I'm new to shooting handguns. I'm a woman with small hands and shoot an M&P 9 pro full size and a CZ 75BD.

I'm having trouble with my groups going low or low and left. It seems to be a little better with the CZ. I've looked it up on the diagram and it says I'm breaking my wrist down, pushing forward or drooping head and or jerking or slapping the trigger to make it go down and left.

How do i correct this when I practice?

I've tried to attach photos of my groups but could only get one to show up. The links to the photos are at the bottom of my post. These are both shot from the 15 ft. line at the range.

Any advice is greatly appreciated.


https://www.flickr.com/photos/larkspur20/15680628594/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/larkspur20/16301249631/

The real trick is to stop anticipating the shot. What I've done is to focus highly on just getting a smooth pull on the trigger - no jerking it and then mentally focusing on not flinching. I know that is not something easy to do but it is the flinch that is going to lead to all sorts of issues. Dry firing can help some but I've noticed that getting to a point of recognizing when you are anticipating the shot is a major step. I still flinch some occasionally but when I do I can actually see it and feel it. Others may have some better advice but that is the thing that has helped me immensely. One of the other things that has helped me was watching a Rob Pincus video which showed how to bend slightly at the knees and lean forward slightly (not a huge amount but slightly) and then extending your arms fully and with a good stacked thumb grip it helps with stabilization and puts you into a natural stance which will likely occur when you are in a high stress situation. I found by doing it that way I can hit follow up shots quite well and quickly. Just some things that have worked for me.

__________________
G21C,Shield.40,LCP

HI Larkpur. WELCOME TO THE SHOOTING SPORT, AND WELCOME TO OUR FORUM. ITS SO NICE TO HAVE A WOMAN AMONG US. I WOULD HAVE TO SAY THAT YOU ARE ANTICIPATING THE SHOT--MORE PRECISELY THE RECOIL. RECOIL IS NOT EASY TO GET USED TO, OR TO IGNORE---ESP FOR A WOMAN WITH SMALL HANDS. IT WOULD BE EASIER TO TRAIN YOU, IF YOU WERE SHOOTING A REVOLVER. STANDING BEHIND YOU IN THE PORT, I WOULD LOAD JUST A FEW OF THE CHAMBERS OF THE WEAPON RANDOMLY, AND PLACE IT ON THE BENCH IN FRONT OF YOU. WHEN YOU PULLED THE TRIGGER ON AN EMPTY CHAMBER, YOU WOULD SEE---VERY PAINFULLY--EXACTLY WHAT YOU ARE DOING WRONG. UNFORTUNATELY, YOU CANNOT REPLICATE THIS EXERCISE WITH A SEMI-AUTO. WHAT YOU MUST DO IS DEVELOP A SMOOTH STRAIGHT TRIGGER PULL, WHILE TRYING TO BE UNFOCUSED ON WHEN THE SHOT WILL GO OFF. ONE THING YOU CAN DO IS TO ***MAKE SURE THE WEAPON IS UNLOADED***. AIM AT A SPOT ON THE WALL. COCK THE HAMMER. PLACE A COIN ON THE TOP OF THE WEAPON, WHEREVER IT WILL BALANCE. THEN TRY TO PULL THE TRIGGER WITHOUT KNOCKING THE COIN OFF. ALSO, LOOK AT YOUTUBE. THERE IS A WEALTH OF INFO REGARDING HANDGUN SHOOTING, AND YOU MAY BE ABLE TO PICK UP SOME TIPS REGARDING THE BASICS OF STANCE, GRIP, BREATH CONTROL, SIGHT PICTURE, TRIGGER CONTROL, ETC. YOU ARE DOING QUITE WELL FOR A NOVICE, IN THAT YOU ARE ACTUALLY SHOOTING A GROUP, RATHER THAN A SHOTGUN PATTERN ! ! ! DON'T GET FRUSTRATED. TRY TO RELAX, BEHIND THE GUN. IF YOUR HANDS BEGIN TO HURT, YOU HAVE HAD ENOUGH FOR ONE DAY. GET YOURSELF A PAIR OF PADDED SHOOTING GLOVES. TRY PUTTING A PAIR OF EARPLUGS IN UNDER YOUR MUFFS. ANYTHING THAT CAN DEADEN THE SENSORY STIMULATION OF THE SHOT GOING OFF WILL HELP YOU. GOOD LUCK…….

