I have Winchester Ranger T ammo for my S&W Shield 45 and for the Sig P320 pistols. In some preliminary tests I was having issues with the Winchester Ranger T 230gr upsetting properly when shot out of the Shield's short 3" barrel. I was getting partial opening up but usually left 2 of the talons folded inside the tip of the bullet that did not "unfold".

According to one of the engineers that designed the talon bullet, as the tooling which stamps the jacket notches dulls with use, the notches become too shallow and robust expansion is inhibited. With proper jacket notching, the RA45T loads with velocities in the low 800-825 FPS range expand reliably with proper notches. However, even load with velocities in the 850 to 875 range fail to expand that have the shallow notches. Higher velocity of the +P RA45T at 900 to 925 will always expand reliably regardless of the notches being shallow or not.

On new ammo I received, regular RA45T, and with a new lot number, I still experienced this lack of complete expansion that I had sent to Olin just a few weeks ago. Then the remark of the notches struck and idea. So I went to the shop with one bullet of this new batch, and used my Dremel and the thin cutoff wheel, and cut indentations in the areas that the notches should be. Easy to tell as there are slight valleys in the very tip where the Talons are. I went down the sides of every one of the 6 Talons and left a scoring in the brass. The result was remarkable.

Below is a comparison between my previous shot Ranger T that only partially expanded and the bullet I modified with the scoring. Both bullets were shot out of my S&W Shield 45.

I have some Ranger T in +P coming in Monday and anxious to see how it performs. I just thought I would share what my findings were with you here on the forums for your information.

Picture of the top of the bullet with the showing of 2 Talons failing to fold over on the regular bullet and my modified on the right.


Now the bottoms of the bullets for comparison


On a recent phone conversation with Winchester Technical Specialist, I was told that Olin-Winchester has designed a 8 Talon bullet to replace the 6 Talon Ranger T series. I have not found any source yet to test this new design.

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Vern

This is interesting to me, since I just bought a box of 50 of those same Ranger rounds for my new Shield. (Standard pressure.) Did they expand as designed when shot out of the SIG?

No, let me show you bullets shot from the SIG P320....



And also this one that barely had any deformity at all. Mostly a FMJ.

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Vern

Thank you. Disappointing.

In case you haven't seen it, Luckgunner did a rather extensive ammo test using short barreled handguns. The 9MM was an M&P Compact so not quite the same as the Shield.

The link below takes you directly to the 9mm section.

http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self...tic-tests/#9mm

Disappointing... very!
Some websites won't sell to me because, even though I was a Deputy in Nebraska for many years and can fax proof with certificates and LE graduation info, I cannot find my ID card with a picture on it that they need. Which means it is technically designed for Law Enforcement.

I hope they don't have short barrel issue guns (or backups/off duty carry) and use only the standard pressure RA45T.

According to the folks at Winchester, the RA45T and RA45TP (+P) use the same bullet. The RA45TP is only slightly +P only running 2000 PSI higher pressure than the standard RA45T, which translates into faster muzzle velocity and only marginally greater perceived recoil; this slight increase in velocity helps bullets with shallow jacket notching expand more reliably. The +P is reportedly more reliable out of some of the 1911 45s that are running with 18.5 lbs recoil springs. Even better reliability on firearms that are dirty.

Unless I notch my bullets for carry, which I plan to do this Sunday, then the standard are good target loads, and Monday my 2 boxes of RA45TP will arrive and I will test them WITHOUT the scoring on the sides.

If anyone wishes I can take a picture of what the bullets look like after I score them down the sides.

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Vern

Can you describe your testing protocol and media?

Is there any fabric in front of the media?

What kind of ballistic gel are you using and how was it mixed?

Thank you Saudade! I have that same link already opened as a tab on my browser.
Those are fascinating groups of bullets and facts. However, their results may not have been the same had they used the RA45T (standard pressure) that I have. Since tooling that creates the Talon notching is prone to wear, and there are many batch numbers, it is probably safe to say that their Winchester ammo was of a different lot number and had a fairly good tooling in manufacturing.

I have 9mm Winchester Talon RA9T that is standard pressure and they mushroomed out as expected and very nice. I have an older box (Yellow with big STAR on box) that they too, expand beautiful out of my Shield or Sig P320. That is what is loaded in my P320 .45 at the moment. I have the Sig V-Crown in the Shield 45 at the moment as they did expand for me fairly well.

Hyena, your lot number is stamped on the inside flap of the box, with letter and number code. The only way to tell if your lot is better is to actually test it first. I don't think consumers should have to test their ammunition BEFORE they believe in it, but I happen to be an experimenter of sorts and curious. Otherwise, I would, like so many shooters, just rely on data seen on Lucky Gunner and other places and not know "The Rest of the Story"

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Vern

My testing protocol is a simple one. I am just testing expansion using regular water in 1 gallon jugs (like milk jugs), all lined up in a row. I am not testing penetration depth, nor fabric issues.

