trikerdon
US Veteran
Can you remove the thumb safety on the .380 ez?
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.380 ez thumb safety
- Thread starter trikerdon
- Start date
Classic Radio99
Well-known member
You probably could, but you may leave yourself open to liability and legal issues.
It might just be better to trade it in for a non-safety version, after all the panic buying subsides (if it ever does).
It might just be better to trade it in for a non-safety version, after all the panic buying subsides (if it ever does).
Rastoff
US Veteran
Yes, you can remove the thumb safety with no degradation in gun performance.
Exactly what legal issues would result from removing the thumb safety? Can you cite a legal case where someone got fined or incarcerated for something like this?
Classic Radio99
Well-known member
As far as I know, in most places it isn't illegal to remove a safety, but laws vary. And since you live in California (I'm sorry...) and I read lots about guns having to be "California Compliant", removing the safety could very well be a violation. If in doubt, get real legal advice from a real attorney, not some random guy on the internet (like me)
But, you could remove the safety from the gun, and nobody would ever know, forevermore...
Unless you end up using the gun in self-defense or there is a negligent discharge. In that case, the gun will be examined very thoroughly and the missing safety will be discovered very quickly.
In a court case you may have to deal with this: " Mr. Rastoff, Smith & Wesson engineers spent millions of dollars over years of development to design a safety for that gun. Why did you decide that it was a good idea to remove that safety?"
You just took all the legal liability and put it squarely on your shoulders.
We all know that is a BS argument, especially since the EZ is available with or without a safety, but a jury or judge might not.
Admittedly, it is pretty long odds that there will be a situation where you end up in court, but why take the chance?
You pays your money, you takes your chances.
Hopefully S&W comes up with a "safety removal kit", but I doubt that will happen.
BTW, I've shot the EZ and I like it, I plan to get one myself, without the safety of course.
Good Luck with whatever you decide to do.
But, you could remove the safety from the gun, and nobody would ever know, forevermore...
Unless you end up using the gun in self-defense or there is a negligent discharge. In that case, the gun will be examined very thoroughly and the missing safety will be discovered very quickly.
In a court case you may have to deal with this: " Mr. Rastoff, Smith & Wesson engineers spent millions of dollars over years of development to design a safety for that gun. Why did you decide that it was a good idea to remove that safety?"
You just took all the legal liability and put it squarely on your shoulders.
We all know that is a BS argument, especially since the EZ is available with or without a safety, but a jury or judge might not.
Admittedly, it is pretty long odds that there will be a situation where you end up in court, but why take the chance?
You pays your money, you takes your chances.
Hopefully S&W comes up with a "safety removal kit", but I doubt that will happen.
BTW, I've shot the EZ and I like it, I plan to get one myself, without the safety of course.
Good Luck with whatever you decide to do.
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Granddad
Well-known member
My wife's EZ has a thumb safety that never gets used (that is what was available when she bought). I guess my question would be, why bother removing it. If you don't use it, just ignore it. One, of course, must be a student of safe gun handling--safety or non.
santareg
Member
Has anyone actually removed the thumb safety from a 380 EZ? S&W makes plugs to fill the holes in the frame for some M&P Shield weapons already per some videos out there. Hoping someone has removed the safety and could share the method. Again, bought the thumb safety version since that was all that was available.
Cheers...
Cheers...
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Rastoff
US Veteran
I asked the question because guys on the internet make paranoid statements all the time. The concern is a legit one; will I run into legal trouble if I modify my gun?
What people rarely think about is, will this modification make me safer in the event of an attack? The answer to that is paramount. Not because you might find yourself in court, but because your life depends on it.
In any self-defense shooting, if the shooting itself is justified, the condition of the gun becomes irrelevant. For example; a lighter trigger pull. If you needed to shoot, the lighter trigger pull will be irrelevant because you needed to shoot. If you didn't need to shoot, why was the gun out in the first place? Gun mods still irrelevant.
No one has ever pointed to a real case where someone went to prison because their gun was modified, but the shooting was legitimate. Not one.
ContinentalOp
Well-known member
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Not the removal of a thumb safety, but removing a magazine disconnect could be construed as a similar situation, and there are a couple cases I'm aware of with that issue. One was a lawsuit after a shooting with a S&W semi-auto with its magazine disconnect removed, alleging negligence. The other was a bit of a roundabout case, where the prosecutor filed manslaughter charges because the defendant owned a Hi-Power with the disconnector removed, even though it wasn't the gun involved, alleging that it showed recklessness on the part of the defendant. This information was posted by Massad Ayoob on another forum. I don't want to post a link here, but I can PM it to you if you want.
In either case, even if it was resolved in the defendant's favor (Ayoob didn't mention the outcomes of those cases), that's more legal hassle and expense than I'd want to deal with. Even if we think it's a non-issue, that doesn't mean a plaintiff or prosecutor won't bring it up and use it if they think it'll help their case.
