm pretty sure this isn't normal so any help or info is much appreciated. Thanks

Need more info. What ammo are you shooting? How many mags do you have?

Could be a few things. Might be mag springs are needing a tweak if they are old. The follower might need dry lube to help them slide. The bolt catch hinge area might need cleaning, or oil.

Use a snap cap in the mags, chamber it with charging handle. Pull it again this will extract snap cap and bolt should hold open.

Some guys have problems with sub sonic ammo not cycling right.

I'm using Remington rimfire Hollow points 550 High-Velocity. I plan on getting some Federal as soon as I finish off this box

I have two mags and this happens with both

Also this has only been the third time out firing this weapon so the mags are pretty much brand new

if you check your owners manual i believe its going to tell you to stay away from remington ammo (mine does)

kennyb said:

if you check your owners manual i believe its going to tell you to stay away from remington ammo (mine does)

Click to expand...

Oops...Im not sure how I missed that.

It does say that the Remington golden bullet doesn't preform consistently reliably. so...maybe that's my problem

Put an empty mag in with bolt closed. Then charge it kinda quick, don't go king kong on it but somewhat quick. Does the bolt catch engage? Then try it real slow and watch the ping pong paddle. You should see it want to move as the catch clears the bolt face.

Yeah you using remi golds? Thems some nasty boogers. Might have pixie dust gumming up the works.

One other possibility ...

Don't use the mag as a forward grip. It's been shown that is can often cause your problem because you are slightly changing the angle of the magazine in the well.

I trimmed about .050 inch or almost 1mm off the bolt catch spring. Or 1 and 1/2 turns.
It dropped the preload to nearly nothing, so the magazine spring does not have to work as hard. 100% so far.
Don't trim too much off or the catch will rattle. Put the trimmed end in first so the factory end is against the shoulder of the bolt catch plunger.

So after the mod, the bolt hold open was 100%. Then I let a friend shoot the rifle.
The bolt would not stay open after the last round on a lot of the mags. Then we only used the last mag that didn't work. Same thing, sometimes the hold open would work, then it wouldn't.
Then I noticed where they were gripping the rifle. On the mag well, mindful of not touching the mag.
The heel of their hand was riding on the bolt release catch sometimes. So the bolt catch didn't have a chance to work because their hand was pressing on the lever.
They changed thier grip to the handguard and the bolt always held open.
Simple mod to the spring and a simple fix to the shooter.

I think the bolt hold open feature has more to do with the high spring tension of the bolt catch spring and low spring tension of the magazine.
Here's my theory.
When the bolt goes all the way back, there is a limited amount of time for the bolt catch to pop up in front of the bolt. If there is too much spring pressure for the magazine spring to overcome then it takes too long for the bolt catch action to work. When you pull the charging handle back the mechanism works, because of the huge amount of time. You can't pull the charging handle and release it as fast as a gun can.
You would think the lower powered ammo would allow more time for everything to work, as the bolt would be traveling slower. But more force back means the recoil spring has to work harder overcoming that force equaling more time.

Juvicator said:

Might have pixie dust gumming up the works.

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Haha! that **** turns my fingers gold after awhile

It seems to be these 4 things that mess up the cycle.
1) Holding the mag well and your hand touching the bolt release.
2) Holding the magazine.
3) Using the magazine as a rest.
4) Bolt release spring too strong.
So I guess we need to not touch the magazine area at all and everything should be fine.

tacticool22 said:

It seems to be these 4 things that mess up the cycle.
1) Holding the mag well and your hand touching the bolt release.
2) Holding the magazine.
3) Using the magazine as a rest.
4) Bolt release spring too strong.
So I guess we need to not touch the magazine area at all and everything should be fine.

Click to expand...

Im not touching the magazine at all

Shorten the bolt release spring then.

tacticool22 said:

I trimmed about .050 inch or almost 1mm off the bolt catch spring. Or 1 and 1/2 turns.
It dropped the preload to nearly nothing, so the magazine spring does not have to work as hard. 100% so far.
Don't trim too much off or the catch will rattle. Put the trimmed end in first so the factory end is against the shoulder of the bolt catch plunger.

So after the mod, the bolt hold open was 100%. Then I let a friend shoot the rifle.
The bolt would not stay open after the last round on a lot of the mags. Then we only used the last mag that didn't work. Same thing, sometimes the hold open would work, then it wouldn't.
Then I noticed where they were gripping the rifle. On the mag well, mindful of not touching the mag.
The heel of their hand was riding on the bolt release catch sometimes. So the bolt catch didn't have a chance to work because their hand was pressing on the lever.
They changed thier grip to the handguard and the bolt always held open.
Simple mod to the spring and a simple fix to the shooter.