I use no fabric in front of the water jugs, just the water itself. In other words, the water will give it the "best" opportunity to allow the bullet to expand without any detraction of plugging the end of the bullet with cloth. Plugging the end can cause lack of hydraulic expansion, which is the whole purpose of the hollow point to begin with.

It is the hydraulic action of the fluid, any fluid, whether blood, gelatin, water that causes the deformity of the bullet providing that the copper is able to rip apart from the hydraulic pressure applied. If the scoring is not sufficient and the copper is too thick, there will be no or uneven disruption of the bullet. The ones that only partially expanded and left 2 talons still in position were a guarantee that the bullet tumbled a lot after only one side opened up. That part can be good. Little disruption of the bullet tip makes the equivalent of a FMJ.

My RA9T, and Sig 114gr 9mm and 124gr V-Crown always have great expansions. Built right with the right amount of scoring (sometimes not really visible) to allow the bullet to mushroom evenly.

One other mention is that you may experience core and jacket separation using RA45TP from what I have read.

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Vern

Posting picture of RA45T (newer style) left is new, out of box, next to it on the right is the same, but scored and lightly buffed. Further to the right is the Older Ranger T .45 from the yellow, or gold box, shot from a S&W Shield .45 into water jugs. There was core separation, something you may experience with +p rounds. And below that is the Winchester Ranger T RA9T shot from my SIG P320 into water jugs.




Next picture is the 9mm Winchester -T RA9T, same bullet, shot into water jugs, but this time more close and a side view. Seems to do nicely. 147 gr.

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Vern

The failed bullets still would have left a .45 caliber hole in flesh and would probably completely penetrate a human torso, causing pneumothorax and allowing the critter to bleed out quicker. The partially expanded bullets are not a failure and would probably cause extensive damage in flesh because, as the OP mentioned, they would probably tumble.

Before I'd waste my time altering factory loaded bullets I'd buy a few boxes of other loads and see what kind of expansion they produced. Some of the loads from the Lucky Gunner testing look like they should work just fine in a short barrel.

Thanks for the info and pics!! Very interesting. Especially the part about a new Ranger coming out.

I use RA45T in my 4513TSW (3.75 barrel) and CS45 (3.0 barrel). Ill be looking my rounds over today. Thanks for the heads up!

In my off duty 3914NL (3.5) and CS9 (3.0) I use the RA9B bonded 147 grain round. No worries there about expansion, penetration or core seperation. Regards 18DAI

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7 +1 Rounds of hope & change

Good public service. Thanks for the info and photos!


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Shot the above "scored" bullet this afternoon in the back yard. I have my own range open 24/7 and only about 50 yards from the back door OoRah!

The result was much better than that of just scoring the tip. In fact the bullet lost 5 of the 6 Talon tips. If such ended up in a burglar in my home, accosting me or my family, do you think I care?

Expansion was teriffic! Below is the the picture of before and after. Can't wait until Monday (the 8th) when the RA45T +P arrive and try them out. Suppose to correct the lack of expansion via a bit more velocity. Normally, they do expand until the batch is run that has a worn down tooling that does not score the inside of the copper jacket sufficiently and then it takes a bit more FPS to get the hydraulic action to open up the round

Years ago I had a Ruger Mini-30 that shot the 7.62 x 39 Soviet (AK-47) round. The AK-47 shot FMJ and the soft tip bullets for .308 were designed for opening up under the speed of , well, .308 rifles, which were much higher velocity. I overcame that by finding that Hornady made a .308 single shot pistol bullet that had a thinner jacket sine the single shot pistol did not get the speed of the longer barrel rifles. Those bullets, with their thinner jackets worked GREAT out of a Mini-30. They would be poor choice for something like a bolt action .308 or a AR-10 as they would come apart too quickly, and not penetrate.

Anyway, the bullet.....

The bullet, scored down the side before shooting into gallon water jugs:


The expanded bullet after shooting through 3 gallon jugs of water. It's the one on the right. One on the left was just notched at the very tip and did not perform as it should:

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Vern

Or you could just buy HST and get the results you want without modification

I have done extensive ballistic gel testing with the .45 Shield.
Here goes and it's a long read....the end is the most important findings so feel free to skip to the end

