It seems like whenever a forum member has a shooting issue, someone inevitably suggests the possibility of limp-wristing. How common is this phenomenon among shooters? Who but the most novice of handgunners really holds their weapon that loosely?

I have seen videos on YouTube where people deliberately try to induce a jam by firing a pistol while holding it by just their thumb and forefinger. More often than not, they are unsuccessful.

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Audemus jura nostra defendere

I know that light loads out of a 1911 need a really good grip or the action might not function. I've seen advanced shooters do this.

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USAF, 69-92
Vietnam, 72-73

I have never seen it. My wife is very dainty and shoots all my semi autos up to and including 1911s and 10mm S&Ws. She has never limp wristed any gun.
I have tried on several and it doesn't cause any FTFs.
A few years ago I bought a Ruger SR9C. It couldn't get through a magazine without several FTFs. I joined the Ruger forum to see if this was a common problem. 90% of the posters said I was limp wristing & or ammo sensitive. I tried different ammo.. no help. So against almost everyone on the forums advice I returned it to Ruger. When I got it back both my wife and I have put thousands of rounds through that pistol. I cannot ever remember a FTF/FTE problem since. They replaced the ejector and something else I can't remember off hand.
MY instincts were right. FTF/FTE problems are rare due to limp wristing unless it a a very sensitive pistol which I have yet to own. I am sure the above post about the Colt Commanders is accurate. There must be some that it applies to. But I have have never seen a S&W I could make fail through limp wristing. More myth than many know.

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John 1:17
NRA Life Benefactor

I see it a lot in my novice classes from people who don't have a clue how to hold a handgun. They squeeze the grip until their hands turn blue, but they don't provide a firm arm behind it for the gun to recoil against. I have seen people providing so little control that the M&P 22 would flip up to 45 degrees.

I have never seen an experienced shooter truly limp-wrist. Even when they hold the gun lightly with their fingers, the thumb behind the grip is still attached to an arm firmly locked as the experienced shooter always does.
The test of having the experienced shooter hold the gun lightly does NOT reproduce the problem the novice has.

So far, anyone who successfully completes Basic Pistol gets the idea to lock their arm and learns enough to go practice on the range without a coach.
However, there have been a few take the state mandated carry class who literally NEVER shot a gun before, and you can't always teach them what they need in an hour on a range with 10 people.

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Science plus Art

limp wristing is an excuse fanboys make for guns that aren't running right. Without a doubt M&Ps can be defective like any and ever other handgun on the market whether it be Glock, H&K, Sig, Walther... They all have a certain percentage of bad apples. I don't think Smith puts out a significantly high number of lemons, but it happens.

Limp wristing is a lame excuse as every gun I've ever owned besides the Kahr I sold ran 100% including my attempts to intentionally "limp wrist" the gun.

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unrepentant M&P fanboy

Almost everything, that happens in a REAL gunfight, tends to weaken the classic rigid grip.

Bad position, shooting around corners, shooting below line of sight, forced one handed grip..........

All these things cause a situation totally unlike a 195 pound State Trooper, solidly locked into position, qualifying at the range.

That semi-auto, HAS to have something to recoil AGAINST, or it will/can malfunction.

I too, have tried loosely holding a semi, and they will malfunction.

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NRA Instructor

It ain't just limp wrisitng. Light loads and light bullets can result in the same thing. For instance, one of my 9mm's is built to shoot best with 124 grain bullets. Using 115 grain bullets in concert with target loads can occasionally result in FTE's.

There are other contributing factors such as loads, spring rates, etc that will affect ejection, but limp wristing is not necessarily having a loose grip. You can have a death grip on the gun and still "limp wrist". It's about managing recoil. Next time your at the range watch people shoot and pay attention to how the gun recoils. Watch the muzzle flip. There are a TON of people who don't manage recoil properly. It can be only a fraction of a second. Look and see how people are gripping the gun, who is readjusting their grip after each shot (because it is getting away from them), who doesn't have a high tang grip, who's elbows are pointed straight down at the ground, who's tea cupping, etc, etc. Those are all indicators of proficiency, if you know what you are looking for. So when someone new to shooting makes a post about their weapon throwing brass at their head...I do not make the assumption that the weapon is automatically the culprit, and they know what they're doing. The odds are that it's not, and they don't. Simple demographics is more in favor of novice/casual shooters...and guess where they go to find out what's wrong with their gun...the Internet. It's human nature to want to think they are doing everything right, especially if they have been shooting for "years". It's one of those things where "you don't know...what you don't know". Shooting for years does not equal a competent shooter. I'm not saying that there are not legitimate issues with some weapons...There are, it happens with any weapon manufacturer.

