Dead Trigger

While shooting my S&W M&P 40 caliber I experienced what is known as a "dead trigger." The pistol did not cock but could be cocked manually by pulling back the slide. I sent the pistol back to Smith and received it back but have not shot it yet.
I also noticed that an individual, whom I believe to be a LEO, posting on the Glock forum, experienced the same problem. He switched back to Glocks for obvious reasons.
My 9mm M&P's have digested a lot of rounds without this problem.
If Smith and Wesson expects to garner some of the law enforcement market, they need to correct this problem fast.
Has anyone else experienced this problem?
Does anyone know if this problem has been corrected and what causes it?

A search about Apex Tactical and sears will most likely get all of your questions answered. What's happening is the oem sear and plunger are too small so the sear flutters from recoil causing the "dead trigger"
A lot of us have had Apex Tactical drill our sear housing and replace the spring and plunger which fixed the problem. Word has it that S&W has acknowledged the problem and is already putting the bigger parts in new deliveries but some of the old might still be out there.

fonejack54 said:

A search about Apex Tactical and sears will most likely get all of your questions answered. What's happening is the oem sear and plunger are too small so the sear flutters from recoil causing the "dead trigger"
A lot of us have had Apex Tactical drill our sear housing and replace the spring and plunger which fixed the problem. Word has it that S&W has acknowledged the problem and is already putting the bigger parts in new deliveries but some of the old might still be out there.

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Thanks for the info and heads up. I hope Smith fixed the problem. I want to see a US firm compete head on with Glock with a product just as good!

Herbert Cannon said:

While shooting my S&W M&P 40 caliber I experienced what is known as a "dead trigger." The pistol did not cock but could be cocked manually by pulling back the slide. I sent the pistol back to Smith and received it back but have not shot it yet.
I also noticed that an individual, whom I believe to be a LEO, posting on the Glock forum, experienced the same problem. He switched back to Glocks for obvious reasons.
My 9mm M&P's have digested a lot of rounds without this problem.
If Smith and Wesson expects to garner some of the law enforcement market, they need to correct this problem fast.
Has anyone else experienced this problem?
Does anyone know if this problem has been corrected and what causes it?

Click to expand...

The "dead trigger" issue also exists with Glock. There are numerous posts, articles, etc related to glock problems. ANY manufacturer can get a bad unit out the door.

You shouldn't have to install $100 worth of aftermarket parts in your M&P to get a good, reliable trigger pull. This aftermarket trigger segment for the M&Ps seems like a massive scheme. People are spending big $$$ to buy the triggers that should have been in their guns originally.

Dragon88 said:

You shouldn't have to install $100 worth of aftermarket parts in your M&P to get a good, reliable trigger pull. This aftermarket trigger segment for the M&Ps seems like a massive scheme. People are spending big $$$ to buy the triggers that should have been in their guns originally.

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Yes, this bothers me as well. I had a similar problem with my Night Guard revolver where I had to replace the stock firing pin with an Apex Tactical to get reliable ignition. S&W tried to claim it was bad ammo causing the problem, but once I replaced the F/P I never seemed to get any more "bad ammo". In the other thread I started a few guys said the trigger would get better after I shot the M&P some more. I hope so. It's not unusable now, but it's not near as good as a Glock or XDm right out of the box.

Dragon88 said:

You shouldn't have to install $100 worth of aftermarket parts in your M&P to get a good, reliable trigger pull. This aftermarket trigger segment for the M&Ps seems like a massive scheme. People are spending big $$$ to buy the triggers that should have been in their guns originally.

Click to expand...

I agree, S&W should know from all the complaints about their M&P triggers and fix the problems.

On the other hand, would you not want the Apex options?

i am surprized to here that. my local dealer sell lots of them and has never had a complaint on any m&p. i have 3 m&p 40c one with a ten pd trigger two with 6.5 pound trigger, one which has over 5000 rd thru it and they always work great

S&W quite probably knows all about the trigger problems in general, as well as dead triggers....

Why they don't use the improved sear and drop safety plunger that Apex is selling (along with some other springs), I don't know.... Unless there are patent issues.

They will fix your sear block if you have the older version, and are having problems. I don't think a "I'd like to fix this, just in case" would fly. Apex is charging under $50 for customers.

