It can be racked with the safety engaged.
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What does the safety on the M&Ps actually do?
- Thread starter shooter7
- Start date
It can be racked with the safety engaged.
The M&P, like the Springfield XD is a single action pistol.
Fastbolt
Member
Using increasingly accepted newer definitions, the M&P is considered a DAO pistol because of how the sear's rear profile still moves the striker backward, even though it's not very much. That's how it was explained to us, anyway.
I try not to get to wrapped up around the axle about how a number of the manufacturers are using nuances and subtleties when it comes to labeling their new designs, though.
The "Constant Double Action" description used by Glock, for example, can get even some Glock enthusiasts to arguing. I've even listened to an argument stating that HK engineers are wrong to describe the functioning of the P7 as gas operated. How about Sig's Enhanced Double Action (which is what they technically call the design more commonly labeled the DAK)? Or the LEM?
I'm willing to accept whatever a particular manufacturer has decided to call their new design, as it fits within the guidelines used by ATF.
Whether or not a particular definition is accepted or not doesn't change the fact that it is what it is.....a single action mechanism. The striker is held at the fully cocked position by the sear until the sear releases it. If you think it's anything else you're kidding yourself.The only reason the striker moves rearward (imperceptibly) is because the sear has a slight camming effect as it travels through a very small arc when it releases the striker.
Fastbolt
Member
By design, apparently.
This sort of "definition ambiguity" doesn't really bother me, though, any more than a Double Action revolver being called a Traditional Double Action revolver, or vice versa.
How about when the early description of DA revolvers including 'trigger cocking'?
Then there's the whole 'traditional double action' pistol description commonly used to describe DA/SA capable pistols.
Then, there's also some folks who apparently like to argue that a 'true' DAO pistol's trigger can be functioned repeatedly without having to have the slide retracted a certain distance, and that DAO pistols which can't do this aren't 'true' DAO pistols ... which would apparently require the 'traditional' S&W metal-framed DAO pistols be described as something other than DAO, as well as Glock's 'constant' DA pistols.
As for kidding myself? Why would I have to be kidding myself?
I don't much care what S&W calls their design. (Or what any other manufacturer calls one of their new designs.) Hair splitting, shading of terms or even outright sophistry don't really bother me in some instances. I only need to understand how it operates, be able to safely handle and manipulate it, maintain it, shoot it and perform simple repairs if needed. I don't see the value of trying to convince a manufacturer that they should change their descriptions.
Kind of like hearing folks 'take sides' when it comes to calling a specific part a striker or a firing pin.
ncbengal
Member
M&P .40 come with thumb safety optional. Mine is with. Trigger safety is additional. I don't know if either blocks trigger or striker. Word I hear is that in a high-stress situation, or with a fire fight imminent, the cop does not need to deal with questions like is the safety on or off. I guess that is hard to understand for those of us who have never faced an instantaneous life or death decision with ones-self or an assailant. Just pull trigger, bang. The Glock success, I'm told, is that simple is better. Pull trigger and bang.
elrodcod - I see your new here, welcome!
FYI, Fastbolt is far and away the most experienced S&W semi auto pistol expert - (yes, expert, and I don't throw that term around lightly as some here do) on this board. His expertise is not limited to S&W semi auto's either.
A S&W trained agency armorer (among other brands as well) he has advised many, who were wise enough to listen, on this and many other gunboards, on all things semi auto.
What he has forgotten about handguns, I'll never know. I personally have learned much from his posts.
The S&W rep, who was present at my former agencies T&E of the M&P 40 pistol, referred to it as a "DAO". I expect, like Fastbolt, HE knows what he's talking about.
Perhaps you post came across differently than you intended. Hard to tell sometimes without the use of emoticons. Regards 18DAI.
FYI, Fastbolt is far and away the most experienced S&W semi auto pistol expert - (yes, expert, and I don't throw that term around lightly as some here do) on this board. His expertise is not limited to S&W semi auto's either.
A S&W trained agency armorer (among other brands as well) he has advised many, who were wise enough to listen, on this and many other gunboards, on all things semi auto.
What he has forgotten about handguns, I'll never know. I personally have learned much from his posts.
The S&W rep, who was present at my former agencies T&E of the M&P 40 pistol, referred to it as a "DAO". I expect, like Fastbolt, HE knows what he's talking about.
Perhaps you post came across differently than you intended. Hard to tell sometimes without the use of emoticons.
Regards 18DAI.elrodcod - I see your new here, welcome!