It's a bigger issue in places like San Francisco. seriously, I sold my 1911's due to ftf/fte issues from bad hands & wrist splints not able to work the grip safety, possibly limpwristing also. no problems with 3 diff sigs.

It can be more of a problem with some of the new "super-light" 9mm's and .380's. Absent the mass of a substantial frame, your grip will need to provide the essential resistance to recoil to achieve the force to cycle the action. As said before, a semi-auto needs the slide to operate relative to the frame, for the gun to actually function. If the complete gun recoils in concert, as opposed to recoiling relative to the frame, the handgun will not operate as designed. Granted, it usually doesn't take much resistance to recoil, but it does require some resistance so the slide operates relative to the frame, or FTE and other maladies will result. All opinion aside, physics will demand a certain set of circumstances to achieve the desired result.

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Fight socialism. Never stop.

I've mostly seen Recoil Control Issues (aka: Limpwristing) with people unfamiliar with lightweight subcompacts like the Nano, DB9, my PF-9 and other 3" barreled pistols under 18oz., resulting in multiple FTEs. Once I've mentioned modifying their grip and locking the support hand, amazingly, the FTEs disappeared every single time.
Imagine that!

This hasn't been limited to new shooters, either. I've seen a few Career Military and cops that "never had a problem with their duty pistol" have initial problems with my PF-9, saying it was trash, until they modified their grip. Heavy Full-Size pistols sometimes hide lax technique.

"Fanboy Excuse" indeed.

I agree with what Doc say's, I have never had a gun fault due limp wrist. I have never seen it. If it does I would figure the gun has a problem

This was obviously written by an experienced and intelligent instructor. Well said OKFC05.

Limp wristing isn't an excuse for "fan boys" and it isn't a myth; it's real. However, it's not simple either. While I'm sure many have never had any trouble with their guns, you're only one person. I've seen it happen many times with many shooters. For me it most commonly has happened with Glock sub compacts. But, that doesn't mean other guns are immune.

The idea of limp wristing is really unintentional softening of the recoil. What is happening is the shooter is hitting a sweet spot where the gun is not in optimum performance. A gun might shoot fine with a good solid grip and with no resistance at all. Then get a person to lighten the resistance just a little and you get a malfunction.

Fist it must be diagnosed properly. This can only be done with at least two shooters. If the gun works fine with one shooter and malfunctions with another, the problem must be with that one shooter. I had a S&W 4506 and put thousands of rounds through it with no problems. I let a friend shoot it and he had at least 5 type II malfunctions within two magazines. That's not a gun problem.

Here's what I do. If I have a student that has multiple type II malfunctions, I'll take a few shots with their gun. If the gun does it for me as well, I'll say the gun is malfunctioning. If it doesn't malfunction for me, I'll work with the student's grip. So far, I've been able to solve every "limp wrist" problem by correcting grip. There have been a few guns that were truly malfunctioning as well.

It's real. It must be diagnosed properly. It can be fixed.

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Freedom isn't free.

I had never shot a pistol before I bought a 9 mm Pro about 2 years ago. I had stove pipe failures on every magazine in the first week of use until I finally figured out I wasn't gripping the pistol correctly and providing enough resistance for the recoil. I firmed up and changed my grip and haven't had a single failure since with over 3,000 rounds.

My wife had a few failures when she got her M&P and 1 minute of instruction solved the problem. She also hasn't had a failure since the first day.

I held my Shield as loose as possible and could not jam the weapon.

I owned a Kahr CM9 and Beretta Nano and gripped white knuckle tight with both hands using same ammo as Shield and both would jam regularly.

Based on my experience limp wrist is not a factor when it comes to jams.