You really shouldn't have to put $100-$150 into a new gun to get a good trigger out of it, but my guess is that S&W is building these for a price point, and doesn't want to take that final step.

The triggers on an unmodified M&P will smooth out, but the DCAEK kit just fixes that immediately, and it's DIY if you don't mind tackling it. (Or about a half-hour for a smith.)

Unfortunately, adding the DCAEK kit could also turn on the dead trigger effect. The good news is that you'll notice it real fast....

I don't know if Brownells or Midway is shipping the newer sear blocks or not.... There's no way to tell which one you've got without removing the sear, which may go flying across the room (or at least the spring and plunger might).... (I don't know if Brownells' or Midway's CS people would know, either.)

Allegedly, S&W started slipstreaming these updated sear blocks in about last October, but it's still a long pipeline, and anybody's guess what you've got, or what you'll get from an aftermarket supplier.

(BTW, my understanding is that the un-modified M&P still might give you a dead trigger with the older sear setup, eventually. Dirt, apparently. I also heard about a guy with a brand new one that more or less came with a dead trigger. No idea which sear block he's got, though. My guess there is tramp metal or leftover manufacturing crud.)

Regards,

I've got just over 4K rounds thru a 45 full size and as of yet, no trigger problems. Glock trigger return springs will occasionally break causing the trigger not to return to the ready position. If a shooter is properly reseting the trigger after each shot, it might take a little while to notice the condition. Having not experienced the issue with an M&P, I don't know if proper trigger reset will also mask the problem.

Dragon88 said:

You shouldn't have to install $100 worth of aftermarket parts in your M&P to get a good, reliable trigger pull. This aftermarket trigger segment for the M&Ps seems like a massive scheme. People are spending big $$$ to buy the triggers that should have been in their guns originally.

Click to expand...

"good, reliable trigger pull. " ---Please define this.
"scheme" ? --- do you own any 1911's , Glock, Ruger 10/22, or maybe Harley Davidson's products,

What you and I may consider a "good trigger", the newcomer may find it too light ; too short , and would injure himself or others. Then blame the weapon for his AD. Of course this could happen with any factory weapon,,,, I think you can see where this is going. (attorneys) . So Manufacturers make the weapons as safe as possible yet still be acceptable to the masses.

I would guess that S&W has to stay away from the "gray line" as one approaches a "good/great trigger" (CYA).

Every pistol has after market parts to "improve" , function/reliability/trigger/grip/ejection/feed/ etc. etc. If any weapon can be modified in some way, or customized, There will be a business to fill this market. (AR15)
I put the Apex FSS in my pro. Why?, Because it more closely emulates my 1911 in trigger performance.
Was it necessary? no. Wanted? Yes.
Why didn't S&W do this type of trigger? I don't know, Legal council maybe? who knows. I'm sure all the manufacturers can put outstanding triggers in their weapons, but the risk of litigation outweighs the profit.
It seems that in today's society, a business owner/ entrepreneur, has to constantly be looking over his shoulder for liability exposure.
No one is responsible for their failures anymore.
It's always the fault of others.

No disrespect intended, I just wasn't sure if you "saw" the Big Picture.

Sorry, didn't intend to ramble on in tangents,
My .02

g_conway said:

The "dead trigger" issue also exists with Glock. There are numerous posts, articles, etc related to glock problems. ANY manufacturer can get a bad unit out the door.

Click to expand...

I have several Glocks and never had a problem with any of them. I did have a problem with an XD trigger; but that was after I had the factory customized it with a trigger job. I sent it back and they fixed it.
I regularly watch the Glock forum and have read innumerable articles and books available on the Glock and have not seen anything about " dead triggers."
There is a lot of griping about the Gen 4 Glocks. Seems to me Glock was trying to fix something not broken.
Seems as if the M&P had a trigger problem and fixed it. The two most popular pistols on the IPSC and IDPA circuit seem to be S&W and Glock. Those shooters shoot a whole lot. I know I shot IPSC for twelve years back in the day that the 1911 ruled. A Pistol with a problem and unable to take a lot of rounds did not last long with those shooters. Usage is the best test. I am hoping Smith gets a lot of the police market back from Glock with the M&P.