__________________
'Nam 1968-69.DAV,VFW,NRA Inst.

Except for those few shots it looks like you chewed the center out of the targets pretty dang good. The long double action trigger on my 3rd gen pistol causes me to get off bit when I'm anticipating the shot and get that little bit of final squeeze. Your technique must be pretty good and maybe losing concentration at the last second on a few shots. I went shooting yesterday and did well especially when using mild target ammo. When I got to the hot stuff, I started getting some pulled shots, mostly to the right. I don't like shooting indoors. I never had anticipation or a flinch until I got into that closed in space. Outside I'm like a Zen master and the end of the trigger pull is just like the beginning.

BTW I presume the 15 refers to feet. If you are doing that at 15 yards I will be of no help to you.

And WELCOME TO THE CLUB

__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Thanks! I will try that!

Shooting low left with a right handed shooter is almost always jerking the trigger in anticipation of recoil. Good hearing protection, dry fire, and concentrating on you sights while you slowly squeeze the trigger (letting it surprise you when it goes off) will all help. Loading an occasional "dummy" round into the magazine will show you how much you are jerking the sights, as recoil tends to hide poor trigger technique.

Larry

I love the coin idea I will try that tonight.
Could I replicate the revolver practice if I had snap caps randomly in the magazine?
Youtube has been my best teacher so far.

Thanks for the input and great ideas!

yes fifteen feet. When I get tired I start pulling the trigger just to get it over with. Then i am way off. I am using Monarch ammo I bought at Academy Sports. I dont know if its training ammo or not, just that it was cheap.

Thanks for your help!

I think I am guilty of all of those things listed. This is a great chart you posted. I have never seen one with the explanation included. I found it very helpful. Thank you!

I will have to get some dummy rounds and wear ear plugs too.
Thanks for your help!

Anne

Don't forget, you can always adjust the sights. May be your not doing anything wrong. Not every person on the planet shoots to the factory set sights. The rear sight can be drifted for windage.
Elevation can require a different aiming point, a lower or higher front sight or different ammo. Lighter bullets at higher velocity will hit the target LOWER.
Heavier bullets at lower velocity will hit Higher on the target.
If changing your shooting technique doesn't solve all the problem don't be afraid to move the sights. You can always move them back.
Good luck, don't get discouraged, handguns are not easy to master.
Gary

Thank you.

ms. Larkpur , The best advise I can give you is to buy yourself a nice .22 LR pistol and practice with it until you get the groups where you want them. I have trained many folks to shoot and I find most people find their own way, and a .22 is the absolute best tool for the job! Ruger make some Doosies the SR-22 , the Mark 1,2, or 3 are all great. S&W makes some good ones too , but are more expensive, shop around and see which one suits you best. Good luck and welcome aboard. Jack

I myself am a big fan of leaving empty charge holes in a revolver or randomly mixing snap caps into magazines. You will see yourself moving the pistol around in ways you never realized.

Work on pressing the trigger back without disturbing your front sight.

Chubbs

Thank you Jack! There is a Walther P22 in the family that I have practiced with before I bought my 9 mms. Perhaps I'll practice some more with it.

Do you have someone to join you at the range? If so have that person load your mags (they can mix up the dummies with live rounds so you don't know when the snap cap is feeding) and possibly load your pistol as well.

Again without you knowing you'll very quickly see if your jerking the trigger/anticipating the shot.

That worked well for my sons and later on my daughter-in-law.

Congrats on a great pistol and welcome to some of the most fun you can have.