Russ

You're confusing a Death Grip with Locking the Wrists.
Referring back to Rastoff's and my earlier replies, did everyone who shot your CM9 and/or Nano experience the same problems? I've helped Nano owners, who thought they'd bought a junk pistol get better results, by adjusting their technique.The Nano (7.5ft=lbs) and CM9 (8.3ft-lbs) both have harsher recoil than the Shield (7.0ft-lbs) and it can be readily felt. This MAY be why the Shield works so much better for you.

Could it simply have been your bad luck to get 2 lemons? Perhaps, but... Just because they jammed for you, it does not prove that they were bad pistols. It simply means they were the wrong pistols for you.

My PF-9 has 8.9ft-lbs of recoil, which is why so many people initially have so much recoil control (LW) issues with it, until they modify their technique. While I get 0 malfunctions with it, many who try it can't get through an entire mag until they modify their technique.

This is exactly why someone should not buy a pistol solely by how good they feel in the hand at the gun counter. People need to rent/borrow/shoot the type of pistol they're considering, before putting their money on the counter. You don't need to know ft-lbs of force to be able to feel how it shoots in your hands.

The PF-9 was my Flawless EDC until I found the Shield.
While I could manage the PF-9's recoil, it's a chore for me to shoot more than 30 rounds with it at a time. Same goes for the Nano, XD-S, PM9 and CM9.
I figure why should I NEED to 'deal' with the PF-9's recoil, when the Shield is so much nicer to shoot (I can shoot the Shield all day)?

The thing is, LW is not a myth... Especially when it comes to Small, Lightweight Subcompacts. There are numbers to back up the real world recoil control issues. And... It doesn't matter to how much of a Death Grip one puts on the pistol.

Grip stability/technique issues ("limp-wristing") isn't an unknown problem among firearms instructors and armorers.

I have a fair number of different armorer manuals out at my bench, from different manufacturers, and "grip" issues are a commonly listed probable cause of extraction/ejection & feeding stoppages.

Not supporting the frame (and thence the gun's functioning during unlocking/cycling/locking) can create problems.

So, too, however, can low (or over) powered ammunition, as well as defective, worn-out, damaged or over-powered recoil springs.

Then there's dry guns ... and even worse, dirty & dry guns.

Don't forget excessively lubricated guns, though, with their accumulating sludge, grit, fouling, etc.

Now, the fun really starts when you start to combine varying degrees of all these issues in any particular combination of gun, shooter & ammo.

"limp-wristing"? Sure, it can happen, but ...

While some folks can't seem to grip the gun properly enough to prevent it from happening, there's other folks who can't get it to happen no matter hard they try to make it happen.

Depends.

I've watched ordinary qual sessions, along with T&E of different pistols, where a particular pistol & case of ammo runs fine in the hands of one shooter, but exhibited obvious grip related stoppages in the hands of another shooter ... but that shooter only had that sort of grip stability issue occur with one make/model/caliber, not others.

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

Limp wrsting is usually caused from not properly holding the gun. It also happens more often with polymer frames. I recently took my daughter shooting for the first time and all the brass ejected at her head and she had a fte. I have never had a fte and when I shoot, and all the brass ejects out to the side as it should. So there has to be something to limp wristing

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Tommytom:)

I have instructed firearms for 40 years, citizens and LEO's and have seen this manifest itself many times with different pistol platforms.....after the safety lectures, grip is the first foundation skill that I teach.....and this most definitely includes locking the wrist to run the gun..... there are other variables as well....loads, lack of lube, etc.......one of my memorable incidents was with a husband/wife team (b-4 I starting separating them on the range).....they both were shooting the same Walther PPKS 380....the husband was experiencing FTF's every other round, the wife could run the little pistol like a machine gun......this was infuriating the husband who was condemning the gun "being a piece of ----". Then the wife would load it up and it would run faultlessly. I kept telling him that he was "breaking his wrists".....and he was getting hot, insisting that he was not.....then she would load it, sight & rip off a mag w/o a burp.
"breaking the wrists" and "anticipating the shot" ( flinching) have always been and will always be problems for those of us who teach other's to shoot. Both have to be approached carefully so as not to "threaten man card's", especially in front of their spouses or significant other's. Most women shooter's I have instructed were "blank slates" and listened to what I told them, and did it.

