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I recently put an RMR 06 on my 9L CORE. They are not cowitnessing. The dot is high left to the iron sights. When I sight in to the dot the iron sights do not line up. Do I need to try remounting?
Co-witness problem with RMR on 9L CORE
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Cfuzzkennedy
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Nope. If you hit the target with the red dot, that one is good. If then you use the iron sights and also hit your intended target, that is good too.
The red dot is a bit weird in how it works, but works it does.
I take cowittnesing as being able to use both sights independently. Some red dot are taller and will not let you use the iron sights at all.
The red dot is a bit weird in how it works, but works it does.
I take cowittnesing as being able to use both sights independently. Some red dot are taller and will not let you use the iron sights at all.
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Red Dot Zero and Co-Witness
Note: Most of my knowledge comes from this site: GABE SUAREZ BLOG Also they have supplied sights, slide milling and even a complete pistol for me. What I have written is my interpretation from trying what Gabe Suarez has written. The Red Dot Sight (RDS) photos are from Gabe's blog. I have three pistols with milled RDS.
1. Turn off the RMR
2. With your arms rested to steady the gun, use only the iron sights and get them aligned with the Point of Impact (PoI). I do this at 20 yards. Drift the rear sight for windage. Check where the PoI is relative to the front sight blade height. Sometimes it is right behind your front sight dot. Ideally, it should be just above your front sight blade. If your elevation is way off, you may have to replace your front sight blade with a different height (Dawson Precision Sights). I use Heinie Straight 8 sights, or similar ones that are taller from Suarez International. Photo from the Heine website.
3. Turn on your RMR and with the elevation and windage adjustment dials, bring the red dot to the PoI relative to the front sight, either superimposed on the front sight dot or ideally just above it. You don't have to shoot to do this.
4. Fire to confirm (rested) that when you have the irons aligned and the red dot right on the PoI, that's what happens. When this works, your sights are cowitnessed AND concurrently aligned. When aiming slowly and carefully, both sighting systems together will put the bullets where the two sighting systems are pointing. However, you can use either irons or the RMR independently and get the same results.
5. Now, with the RMR off, practice dozens and dozens (hundreds) of dry presentations toward a target at home. You want to have your grip correct and consistent. You train your muscles to coordinate with your eyes that are focusing on the target first, then switching to the iron sight alignment. Make small adjustments until the irons are consistently aligned and on target. When you can do this proficiently, move the gun and sights, without losing alignment, to two or three other targets at different heights and distances. When you are good at this,
6. Turn on the RMR and do the same exercises, checking your iron sight alignment. The red dot will appear where the front sight points. You will find the dot in the window every time, as long as your irons are close to aligned. With your initial focus on the target as you present the gun, you will see the red dot imposed on the target. You can now ignore the iron sights if your presentation is consistent.
7. The red dot is an indicator of where the bullet will hit. If you can see the red dot in the window, even if it is in the upper left, place the dot on the target (ignoring your irons, using the sighting systems independently) without losing focus on the target and that's where the bullet will hit. This is much faster than switching focus between target, front sight/rear sight alignment and back to the target. It is also gives you a much greater margin for sighting error. Focusing only on the target is natural, as that is what your brain will do in a self defense situation. As long as the dot in the window is on your PoI, you will hit it.
Conversely, struggling to align iron sights precisely with a post in a notch applied to the target's PoI is much slower, difficult, and provides only a narrow sighting avenue to the target.
Actually, your iron sight alignment, when properly co-witnessed, will always point to where the dot is in the window. Check it out at home with dry fire practice. For instance, if the red dot is in the upper left of the window and on your intended PoI, your front iron sight will be above the rear iron notch and skewed to the left--in truth, pointing to where the bullets will hit. Magic.
If your iron sights and red dot do not shoot to the same PoI or cannot be concurrently aligned, you do not have co-witnessed sights and you are wasting expensive technology. NOT co-witnessed:
Your irons should protrude into your RDS window 20-25% to be useful. Less than that and they are too hard to align; more, they will block too much of the RDS window.