There's not much I can add to what has already been said. If you are shooting indoors, or at a busy outdoor range; try using ear plugs in addition to shooting muffs. I belong to an indoor range and started doing this. On busy days, it gets LOUD!

Dry fire practice does and will help. I find sometimes, I get too tense and when I pull a shot, I get frustrated with myself. I take a few breaths and relax a little and let myself get back on target without putting so much pressure on myself. I'm a Virgo, we are perfectionists; it's hard to just let go and have fun sometimes.

You are doing very well, your groups don't look that low to me and everyone has a flyer now and then :-) Maybe try some different ammo; if you're using 115 gr. ammo, try some 124/125 or 147 gr. and see what happens. You're really doing quite well, keep up the good work; and make sure to have some fun, too!

I have some very good muffs but indoors I think I'll get earplugs for me and my family in addition to the muff. A lot of people here do that. Outside I don't need them, even with the really big stuff going off.

__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Thanks! I can get someone to go to the range and load dummy rounds. Looking forward to trying all these suggestions.

Thank you. I will try that also. I'm having fun but taking it seriously too. I like competing with myself so target practice is perfect for me!

Larkpur,

I think you will find this video helpful? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChSazF41q-s

__________________
Regards,
mmesa005

Larkpur,
When looking at your target photos I clicked forward and saw the other photos. All very beautiful! Then I had an idea. Try to apply the same thought process to your trigger pull that you use for your shutter pull. If you do that you may be less likely to anticipate the shot.
Let the hammer drop happen as you concentrate on your front sight.
All of everyones advise is sound. Your targets look very good.
Best of luck and I hope the association helps.
Jim

Anne: I also looked at your other photos. IMHO, you are one heck of a photographer! One of my best novice shooters is a professional lady photographer. She quickly applied the disciplines required for picture taking to shooting her handgun and was the best shot in her class at the end of four days. I told her that she had the talent to go as far as she wanted in pistol competition.

IMHO, buy a .22 LR handgun as close to the same configuration of your nine mms as possible. Do about half of your range shooting with the 22. Practice perfectly. The minimal report and recoil of the 22 will allow you to see your mistakes much easier than the big bore guns. Quit when you are tired and starting to ease up in concentration.

Lean forward to put about 60% of your weight on the balls of your feet. Turn your feet inward in a pigeon toed manner. "C" your upper body forward slightly. Tighten up your strong arm to "push". Tighten up your support arm to "pull". Tighten up your chest from arm to arm. Push the handgun into your hand and wrap your support hand around the gripping hand. Don't let your trigger finger touch anything but the trigger. Press the trigger slowly, but steadily until the handgun fires. Do not anticipate. Keep both eyes open......permissible to squint the off eye. Bring the handgun up to your eye level. Don't drop your head down to the sight level. Dry fire, dry fire, dry fire. Don't drink any caffeine drink before shooting. Don't look at the results of each and every shot. Focus like you have never focused before on the front sight. Use the same sight picture each and every shot. Rest your arms frequently by coming down into the "rest" position without breaking your grip. Breath deeply while shooting. Have really good hearing protection. Practice frequently.

Find a good Instructor locally that can watch you shoot and prevent you from developing bad habits. ............ Good Luck. ........ Big Cholla

I've found the thumb forward grip that Jerry Miculek uses in the above video really helps to prevent the low left shots. I had to retrain myself to change my grip when I purchased my M&P because I shot DA revolvers for 30+ years with my thumbs locked down on each other. That hold seemed to make the problem worse.

Anne,
Welcome aboard. Glad to have another woman here. Pretty much everyone jerks the trigger. Even Rob Leatham (USPSA champ) talks about jerking the trigger in one of his videos. It is something I have battled with for too long. As I have gotten older I understand the reasons more.
For me, it's a two pronged issue. First I have a tendency to have a death grip on the gun. Jerry Miculek also has had this issue. In one of his long distance vids, he was shooting low. He took a moment and relaxed his grip and his shots were back to were they were supposed to be. The second part for me is anticipating the shot. Watching a lot of the guys I shoot with (I am talking about A and B shooters and some Masters), if they have an issue with their gun, you will see them jerk the gun down when they pull the trigger and it doesn't go boom. I have been trying to concentrate on gently squeezing the trigger. Almost to the point that you are surprised when the gun actually goes off. I have noticed when I do that my hits are better. Good luck.