Dragon88 said:

You shouldn't have to install $100 worth of aftermarket parts in your M&P to get a good, reliable trigger pull. This aftermarket trigger segment for the M&Ps seems like a massive scheme. People are spending big $$$ to buy the triggers that should have been in their guns originally.

Click to expand...

While I agree with you - take a look at the aftermarket for both 1911's and Glocks and the industry they have spawned. There will always be aftermarket items available for popular pistols.

walkin' trails said:

I've got just over 4K rounds thru a 45 full size and as of yet, no trigger problems. Glock trigger return springs will occasionally break causing the trigger not to return to the ready position. If a shooter is properly reseting the trigger after each shot, it might take a little while to notice the condition. Having not experienced the issue with an M&P, I don't know if proper trigger reset will also mask the problem.

Click to expand...

walkin' trails:

Apex sells a "RAM" ("Reset Assist Mechanism") for all the M&P's except those with a thumb safety that can help the trigger reset. It seems to be able to get the trigger to reset with a broken spring, and makes an audible "click" in some guns (YMMV due to manufacturing tolerances) when reset occurs. Probably not the worst idea in the world....

(You also have to remove the Hilary Lock, if present, to install the RAM, but I get the feeling that nobody'd mind too much.)

I really think that S&W dropped the ball on the trigger, looking at the Apex parts almost trivial differences from stock. The drop safety plunger is probably the worst offender - the loop in the trigger bar has to cross the top of the plunger (to move it out of the way so the striker can hit the primer), and the geometry is just wrong. Whether this is intended to keep the trigger stiffer as a CYA or just ended up that way, I don't know.... The sear shape is also a little wrong (per Apex and Dan Burwell), but we probably could live with that. I just can't see CYA as a defense in the case of the drop safety plunger. it does reduce trigger pull a bit, but mostly, it's just considerably smoother, and doesn't (IMHO) seem to change much else.

The dead trigger thing seems to have just cropped up - older guns without the Apex mods, and new ones with them.... They've been shipping a Massachusetts-compliant sear block for some time (with a rather heavy trigger pull), and it turns out that's the fix, but for those of us who don't live in MA, cutting the trigger back to four or five pounds (still, IMHO, heavy enough to protect the new shooter) isn't all that hard. The older sear block gives you more than that - I forget the numbers, but still under the MA requirement.

In process, though, the older non-MA sear block uses a microscopic spring and plunger to reset the sear, and that seems to be the failure point - just not enough spring there to keep the sear up to grab the striker during recoil. I'm not sure if that was an attempt to keep the trigger pull low, or just "let's just use what fits". FWIW, updating the older sear block requires that the hole in the sear block be enlarged to take the new spring, and this appears to require some metal to be removed beside the hole. Tough on the cutters, and probably why DIY needs a really good mill and some machining skill. (The hole is slightly off-center in the sear's slot in the block.

Those things should come out the door at four or five pounds. If I wanted a Sigma, I would have bought one....

Regards,

ericf said:

"good, reliable trigger pull. " ---Please define this.
"scheme" ? --- do you own any 1911's , Glock, Ruger 10/22, or maybe Harley Davidson's products,

What you and I may consider a "good trigger", the newcomer may find it too light ; too short , and would injure himself or others. Then blame the weapon for his AD. Of course this could happen with any factory weapon,,,, I think you can see where this is going. (attorneys) . So Manufacturers make the weapons as safe as possible yet still be acceptable to the masses.

I would guess that S&W has to stay away from the "gray line" as one approaches a "good/great trigger" (CYA).

Every pistol has after market parts to "improve" , function/reliability/trigger/grip/ejection/feed/ etc. etc. If any weapon can be modified in some way, or customized, There will be a business to fill this market. (AR15)
I put the Apex FSS in my pro. Why?, Because it more closely emulates my 1911 in trigger performance.
Was it necessary? no. Wanted? Yes.
Why didn't S&W do this type of trigger? I don't know, Legal council maybe? who knows. I'm sure all the manufacturers can put outstanding triggers in their weapons, but the risk of litigation outweighs the profit.
It seems that in today's society, a business owner/ entrepreneur, has to constantly be looking over his shoulder for liability exposure.
No one is responsible for their failures anymore.
It's always the fault of others.