COREs, MOS and other generic slide cuts require an RDS-specific mounting plate for different RD sights. The plate is secure in the milled cut being tightly fitted front and back as well as screwed in place. However, the elevated sight sits on top of the thin plate, with only two short mounting screws holding it on to the plate. The sight has only the two shallow screws to stabilize it as it reciprocates at high velocity. Because the sight is mounted higher than necessary, you will need especially tall iron sights to co-witness properly.
Note below how a custom milled slide for a specific RDS allows the sight to sit lower and attaches the sight directly to the slide. The screws are position holders only, as the fore and aft cycling is stabilized by the tight front and rear slide cuts. This is significantly more secure and keeps both the RDS and the irons closer to the bore. The irons do not have to be super tall.
There are a couple of right ways (depending on your needs--target or defense) and lots of wrong ways to mount and use these rather expensive upgrades. Done correctly, you will have a wonderful shooting experience. Done wrong and you may end up frustrated, spending more money to get it right, or giving up on what is truly the next evolution of fast and accurate sighting.
Note: Most of my knowledge comes from this site: GABE SUAREZ BLOG Also they have supplied sights, slide milling and even a complete pistol for me. What I have written is my interpretation from trying what Gabe Suarez has written. The Red Dot Sight (RDS) photos are from Gabe's blog. I have three pistols with milled RDS.
1. Turn off the RMR
2. With your arms rested to steady the gun, use only the iron sights and get them aligned with the Point of Impact (PoI). I do this at 20 yards. Drift the rear sight for windage. Check where the PoI is relative to the front sight blade height. Sometimes it is right behind your front sight dot. Ideally, it should be just above your front sight blade. If your elevation is way off, you may have to replace your front sight blade with a different height (Dawson Precision Sights). I use Heinie Straight 8 sights, or similar ones that are taller from Suarez International. Photo from the Heine website.
3. Turn on your RMR and with the elevation and windage adjustment dials, bring the red dot to the PoI relative to the front sight, either superimposed on the front sight dot or ideally just above it. You don't have to shoot to do this.
4. Fire to confirm (rested) that when you have the irons aligned and the red dot right on the PoI, that's what happens. When this works, your sights are cowitnessed AND concurrently aligned. When aiming slowly and carefully, both sighting systems together will put the bullets where the two sighting systems are pointing. However, you can use either irons or the RMR independently and get the same results.
5. Now, with the RMR off, practice dozens and dozens (hundreds) of dry presentations toward a target at home. You want to have your grip correct and consistent. You train your muscles to coordinate with your eyes that are focusing on the target first, then switching to the iron sight alignment. Make small adjustments until the irons are consistently aligned and on target. When you can do this proficiently, move the gun and sights, without losing alignment, to two or three other targets at different heights and distances. When you are good at this,
6. Turn on the RMR and do the same exercises, checking your iron sight alignment. The red dot will appear where the front sight points. You will find the dot in the window every time, as long as your irons are close to aligned. With your initial focus on the target as you present the gun, you will see the red dot imposed on the target. You can now ignore the iron sights if your presentation is consistent.
7. The red dot is an indicator of where the bullet will hit. If you can see the red dot in the window, even if it is in the upper left, place the dot on the target (ignoring your irons, using the sighting systems independently) without losing focus on the target and that's where the bullet will hit. This is much faster than switching focus between target, front sight/rear sight alignment and back to the target. It is also gives you a much greater margin for sighting error. Focusing only on the target is natural, as that is what your brain will do in a self defense situation. As long as the dot in the window is on your PoI, you will hit it.
Conversely, struggling to align iron sights precisely with a post in a notch applied to the target's PoI is much slower, difficult, and provides only a narrow sighting avenue to the target.
Actually, your iron sight alignment, when properly co-witnessed, will always point to where the dot is in the window. Check it out at home with dry fire practice. For instance, if the red dot is in the upper left of the window and on your intended PoI, your front iron sight will be above the rear iron notch and skewed to the left--in truth, pointing to where the bullets will hit. Magic.
If your iron sights and red dot do not shoot to the same PoI or cannot be concurrently aligned, you do not have co-witnessed sights and you are wasting expensive technology. NOT co-witnessed:
Your irons should protrude into your RDS window 20-25% to be useful. Less than that and they are too hard to align; more, they will block too much of the RDS window.