FYI, Fastbolt is far and away the most experienced S&W semi auto pistol expert - (yes, expert, and I don't throw that term around lightly as some here do) on this board. His expertise is not limited to S&W semi auto's either.
A S&W trained agency armorer (among other brands as well) he has advised many, who were wise enough to listen, on this and many other gunboards, on all things semi auto.
What he has forgotten about handguns, I'll never know. I personally have learned much from his posts.
The S&W rep, who was present at my former agencies T&E of the M&P 40 pistol, referred to it as a "DAO". I expect, like Fastbolt, HE knows what he's talking about.
Perhaps you post came across differently than you intended. Hard to tell sometimes without the use of emoticons.
I'm impressed.
http://http://www.genitron.com/HandgunDB/DB-Handgun-Detail.asp?ID=2984
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PERAZZI
Member
Genitron.com: Details for Smith & Wesson M&P Compact 9mm Luger Pistol
this might work better..
Your welcome in advance...
this might work better..
Your welcome in advance...
davidwilp
Member
Fastbolt: Are you confident in the in the M&P mechanism that holds the striker back and the mechanism used to block the striker until the trigger is pulled in terms of nothing breaking and accidentally letting the striker pin make the bullet go bang?
Not speaking for fastbolt, but I don't think anyone would tell you it's absolutely impossible. For example, it would be possible for the striker to break forward of the locking device. In fact, I've seen a picture of an early design striker that did extactly that, breaking at the forward spring retention collar. However, in that particular instance, the lack of mass of the free part didn't/wouldn't strike the primer hard enough to fire the round. Would it be possible for the striker to break at a point that would release the striker with enough force to fire the round? Don't know.
What you are postulating is extremely unlikely. The striker is retained in position by the sear, locked by the firing pin safety device. In order for the weapon to fire, the hinged trigger must actuate the trigger bar, which then both releases the firing pin safety plunger and the sear in order to fire the weapon.
However, you're the only person who can make the decision concerning your perceived level of safety. I can tell you we have-collectively at work- over 800,000 person hours of carry without incident.
What you are postulating is extremely unlikely. The striker is retained in position by the sear, locked by the firing pin safety device. In order for the weapon to fire, the hinged trigger must actuate the trigger bar, which then both releases the firing pin safety plunger and the sear in order to fire the weapon.
However, you're the only person who can make the decision concerning your perceived level of safety. I can tell you we have-collectively at work- over 800,000 person hours of carry without incident.
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davidwilp
Member
Assuming something broke and the striker did lunge forward, presumable the "striker safety" (don't know the actual term for it) would prevent the striker from hitting the primer I would think. Isn't there a safety that is only moved out of the way by action of pulling the trigger?
Fastbolt
Member
I certainly agree that when it comes to mechanical equipment, used by people, never say never.
People can abuse a piece of equipment, not maintain it properly, not be as familiar with it as they should be, not handle & manipulate safely or properly as intended, etc ... and risk having something cause a functioning problem or an unsafe condition.
Then there's the potential for an unknown manufacturing defect to occur.
The thing is that the engineering team that developed this gun anticipated that it would be carried and used by LE customers. They had the benefit of years of experience with a couple of other plastic-framed, striker-fired pistol designs under their belt when they were working on this new design series. They also had the experience acquired since they first started making semiauto center fire pistols (starting back about '52 when the original M39 was being developed for military consideration). It's not like they're exactly new to semiauto pistols.
The M&P trigger safety is a hinged design, incorporating a hinged trigger block. The trigger block is disengaged by pressing on the lower section, which pivots the trigger block out of the way and allows the trigger to be pressed to the rear to release the striker. As with any handgun, but especially with those which incorporate a safety in the trigger, protecting the trigger from contact with anything other than the intentional placement of the shooter's index finger is essential.
I seem to recall reading about one make of holster which had to be changed because it allowed part of the holster to contact the lower section of the M&P trigger during holstering, which could potentially result in an unintentional discharge. The same potential problem could occur, as has been discussed, if part of a garment were to become snagged in the trigger guard during holstering. Holster design, as well as holster selection for the desired application and safe/proper usage are important considerations.
The striker safety safety plunger is designed to block the striker from moving forward until the trigger is pulled.
The sear has a spring & plunger.
The gun is designed not to fire if the slide is out of battery 1/4" or more.
The magazine safety feature, in models so equipped, is designed so the trigger bar will not engage with the sear unless the magazine is inserted and displaces the lever upward.
The thumb safety, in models so equipped, blocks the trigger bar from moving to the rear to contact the sear.
The models equipped with the ILS (internal lock system) can be locked so that the trigger bar is disengaged from the sear.