Not an excuse, not a fanboy issue. This link will show many different limp wrist tests with Glocks. You can search and find almost any brand tested with limp wristing (because brand does not matter at all).

Glock Limp Wristing

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M&P40c/15-22/SD9VE/Mossy500

My old Glock 19 Gen 3 made before Glock QC took a giant dump was limp wrist proof, so are my M&Ps... But maybe my guns are just defective...

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unrepentant M&P fanboy

Rob:

I was stating my opinion that I didn't believe limp wrist was a factor when I owned a Kahr and Beretta Nano. My friend also had failures shooting my weapons and I didn't change my technique when I purchased a Shield in fact I tried to intentionally cause a jam by gripping her like a 2 year old with no luck.

I believe with the Nano after following multiple posts the problem may be 115 grain ammo is too light and/or the design of the extractor.

With my experience with my Nano Federal Champion 115 grain failed 2% Winchester white box and S&B around 1% but 0 failures with 124 grain NATO. (Shot 1,300 total assorted rounds which I believe is a good sample. Nano was sent back for a feed ramp and chamber polish at about 600 round count but failure rates continued at the same rate after polish job.

These ammo results tells me limp wrist was not a factor otherwise the failure rates would have been consistent between brands If I had a limp wrist problem.

Russ :-)

This YouTube video is very well made and explains how some brands are more susceptible to limp wristing because of the weight of the frame. Thanks.

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Audemus jura nostra defendere

This is an older video but Tim at Military Arms Channel generally does a good job. That said, I'd love to know what ammo he used with the Glocks vs the other guns. Like I said, I can't buy a limp wrist with my M&Ps or old Glock 19 with decent ammo. These are also samples of 1. I stick by my previous assertion, "limp wristing" is an excuse for a faulty gun by fanboys of whatever platform it may be that is in question.

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unrepentant M&P fanboy

This is the key above..... "limp wristing" is a normal and common occurrence that tends to humiliate guys when mentioned.... Yall ever wonder why women tend to progress in the shooting sports at a faster rate than men? Its cause they listen, and we (mea culpa) don't.

I have yet to find ANY semi auto handgun that I cannot make jam with poor/bad technique... some are harder to get to jam than others (Glocks and M&Ps are tough, but can be thwarted). I believe that grip shape/angle plays a big part on your anatomy being able to support certain guns, and of course the micro pistols tend to be easier to get a jam out of than duty sized guns.

We have had quite a few instructors in the thread explain this phenomenon extremely well, and I thank them. This is simply a subject that gets a lot of folks butt hurt in a hurry..... It is not an insult, or slam, just a quick reminder to lock it up and provide the environment for the gun to work in.

Doc,
I believe you when you say you can't do it. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist and happen for other people. Loke many things in shooting, it is likely ammo and gun dependent.

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Freedom isn't free.

I have to agree with others that failure to provide proper resistance to the rearward movement of the slide can cause a malfunction. Be it called "limp wristing","improper grip" or something else, the potential for operator error is there. Like you, I feel that it may be a disproportionately used excuse for what is the gun design's fault or a bad choice of ammo.

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Audemus jura nostra defendere

This is TRUE! I have never experienced "limp wristing" or even seen it, until I took my ccl. There was a woman (NO, I'm not saying ANYTHING against women shooters) who's brand new glock kept jamming on her (with the class watching). The instructor would clear the jam & fire the gun several times WITHOUT any problems, hand the gun back to her, & it would jam on her after the 1st shot. This happened repeatedly time after time. Limp wristing is definitely real. I am NOT saying it only happens to glocks either, but a glock is the only gun I have seen it with

Agree, every semi needs SOME resistance but even one handed with a relatively lax grip is sufficient with decent ammo with a properly functioning gun (at least in my experience). Believe me, knowing my handguns will function with such lax grips allows me to sleep well at night. I'm sure some experience true limp wristing, but it's a WAY over used term.