COREs, MOS and other generic slide cuts require an RDS-specific mounting plate for different RD sights. The plate is secure in the milled cut being tightly fitted front and back as well as screwed in place. However, the elevated sight sits on top of the thin plate, with only two short mounting screws holding it on to the plate. The sight has only the two shallow screws to stabilize it as it reciprocates at high velocity. Because the sight is mounted higher than necessary, you will need especially tall iron sights to co-witness properly.
Note below how a custom milled slide for a specific RDS allows the sight to sit lower and attaches the sight directly to the slide. The screws are position holders only, as the fore and aft cycling is stabilized by the tight front and rear slide cuts. This is significantly more secure and keeps both the RDS and the irons closer to the bore. The irons do not have to be super tall.
There are a couple of right ways (depending on your needs--target or defense) and lots of wrong ways to mount and use these rather expensive upgrades. Done correctly, you will have a wonderful shooting experience. Done wrong and you may end up frustrated, spending more money to get it right, or giving up on what is truly the next evolution of fast and accurate sighting.
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Co-Witness
To clear up any confusion, the prefix "co-" means:
Jointly; together; with.
When used in front of the word "witness", referring to iron sights and an electronic red dot on a rifle or pistol, it means two (or even three) separate sighting systems will put a bullet at the same point on a target that each of the systems points to.
It is not possible to have two or more separate sighting systems that point differently yet put bullets in the same hole as the other sight(s). A barrel points in only one specific direction. Each sighting system is pointed to that bullet hole on the target at the same distance. So, all sighting systems are co-witnessed, i. e., they point to the same bullet hole at the same distance.
Because of this concurrent sighting ability, sighting systems can be used aligned together or independent of each other and get the same result.
In the case of a red dot sight used with iron sights co-witnessing through the red dot window, perfect alignment of the iron sights on the target hole of necessity requires that the adjustment dials of the red dot sight be adjusted so the red dot also covers the point of impact of the bullet. Thus whenever both sighting systems are in place on a pistol and the iron sights are perfectly aligned, the red dot HAS to be aligned with the iron sights to hit the same POI.
Once the sighting systems are co-witnessed to the same PoI, they can be used INDEPENDENTLY, but they are still co-witnessed, just not necessarily used CONCURRENTLY.
Because the RDS has a big window allowing for less precise alignment of the sighting system, one should typically ignore the iron sights and only use the RDS system because it is faster and easier. But if one brings the dot to the lower center of the window, if you notice, the iron sights will be (concurrently) aligned right under the dot.
While each co-witnessed sighting system CAN be used independently, none is independently sighted differently from the other. Can't happen. They all point to the same bullet hole.
To clear up any confusion, the prefix "co-" means:
Jointly; together; with.
When used in front of the word "witness", referring to iron sights and an electronic red dot on a rifle or pistol, it means two (or even three) separate sighting systems will put a bullet at the same point on a target that each of the systems points to.
It is not possible to have two or more separate sighting systems that point differently yet put bullets in the same hole as the other sight(s). A barrel points in only one specific direction. Each sighting system is pointed to that bullet hole on the target at the same distance. So, all sighting systems are co-witnessed, i. e., they point to the same bullet hole at the same distance.
Because of this concurrent sighting ability, sighting systems can be used aligned together or independent of each other and get the same result.
In the case of a red dot sight used with iron sights co-witnessing through the red dot window, perfect alignment of the iron sights on the target hole of necessity requires that the adjustment dials of the red dot sight be adjusted so the red dot also covers the point of impact of the bullet. Thus whenever both sighting systems are in place on a pistol and the iron sights are perfectly aligned, the red dot HAS to be aligned with the iron sights to hit the same POI.
Once the sighting systems are co-witnessed to the same PoI, they can be used INDEPENDENTLY, but they are still co-witnessed, just not necessarily used CONCURRENTLY.
Because the RDS has a big window allowing for less precise alignment of the sighting system, one should typically ignore the iron sights and only use the RDS system because it is faster and easier. But if one brings the dot to the lower center of the window, if you notice, the iron sights will be (concurrently) aligned right under the dot.
While each co-witnessed sighting system CAN be used independently, none is independently sighted differently from the other. Can't happen. They all point to the same bullet hole.
Was any of the above helpful, Timgungoll?
From your description, the mounting is not the problem. Adjusting the sights to a co-witness zero should solve your problem.