Rastoff
US Veteran
I hear you ContinentalOP. But all that is speculation. In this case the guy just wants to know if you can remove the thumb safety without affecting the operation of the gun. You can.
Yes, any prosecutor can use anything they find to attempt to discredit you. That's the nature of anything. It could be a sign you have hanging in your man cave. Maybe you pulled the wings off a moth when you were a kid. Maybe you like to wear black shirts. All of these things can be used against you. I choose not to be paranoid about them.
If a gun is going to be used for self-defense, I say use the one you're best with. When your life is on the line, you don't want second best. If a thumb safety could cause you to not be able to fire your gun, remove it. As the saying goes, I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6. Based on all the cases I've read, and now can add two more thanks to you, none will put you in prison because of some small modification to the gun. As long as the shoot is justified.
Yes, any prosecutor can use anything they find to attempt to discredit you. That's the nature of anything. It could be a sign you have hanging in your man cave. Maybe you pulled the wings off a moth when you were a kid. Maybe you like to wear black shirts. All of these things can be used against you. I choose not to be paranoid about them.
If a gun is going to be used for self-defense, I say use the one you're best with. When your life is on the line, you don't want second best. If a thumb safety could cause you to not be able to fire your gun, remove it. As the saying goes, I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6. Based on all the cases I've read, and now can add two more thanks to you, none will put you in prison because of some small modification to the gun. As long as the shoot is justified.
Jon651
Well-known member
I don't think we are in the realm of criminal liability here. I think what ContinentalOp and others are warning about is civil liability, in which the level of proof is MUCH lower than in a criminal case. On the civil side, we've all heard of cases where a criminal has claimed they were the victim regardless of their own criminal intentions.
I've seen it in the FD as a paramedic where I received a subpoena for deposition in several cases where a drunk driver who caused an accident with injuries would sue everyone and their uncle; families suing for wrongful death even though the deceased was at fault; and many other situations. Literally nothing can stop one person from suing another regardless of the circumstances.
Will the OP wind up in jail? Unlikely if ever. Will he open himself up for civil liability? Possibly, but I have no way of know how probably. However I can see the reasoning with the advice about trading in his current pistol for one without the safety, but if that is not possible then at least consider having a professional gunsmith do the job of removing the safety instead of DIY.
ContinentalOp
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You're the one who asked about legal ramifications, and that's the only reason I responded. If OP wants to remove the safety on his gun, that's his business. If there are legal repercussions down the line, that's his responsibility.
I mention a case of manslaughter charges being brought by a prosecutor because of a disabled safety and I'm only warning about civil liability?
As I said in my post, even if no one goes to jail or loses a lawsuit, it's going to cost time and money to defend against any charges/suits.
Do what you want. Just be aware of the potential consequences. Hopefully, none of us will have to find out firsthand.
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Some people "think" removing the Internal lock" will lead to liability. Or using reloaded ammo. One needs to find actual case law. to prove it,
The IL is not a safety it is a lock, Now if a child go a hold of it and it was not locked or removed that may be an issue.
But back to the safety. What is the need to remove it?
I have lots of guns that have safety's, It's part of the gun. Learn how it works or buy another gun if it freaks you out, Some of mine are so hard to engage plus I never use them.
How many people carry 1911's, they have a thumb safety.
Many guns today do not have safetys don;t even have the stupid dongle on the trigger like a Glock. The safety is your brain and trigger finger.
The IL is not a safety it is a lock, Now if a child go a hold of it and it was not locked or removed that may be an issue.
But back to the safety. What is the need to remove it?
I have lots of guns that have safety's, It's part of the gun. Learn how it works or buy another gun if it freaks you out, Some of mine are so hard to engage plus I never use them.How many people carry 1911's, they have a thumb safety.
Many guns today do not have safetys don;t even have the stupid dongle on the trigger like a Glock. The safety is your brain and trigger finger.
Classic Radio99
Well-known member
I did a little checking and this concept has been debated multiple times over the years. One of the most extensive is here: Legal ramifications for removal of mag safety | The High Road
Participants included an actual lawyer, as well as Massad Ayoob (yes, that one!)
There were several interesting points in that thread, but they mostly came down to the idea that if your gun is involved in something bad, you may end up in court where everything you do is under scrutiny, and the jury will have little or no practical knowledge of firearms. In that case, you don't want to hand the opposing attorney a club to beat you over the head with.
And speaking of modifications, look up the case of Phillip Brailsford. He is a cop who was involved in a very questionable shooting. His modification? A dust cover on his AR witch was inscribed with the words "You're Fd" One of the factors in the decision to prosecute him was that modification to his AR. (Although the Judge in the criminal trial disallowed that piece of evidence) He was acquitted but was successfully sued by the victim's survivors. One article is here: Shooting of Daniel Shaver - Wikipedia
In a perfect world, we would not have to worry about this because the court system system works on irrefutable logic. But, that's not the world we live in. If you land in court, nothing is assured, no matter how legal, logical, or correct it may actually be. At that point, what you think doesn't matter, it's what the Judge and Jury think that count.