Don't get discouraged when your next trip to the range everything is not perfect. I say this from personal experience. Same issue as you, low left, get all kinds of advice and ideas from others and YouTube and expect everything to miraculously clear up next trip to the range. It takes time and practice. I am slowly getting better but still not where I want to be. Your groups will stop a bad guy! celebrate the improvements and look forward to the next rang day to keep working on perfection.

My wife was having trouble shooting low left, I could see her pulling the pistol just before the trigger broke, but nothing seemed to correct her doing this (laser pointer during dry fire, snap caps mixed in with live ammo, case balanced on front sight) This was getting her very frustrated as she wanted to hit what she was aiming at (novel concept, no?) One day I was watching her working real hard at lining her sights up and a thought came to me. I told her not to concentrate on a perfect sight picture, as soon as the target got close to sight alignment, pull the trigger. Then I would act as a timer, if she took more than a second aligning sights I would say "Down", meaning she should lower the pistol to low ready and start again. After a few minutes of this, her accuracy increased tremendously. I suspect her arm was getting tired, starting to shake, and when it came time to pull the trigger, she was pulling the whole pistol down. The weight of a pistol at arms length is heavier than one would think. I never thought of it because I break my shots immediately after I acquire a sight picture. Give this a shot, it worked for her. And Good Luck.

__________________
Minimize the variables

WOW! I have a lot to learn!

Thanks Jim! I can't wait to get back to the range and try again.

Thanks so much for your help and kind words about my photos.
I'm going to print all these replies out on paper and study before I dry fire or go to the range.
Thanks again!
Anne

Thanks for the advice!

Thanks for the advice I will try that too. I noticed that I shot much better when I shot left handed even though I am strongly right handed and right eye dominant. Perhaps I was focusing on just holding the gun and pulling the trigger I didn't anticipate the shot.
I have a lot to learn and am having fun with it.

Thank you! Practice makes perfect, i just want to practice perfect and not learn any bad habits from the beginning.

I have been holding up a ten pound weight for as long as i can stand in my shooting position and noticed a big improvement at the range after that but still tire while aiming. I think your suggestion will help me a lot.
Thank you!

Groo here
One more thing.
Grip your gun as tight as you can- till it shakes- then lighten up
till it stops.
This is your grip.
The two things that will throw you off most are the trigger,
and the grip [ or the change in the grip]
Even the sights do not need to be super still [ at least not now]
You are releasing your grip before the shot[ Shooting for 50 years and I still do it]
Shooting is a Sport, requiring some exercise [ not something we do all the time]
Girls have it harder because of the lesser upper body strength to men.
But make up for it with better trigger control and concentration to men.
We swing hammers, you use needle and thread.

Thanks Groo. I'll try that.

As far as I'm concerned your shooting fine. IN SD two rounds center mass is good. Your close enough to protect yourself. Rest is practice practice. Snap caps are dry fire are your friend.

Anne;
Another hearty welcome to the forum ! All the advice above is the sort I would offer, so I won't repeat, except to second the comparison to a camera shutter. If you jerk the shutter button, you blur the shot. Increase the pressure gradually, so that the shot is a surprise.
Good shooting !

another Larry

I've ordered snap caps from Amazon and they are on the way!

Thanks Larry. Ill try that too.

Find a local coach who can watch you shoot.

I love Monarch ammo. Its made by PPU in Serbia & good quality stuff.... I use it in both my M&P shield 9 & M&P 380, hundreds of rounds & not one failure...

Welcome to the forum. Lots of great advice on this forum. Be careful and just enjoy. Take care.

Thanks Harkrader, CaptRon and Bud!