No disrespect intended, I just wasn't sure if you "saw" the Big Picture.

Sorry, didn't intend to ramble on in tangents,
My .02

Click to expand...

Yes, I do see the "big picture", and the big picture is that M&Ps are severely lacking in the trigger department compared to other offerings. Not just poor trigger pull out of the box, but also prone to breaking with this "dead trigger" malfunction.

Let's say I buy a new Glock and I don't like the trigger. It will cost me $12.98 in parts and half an hour to clean it up, lighten it, make it heavier with the NY trigger, whatever I want to do. The only tool required is one punch. If I leave the trigger stock, it may be heavy and gritty but it's still reliable.

If an M&P trigger isn't satisfactory to me, I'm looking at $113 in parts to make it better. That's quite a significant difference. Additionally, if I don't do anything with my M&P trigger, the stock parts may give me a "dead trigger" at some point.

Aftermarket parts should be available for any gun, but with the M&P, the aftermarket triggers are too expensive and too necessary IMO.

g_conway said:

The "dead trigger" issue also exists with Glock. There are numerous posts, articles, etc related to glock problems. ANY manufacturer can get a bad unit out the door.

Click to expand...

Trigger Spring Broke? Keep Shooting! - Glock Talk

Dragon88 said:

Yes, I do see the "big picture", and the big picture is that M&Ps are severely lacking in the trigger department compared to other offerings. Not just poor trigger pull out of the box, but also prone to breaking with this "dead trigger" malfunction.

Let's say I buy a new Glock and I don't like the trigger. It will cost me $12.98 in parts and half an hour to clean it up, lighten it, make it heavier with the NY trigger, whatever I want to do. The only tool required is one punch. If I leave the trigger stock, it may be heavy and gritty but it's still reliable.

If an M&P trigger isn't satisfactory to me, I'm looking at $113 in parts to make it better. That's quite a significant difference. Additionally, if I don't do anything with my M&P trigger, the stock parts may give me a "dead trigger" at some point.

Aftermarket parts should be available for any gun, but with the M&P, the aftermarket triggers are too expensive and too necessary IMO.

Click to expand...

Actually the Pro series have pretty good triggers. Try them.

Herbert Cannon said:

Actually the Pro series have pretty good triggers. Try them.

Click to expand...

Once again, spending more money to get the trigger that should have been on the gun in the first place.

Trigger

I started with the DCAEK kit for the my Pro. I really couldn't tell much difference over the stock set up.
I took my wife's M&P 9, And basically went through the trigger components, polishing everything. Cost- nothing. Time spent- about one hour. End result, a much smoother pull. If she wants lighter, change out the trigger return spring. I actually think it turned out better than the OEM Pro trigger or the DCAEK kit.
Any poor trigger performance can be made better by the end user, on most production guns, with a little knowledge and some light polishing of the internals.
As for Dead trigger, my wife had the smaller sear spring and never experienced a dead trigger. Many rnds down range.
S&W has resolved the "Possible" issue with the newer block and larger spring. I resolved the "Possibility" of this issue by drilling out the block and putting in the larger components. (ounce of prevention)
You continue to refer to Glock as the ultimate of reliability. I'm sure your not referring to the Gen 4. A lot of reported problems with the Gen4.
And 12.95 for a new part, you can achieve the same result in the M&P by just polishing the trans bar and striker block. (free).
I own both the G19 and the G17 (gen 3's). The M&P Pro9 and the M&P 9 FS. All shoot well, All are reliable. Pro has Apex FSS, other 3 have polished up internals. I have zero complaints with any of them.
If you demand great triggers out-of-the-box, You will have to step up your price point. My son has discovered the hard way, You get what you pay for. After purchase of a DE 1911G. He fired my Wilson, then his DE. I won't repeat his wording for the trigger comparison.
YMMV

Dragon88 said:

Once again, spending more money to get the trigger that should have been on the gun in the first place.

Click to expand...

On mine, I spent $80 more than the regular M&P. Its like paying for the night sights (which I wanted anyway) and getting the great trigger as a bonus.