The armorer manual recommends that the M&P should be completely disassembled by a qualified armorer once a year and inspected. Not an uncommon recommendation for service weapons. (Although even armorers are reminded that the sear housing block should never be disassembled for regular cleaning).
It's recommended that at least every 6 months, or after firing, the M&P pistol should be cleaned with attention given to the barrel, slide, frame & magazines.
Armorers are also reminded to look for signs of wear and spring damage, as well as signs of unauthorized polishing or filing. In other words, things that could potentially cause improper functioning (which could obviously be a safety issue). You'd think tinkering or attempts at modifying an issued gun wouldn't occur, but sometimes people are people.
Now, I trust my M&P pistols to function and operate as designed. I maintain and inspect them as recommended and as I've been trained. I'm very careful when it comes to selecting good quality factory fresh ammunition from one or another of the major ammunition companies which meets SAMMI specs and choosing holsters for safe, proper fit & function.
Safety occurs first and foremost between the ears. It's a constant state of mind which must not be compromised by inattention, complacency or lack of familiarity/knowledge.
In other words, while the company has obviously taken steps to make the M&P as safe as possible in design and manufacturing, it's still critical that the owner/user do their part when owning & using the gun.
I know folks who don't feel comfortable carrying a clocked & locked 1911 style pistol. Could a cocked & locked 1911 somehow end up in a condition which allowed it to fire? I used to know a fellow who reportedly stuffed one in his back pocket and jumped into his car ... and the wrong set of conditions occurred. He got a new hole in his butt.
However, I've known many more folks who experienced an unwanted discharge because of either improper handling, inattention, a stress-induced muscular interaction or some modification which resulted in an unsafe condition.
I've had the thumb safety become knocked off on a Commander which was produced before the series 80 firing pin safety. That's one of the reasons I came to own more 1911 holsters with either retention straps under the hammer, or else an open top model with a raised 'shield' which protects the thumb safety from contact with my torso. Personally, I feel more comfortable even carrying my 1911's which have firing pin safety plungers in holsters which protect the thumb safeties and/or have a strap under the cocked hammer.
Like I said earlier, I've become increasingly conservative when it comes to safety matters the longer I've been around guns (and I fired my first handgun and started learning to shoot more than 50 years ago).
Just because I feel safe carrying my M&P 45 w/thumb safeties and my M&P 40c w/o thumb safeties doesn't mean I think everyone else will feel the same way, although obviously if it involves an issued weapon I'd expect proper training and holster selection would allow the issued user to carry their issued weapon without undue worry ... presuming they didn't tinker with it and maintained it as recommended at the user level (field-stripping & cleaning) as taught and kept the agency armorer(s) informed of any unusual conditions which occurred (like complete submersion in water or some other contaminant, dropping the gun onto hard surfaces or other harsh conditions which could potentially damage something).
Then again, I still remember the time I was handed a freezer bag of almost the correct number of parts of an issued weapon. I was told the fellow to whom the gun had been issued had claimed to have thought it needed a more thorough cleaning and he'd tried to completely disassemble the gun (knowing full well it wasn't permitted except by an armorer or as authorized by an armorer). People are people, at times ...
I can't tell you whether lawfully carrying a M&P pistol is the right thing for you to do (especially as a member of the non-LE public). Not my place. I wouldn't presume to pretend I could make that decision for you, regardless of the design/make/model. I don't shill guns, anyway.
I've seen and been told of people experiencing unintentional discharges using handguns with heavy DA/DAO triggers, too, FWIW.
People can abuse a piece of equipment, not maintain it properly, not be as familiar with it as they should be, not handle & manipulate safely or properly as intended, etc ... and risk having something cause a functioning problem or an unsafe condition.
Then there's the potential for an unknown manufacturing defect to occur.
The thing is that the engineering team that developed this gun anticipated that it would be carried and used by LE customers. They had the benefit of years of experience with a couple of other plastic-framed, striker-fired pistol designs under their belt when they were working on this new design series. They also had the experience acquired since they first started making semiauto center fire pistols (starting back about '52 when the original M39 was being developed for military consideration). It's not like they're exactly new to semiauto pistols.
The M&P trigger safety is a hinged design, incorporating a hinged trigger block. The trigger block is disengaged by pressing on the lower section, which pivots the trigger block out of the way and allows the trigger to be pressed to the rear to release the striker. As with any handgun, but especially with those which incorporate a safety in the trigger, protecting the trigger from contact with anything other than the intentional placement of the shooter's index finger is essential.