With Shield .45
I did a clearballistics FBI BARE gel test today. 6"x6"x16" with wood backstop
It was 17 degrees F, 61% humidity, Pressure 30.3%
I used my .45 Shield
Federal HST 230gr= penetrated 11 1/2" expanded .82
Federal HST 230 gr +P= penetrated 11 3/4" expanded .80
Critical duty 220 +P = passed through block. recovered in wood .51"
Underwood Extreme defense 120gr=passed through block recovered in wood
Winchester Ranger 230gr (RA45T)=penetrated 11 1/2" expanded .75-.85"
Widest petal was .85
Winchester Ranger 230gr+P (RA45TP)=penetrated 14 3/4" expanded .75-.85
I then shot 4 more rounds of Ranger 230gr+P and they went from 14 1/2" to 14 7/8"
So with my little test I will be carrying the Ranger 230+P.
Just thought you might be interested in the results.
The Federal HST expand beautifully but don't even penetrate to 12" with the shorter Shield barrel.
Here is update.
I did Speer Gold dot 230gr Standard pressure=13"penetration with .625 expansion
Corbon DPX 185gr+P=14 1/2" penetration with .75 expansion
I still like the Ranger 230+P so far with 14 1/2-14 3/4" penetration and .85 expansion at widest point.
One Corbon turned completely around 180degrees
Both expanded nicely

Part 2

Using a Shield .45
Here is results from 4 layers of denim test using a 6x6x20" clear ballisticgel block. Temp 28degrees, humidity 47% and pressure 30.3inHg. Previous test done with bare gel is further below

With both HST and Ranger 230+p and 230 standard pressure was very inconsistent. Around half the rounds would clog with denim and pass through 20" with no expansion. When they did expand penetration was only 11 1/2" This was the exact same results as Federal HST 230+P and standard pressure. 3 out of 4 rounds would fail to expand and passed through
Hornady XTP 200 gr +P also failed to expand 3 out of 4 times and then one time it went to 19" and .51 expansion.
Magtech 230gr JHP failed to fire! The striker would not even dent the primer!
Underwood 120gr Xtreme defense did very well and penetrated to 17" 4 out of 4 times. Of course no expansion with the solid copper bullet
Corbon 165+P DPX expanded beautifully and penetrated 9-10" each time.
There were two clear winner's today. One was Corbon 185+P DPX and the other Underwood 120gr Xtreme Defender.
The Corbon 185+P DPX 4 out of 4 expanded beautifully and penetrated to 14 1/2-15" each time. It also performed exactly the same in bare gel.
The Underwood Xtreme Defender penetrated to 17" every time with 4 layers of denim.

Part 3

.45 Shield
January 20,2017
Weather 35*, Pressure 30inHg, Humidity 83%
FBI clearballistics 16x6x6 block with T bone 6x6x20" resulting in 22" in length
Block stored in 68* and utilized in 2 minutes of being outside
Block had one layer of each of medium weight nylon filled with polyester winter coat, followed by 200gr polartec fleece and 5.3oz Tshirt
This is typical winter attire here in NY. I used no denim as no one seems to be wearing denim around their chest
Results
Underwood 230+P XTP 20.5" penetration, .593" expansion
Underwood 185+P XTP 22" penetration, .55" expansion
Underwood 230+P bonded JHP 14" penetration, .677 expansion
Underwood 185+P bonded JHP 13.5" penetration, .690 expansion
Underwood Xtreme defense 120gr 17" penetration not designed to expand.
This Xtreme defense bullet went to 17" penetration in bare, 4 layers of denim and this test. Very consistent
Winchester Ranger 230+P over 22" and no expansion
Federal HST 230+P was the BIG surprise for me yet again. In bare gel it only went to 11 3/4" penetration and .880 expansion
In 4 layers of denim it passed through 20" of gel 3 out of 4 times. The 4th time in 4 layers it penetrated to 11 1/2" and .820 expansion.
Today the HST 230+p gr was STELLAR. Penetrated to 16" 3 out of 3 times and expanded to .859 on the widest one and .771 on the lowest expanded bullet.
So I did a 2 layer Hanes white cotton t-shirt test and the Federal 230gr HST+P penetrated to 13" and expanded to .875 on one round and penetrated to 13" and .818" on the other round
The standard pressure HST 230 did not do well at all in regards to penetration.
Through winter layers it penetrated 11-12" but expansion was incredible .912!!!
Through the two layer cotton t-shirt was 10 1/2'-11" penetration with .922 expansion!!!
Corbon DPX 185+P is by far the most consistent JHP so far out of the Shield. Penetrated to 14 1/2 to 15 1/2" regardless of bare, 4 layers of denim and this winter wear test. Expansion was between .750 and .780.
Looks like I will use Federal HST 230+P in the fall and winter time and undecided for the spring and summer. Either the Underwood Xtreme defense or the Corbon DPX 185+P

Part 4

So I did some more testing with my .45 shield. I used a clearballistic gel 6x6x20. I used 4 layers of denim that I purchased through clear ballistics.
Corbon DPX 185+p is the most consistent with penetration to 13-14 1/2". Expansion .819.
Golden saber 185+p penetrated to 16-17" expansion .740.
One Golden Saber failed to expand out of 7 rounds.
The surprise this time was 230 HST +P.
5 out of 6 failed to expand and penetrated past 20" into the wood. One only 2/3 of round expanded.
So now I will carry golden saber in the winter and Corbon in the summer.