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unrepentant M&P fanboy

I have never see weak or Limp wristing in 40+ years with all metal guns that were factory.. I have a couple Colt officers models in .45with factory dual recoil springs. Thinking I could get one to malfunction with a weak loose grip I gave it a try long ago. Nope even when shooting one handed.. I think as guns were made lighter with plastics this has been seen more and more.. Yes i have a M&P .22 and if I hold it as loose as I can it will flip in good shape but still functions. Now the same gun with a shot load and loose grip will produce a malfunction sometimes as does low powered rounds in this gun. Just never had a issue with this before.. If I was having this issue i would remove one coil from the recoil spring. I have met many that had this issue after installing aftermarket recoil springs from an aftermarket source other than the gun maker. After sizing the springs for the gun they still may need to be tuned.. Bla bla bla..George

Rob, I noticed you stated recoil torque for the Shield and Nano. Where can I find the recoil torque for a 9c? Curious as to how it compares to the Shield.
Thanks...Bruce

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9/40FS, 9c, 9 Shield, MP22

I know this is an extremely old thread. But this question is for you guys who are instructors and have spent decades teaching people to shoot. Do you ever see "limp wrist" issues with 22lr handguns? OR see them as much as you do with 9mm .380 or .40 handguns?

My wife (who never shoots) shot my Buckmark last month and the slide short cycled at least 5-6 times on a 10rd mag. Cup & Saucer. There was no instruction, she was shooting 10 shots and going back in the house likely not to shoot anything again for another year. But it made me wonder if it was dirty. I ran 2 mags through it, same ammo, functioned fine. Definitely possible on a 22.

Let my 9yr old twins shoot my 9mms this weekend. (single shots, single loaded, total supervision, me standing beside them and not loading, removing the safety, cocking until they were up on target and ready). The scrawnier of the two managed to FTE my Beretta 92 about 3 times and my P99 once. He weighs about 55lbs soaking wet though with arms like twigs.

I don't know how "common" it is, but it certainly CAN be an issue. And if it is, it's not related to the gun.

My wife decided to start shooting with me after 40 years of marriage, when she was in her 60's. She did OK with a revolver, but a semi pistol jammed every time. After I explained in detail how to firmly hold the pistol it worked 100% every time.

My Dad was an accomplished pistolero. The last time I took him shooting (at an advanced age with health problems, just before he passed) every time he tried to shoot a semi it jammed. When I tried to fire the same gun it was OK.

I think "limp wristing" would be more common in San Francisco

Not an issue with a S&W model 29, just ask Harry.

Seriously though not all humans are built the same and ergonomics can be a real factor for some people.

Having taught firearms in 30 police academy's I have encountered many people who probably had trouble getting toothpaste out of the tube. If they did manage to pull the trigger on a double action revolver they did good to get on paper. I started addressing students during orientation encouraging them to start training with a grip master or squeezing a ball and doing a lot of dry firing if they had their own weapon. After getting students to get in 6 to 8 weeks strength training, I saw much improved results on the range. I am believer that hand and upper body strength training for handgun shooting as important as training for any other sport.

I have never personally seen it with a .22LR handgun. That doesn't mean it can't happen.

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Freedom isn't free.

Never seen it in over 40 years shooting 1911's.

I suppose it's possible, but not with a shooter who knows how to shoot.

Not Harry, but Rick Grimes for certain.

Only exists on the internet.

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-jwk-
US Army '72-'95

I just saw that I never answered where I found the recoil factor (ft/lbs) info in my earlier post.
For anyone still interested, it can be found at The Handgun Information Resource
It's a great site for comparing handguns before actually getting to try shooting one.

Genitrton also has some great pages showing how pistols work ( Handgun Basics-Education-Training )

I have seen 1911s have type II malfunctions. Was it due to the "limp wrist" phenomena? I have no idea.

That's kinda the point. Everyone has to start somewhere. It will always be most prevalent in new shooters.

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Freedom isn't free.

I have a lot to learn, but I've had more issues with applying to much pressure to on the mag base causing it to cant and not feed. Mainly in two Taurus pistols.

That said, I think recoil management is key to get the second shot on target. When the **** really hits, they aren't all going to hit home. Revolvers still have a place...