I seem to recall reading about one make of holster which had to be changed because it allowed part of the holster to contact the lower section of the M&P trigger during holstering, which could potentially result in an unintentional discharge. The same potential problem could occur, as has been discussed, if part of a garment were to become snagged in the trigger guard during holstering. Holster design, as well as holster selection for the desired application and safe/proper usage are important considerations.
The striker safety safety plunger is designed to block the striker from moving forward until the trigger is pulled.
The sear has a spring & plunger.
The gun is designed not to fire if the slide is out of battery 1/4" or more.
The magazine safety feature, in models so equipped, is designed so the trigger bar will not engage with the sear unless the magazine is inserted and displaces the lever upward.
The thumb safety, in models so equipped, blocks the trigger bar from moving to the rear to contact the sear.
The models equipped with the ILS (internal lock system) can be locked so that the trigger bar is disengaged from the sear.
The armorer manual recommends that the M&P should be completely disassembled by a qualified armorer once a year and inspected. Not an uncommon recommendation for service weapons. (Although even armorers are reminded that the sear housing block should never be disassembled for regular cleaning).
It's recommended that at least every 6 months, or after firing, the M&P pistol should be cleaned with attention given to the barrel, slide, frame & magazines.
Armorers are also reminded to look for signs of wear and spring damage, as well as signs of unauthorized polishing or filing. In other words, things that could potentially cause improper functioning (which could obviously be a safety issue). You'd think tinkering or attempts at modifying an issued gun wouldn't occur, but sometimes people are people.
Now, I trust my M&P pistols to function and operate as designed. I maintain and inspect them as recommended and as I've been trained. I'm very careful when it comes to selecting good quality factory fresh ammunition from one or another of the major ammunition companies which meets SAMMI specs and choosing holsters for safe, proper fit & function.
Safety occurs first and foremost between the ears. It's a constant state of mind which must not be compromised by inattention, complacency or lack of familiarity/knowledge.
In other words, while the company has obviously taken steps to make the M&P as safe as possible in design and manufacturing, it's still critical that the owner/user do their part when owning & using the gun.
I know folks who don't feel comfortable carrying a clocked & locked 1911 style pistol. Could a cocked & locked 1911 somehow end up in a condition which allowed it to fire? I used to know a fellow who reportedly stuffed one in his back pocket and jumped into his car ... and the wrong set of conditions occurred. He got a new hole in his butt.
However, I've known many more folks who experienced an unwanted discharge because of either improper handling, inattention, a stress-induced muscular interaction or some modification which resulted in an unsafe condition.
I've had the thumb safety become knocked off on a Commander which was produced before the series 80 firing pin safety. That's one of the reasons I came to own more 1911 holsters with either retention straps under the hammer, or else an open top model with a raised 'shield' which protects the thumb safety from contact with my torso. Personally, I feel more comfortable even carrying my 1911's which have firing pin safety plungers in holsters which protect the thumb safeties and/or have a strap under the cocked hammer.
Like I said earlier, I've become increasingly conservative when it comes to safety matters the longer I've been around guns (and I fired my first handgun and started learning to shoot more than 50 years ago).
Just because I feel safe carrying my M&P 45 w/thumb safeties and my M&P 40c w/o thumb safeties doesn't mean I think everyone else will feel the same way, although obviously if it involves an issued weapon I'd expect proper training and holster selection would allow the issued user to carry their issued weapon without undue worry ... presuming they didn't tinker with it and maintained it as recommended at the user level (field-stripping & cleaning) as taught and kept the agency armorer(s) informed of any unusual conditions which occurred (like complete submersion in water or some other contaminant, dropping the gun onto hard surfaces or other harsh conditions which could potentially damage something).
Then again, I still remember the time I was handed a freezer bag of almost the correct number of parts of an issued weapon. I was told the fellow to whom the gun had been issued had claimed to have thought it needed a more thorough cleaning and he'd tried to completely disassemble the gun (knowing full well it wasn't permitted except by an armorer or as authorized by an armorer). People are people, at times ...
I can't tell you whether lawfully carrying a M&P pistol is the right thing for you to do (especially as a member of the non-LE public). Not my place. I wouldn't presume to pretend I could make that decision for you, regardless of the design/make/model. I don't shill guns, anyway.
I've seen and been told of people experiencing unintentional discharges using handguns with heavy DA/DAO triggers, too, FWIW.
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Fastbolt
Member
The striker plunger safety in the M&P is lifted out of the way of the striker by the trigger being pulled, by virtue of a raised camming surface (located on a vertical extension of the trigger bar) being pushed under the bottom of the plunger.