FINAL!

Using a 5.3oz Cotton T shirt

The Golden saber 185+P penetrated to 14", 5 out of 5 times. All expanded .665" average
The Corbon DPX 185+P penetrated to 15", 5 out of times. All expanded to .817" average
Both are excellent rounds. The golden sabers are certainly loaded hotter than the Corbon
I will use Golden Sabers in Fall and Winter here in NY. Spring and summer Corbon's it is!
You would not go wrong with either one Both are consistent

This makes me wonder how an older bullet like a Silvertip would perform if you scored it....

I have used the 45 Ranger T for many years, going back to the days when it was 'Black'.


I carried them in a 3" Colt Defender, Commander and 5" Gov't model.
Shot some into water jugs as the OP did, all bullets preformed as designed.


But, in real world applications, not necessarily the same level of expansion can be relied upon.


I worked out on the rural route, there were many times we would have
to dispatch deer and cattle that had been hit by vehicles.


Let's just say that, if one wants reliable, consistence performance, try
a sharp shoulder jacket or plated SWC at around 900fps. I did.


In My Real World.....





.

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"IN GOD WE TRUST"

I bet they'd do fine in a 5" barrel. Before I scored them , I'd try HSTs.

Great info! Thanks for taking the time.

Got in the 2 boxes of Ranger T .45 +P ammo today. Shot water jugs with both the Shield 45 and the Sig P-320 45 with this ammo. Impressive. Very impressive(Darth Vader voice) They both expanded as Dr. Gary Roberts had said in an article sent to me. I really noticed no difference in recoil or report from shooting the +P Rangers. Hit exactly where I was aiming. The only difference between the two may be just a bit. The Shield expanded to .935" between 2 talons. The Sig P320 had talons that were 1.037" apart. I notice just a bit taller expanded bullet with the Shield, indication just a wee bit less velocity, which explains the wider talons of the SIG. Shield .430 tall and SIG .371"

All in all it's performance was redemptive! Pictures as follows. I did not find (yet) the brass from the Sig P320, but included a Federal FMJ shot out of it for comparison of the primer strike. S&W has a dimple then tail whereas the Sig only has a simple dimple impression. Easy to tell apart, but I can't remember the reason of the dimple-stretch.








Nasty little rounds ....

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Vern

Try that with 4 layers of denim and ballistics gel. Extremely poor performer outside of anything bare

Not according to these folks that did their testing with ordinance gel and denim. Just scroll down to the .45. http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self...llistic-tests/

Also this guy at "shooting the bull" who did a test on 9mm Ranger T, and in the end put the trophy over from the Federal HST to the Winchester Ranger T.

The whole point of this thread/exercise is to show that even well known brand ammunition can have fluctuation and variances between dates (batch codes). In the Lucky Gunner above they probably had a batch of RA45T that was made with a new or fairly new tooling that cuts the scoring and talon of the bullet. Some batches are just better than other, both in terminal performance and in accuracy, so you "you" need to check out the accuracy and if possible do a little "in house" testing.

Even those that tumbled and had only one side that opened up will be effective in stopping IF shot placement is correct. Placement is #1; the rest is semantics.

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Vern

Correct! Shot placement is number 1
I have tested all these rounds including the 147.
147 performed ok. Nothing exciting. I got 16" penetration and adequate expansion. Nothing close to the HST 124 standard pressure. These were tested out of a Glock 43 and Shield. The +P 124 HST and the 147 HST standard and plus P also failed to open 50% of the time. 25 out of 25 124 HST standard pressure expanded beautifully and penetrated 17 1/2"-18 1/2"
I should have preempted out of a SHORT barrel .45 the Ranger 230 and 230+P is a very poor performer. Failed to expand 16 out of 20 rounds.
5" barrel did make a difference.

When you guys (gqllc007 and Aksarben) get a chance, I suggest testing .45 cal. Federal Tactical Bonded SD rounds (LE45T1). They are on Doc Roberts recommended list, and have done well in the Lucky Gunner tests. In my own informal testing, they have proven the most accurate of the SD rounds I've fired from both my Shield .45 and my full-size FNX-45T. They have also fired 149 consecutive times without a jam from my failure-to-feed prone Shield. I'd be most interested to see how they do in your tests.

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What, me worry?

Remember performance from a short barrel .45 is very different from a full size 5". The only consistent performers were the 185+P .45 in the short barrel Shield. I don't have any of the Federal tactical bonded rounds but if I get my hands on them I will surely test them!

I really prefer the Barnes copper bullets for short barrel usage as their expansion threshold is failure low in comparison to most ammo. I believe their 45cal bullets are designed to expanded down to a tad over 700fps which makes it a solid option for short barreled pistols like the Shield.

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