I think the bolt hold open feature has more to do with the high spring tension of the bolt catch spring and low spring tension of the magazine.
Here's my theory.
When the bolt goes all the way back, there is a limited amount of time for the bolt catch to pop up in front of the bolt. If there is too much spring pressure for the magazine spring to overcome then it takes too long for the bolt catch action to work. When you pull the charging handle back the mechanism works, because of the huge amount of time. You can't pull the charging handle and release it as fast as a gun can.
You would think the lower powered ammo would allow more time for everything to work, as the bolt would be traveling slower. But more force back means the recoil spring has to work harder overcoming that force equaling more time.

Click to expand...

Thank you! I will definitely try this.

I just got back from the range and I only had this happen two or three times out of about 350 rounds.

I cleaned the gun before hand oiled the rails and what not. I was also shooting Federal 550

It was an improvement

@OliRage, did you trim the bolt release spring per tacticool22's instructions before this last outing when you said you had two or three failures to hold open? How has it been working since then?
I've had this problem quite a lot lately, shooting Federal 550 bulk packs from Walmart (the only cartridges I've used in this rifle so far). I cringe every time I hear that click, since the book warns about damage from dry firing. Thinking of trimming my spring.
BTW, in case you haven't noticed, there's a cat on your head.

This morning I did what I should have done in the first place: I separated the lower from the upper and inserted an empty mag so I could observe how the mag follower interacts with the bolt catch. Now that I understand how this thing is supposed to work I'm not surprised that it sometimes doesn't. When the little finger on the follower that protrudes out the back side of the mag pushes up on the catch rocker, the two surfaces have to slide, since the follower is moving more or less straight up and the rocker is rotating about an axis parallel to the rifle's barrel (the pin that holds the rocker in place). If I push the follower down, it almost always sticks. If I punch it quickly (trying to simulate what happens when the last round leaves the mag) it usually pops up as it should, but not 100 percent of the time. There's also considerable side-to-side slop in the finger, which makes it more likely to jam when the finger tip and the surface it contacts on the catch rocker bind up.
I'm sure that a little oil on these two parts where they meet would fix this, but obviously that would attract crud. I tried some "plastic-safe" lubricant and it didn't seem to help. Ditto for cleaning the two surfaces; they just seem to want to bind no matter what I do.
I'll bet that trimming the spring as tacticool22 recommends would work, but when I asked a S&W tech about this he freaked out and said it would void the warranty. No surprise there. He warned that if the spring is too weak it can cause other damage to the gun. Forgive me; I know I'm a wimp when it comes to voiding a warranty.
So I'm no better off except for understanding now what's causing the bolt not to hold open. If only I could install an itty-bitty roller on the tip of the follower finger! I wonder whether sanding a radius on there (about an axis parallel to the catch pin) would help, or maybe just filing the left edge of the tip off (viewed from the rear)? I suppose the worst that can happen is I have to buy a new follower.
For now I'll keep it clean and see if I can isolate the problem to one magazine in particular. My apologies for the long post. Thanks to everybody who contributes here; you are the best.

If you cut the spring too short, just buy a new one.
I don't know what spring the tech thought you were going to trim, but how could replacing a spring void the warranty. It's the spring under the bolt release "paddle" I tried all the polishing and cleaninig, running it dry and with lots of oil and the only thing that worked was trimming the spring.

Yeah, I'm not 100 percent sure he was thinking about the same spring I was, but he said it could cause other damage and "we'll be able to tell what you did." Don't get me wrong, he was friendly and very helpful.
Another concern I have is pressing the pin out of the polymer and back in again. I'm assuming this is a roll pin since I can see daylight through it? Just my luck I'd chew up the lower and need a new one. I doubt they'd give me one since users are not supposed to disassemble that part when under warranty.
Anyhow, the good news is I just took out the follower in one of my mags and touched the left upper edge of what I'm calling the "finger" on a belt sander at about a 45-degree angle. Then I clamped it in a vise and smoothed the tip off by hand with fine-grit abrasive cloth and polished it with the back of the cloth. Now when I put the empty mag in and press and release the follower with my finger, it pops all the way back up to fully actuate the bolt catch. I see no way the bolt can fail to hold open now. If I do my other mags I think I'll use a hand file, however, since removing too much from the finger will keep it from pushing the rocker (interior part of what you've called the "paddle") all the way up. With my modified follower, if I pull the charging handle back with the empty mag in, the catch still seems to engage fully (paddle won't move any farther if I push in on the lower part of the paddle) so I don't think I removed too much.
I think it's not so much the polishing that did the trick, but the angle I put on the left upper edge of the finger that eliminates the binding between it and the rocker. The two parts can now slide past each other more easily. Before, the action was sort of like propping something up with a stick, with the finger being the stick.
BTW, when the S&W tech left the phone for a minute to consult with someone, I could hear small talk and laughter in the background unrelated to my call. Nice to see bright, productive people doing their thing at a solid company in a red-hot industry. This is my first experience with S&W and I give them a big thumbs up.