The best thing is to understand the potential ramifications to any modification you make and make the best decision for your situation. Life is full of risks, and "what are the odds?". Only you can make that decision for you.
Participants included an actual lawyer, as well as Massad Ayoob (yes, that one!)
There were several interesting points in that thread, but they mostly came down to the idea that if your gun is involved in something bad, you may end up in court where everything you do is under scrutiny, and the jury will have little or no practical knowledge of firearms. In that case, you don't want to hand the opposing attorney a club to beat you over the head with.
And speaking of modifications, look up the case of Phillip Brailsford. He is a cop who was involved in a very questionable shooting. His modification? A dust cover on his AR witch was inscribed with the words "You're Fd" One of the factors in the decision to prosecute him was that modification to his AR. (Although the Judge in the criminal trial disallowed that piece of evidence) He was acquitted but was successfully sued by the victim's survivors. One article is here: Shooting of Daniel Shaver - Wikipedia
In a perfect world, we would not have to worry about this because the court system system works on irrefutable logic. But, that's not the world we live in. If you land in court, nothing is assured, no matter how legal, logical, or correct it may actually be. At that point, what you think doesn't matter, it's what the Judge and Jury think that count.
The best thing is to understand the potential ramifications to any modification you make and make the best decision for your situation. Life is full of risks, and "what are the odds?". Only you can make that decision for you.
santareg
Member
Question remains. On another forum it was stated by a respondent that the 380 EZ thumb safety could not be physically removed. If anyone has done this and could share the procedure I will deal with the possible issues that may or may not result legally if I need to use the weapon for self defense.
Thanks to all.
Thanks to all.
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santareg
Member
More Thumb Safety Removel
**Another follow up on this subject.**
I called S&W on this since they make kits to remove the thumb safety on other MP models, the "kit" is simply two plugs that snap in the cut outs for the thumb safety. This makes it like the factory non thumb safety model, if you look closely at those models (I also own a EZ 9mm without the thumb safety) you will see the plugs installed by S&W. That would solve an legal issues since the factory sells the weapon that way. Unfortunately S&W doesn't sell the plugs at present for EZ 380 or 9mm models. Maybe if more called and ask for them they will sell/add them as a kit for the EZ...
**Another follow up on this subject.**
I called S&W on this since they make kits to remove the thumb safety on other MP models, the "kit" is simply two plugs that snap in the cut outs for the thumb safety. This makes it like the factory non thumb safety model, if you look closely at those models (I also own a EZ 9mm without the thumb safety) you will see the plugs installed by S&W. That would solve an legal issues since the factory sells the weapon that way. Unfortunately S&W doesn't sell the plugs at present for EZ 380 or 9mm models. Maybe if more called and ask for them they will sell/add them as a kit for the EZ...
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santareg
Member
Removed MP380 Thumb Safety-NOT
Without a response from others on the procedure to remove the thumb safety I waded in and dissembled the 380 EZ to remove the safety. All went well, be careful to find a way to catch the thumb safety detent pin and spring (it took 20 minutes and a magnet to find mine). All went well then put the hammer assembly back in and replaced the drift pin. 4 racks and dry fires later the hammer wouldn't drop. Had a bear of a time to get the slide off, found the sear pivot pin had moved and slipped out on one side of the hammer block assembly, it is held in by the tension of the safety detent spring and pin. So in order to keep it together I needed to replace the spring, pin and safety lever that hold all together! Three hours wasted. S&W must use a different sear pivot or the frame plugs that are in non safety 380 EZ's are made to hold the sear detent spring and pin in. Over three hours and several reassembly lessons learned, you almost need three hands to hold stuff together and install every thing so the hammer actuator is proper and grip safety actuator goes into the grip safety. Also as a FYI non EZ MP frame plugs did not seem to be a fit, $10.00 wasted, but now I know. Anyone need some MP 9MM non safety frame plugs? Next to see if S@W will sell me parts needed - frame plugs etc. Other option is wait for the panic to end and trade it in for a non-safety model!!
***Update*** S@W does NOT sell the frame plugs for the EZ models at this time and the customer service rep did not know if they will in the future! S&W did offer to refund the funds paid for the non EZ - MP 9 frame plugs I ordered even though it was my error, nice.
Without a response from others on the procedure to remove the thumb safety I waded in and dissembled the 380 EZ to remove the safety. All went well, be careful to find a way to catch the thumb safety detent pin and spring (it took 20 minutes and a magnet to find mine). All went well then put the hammer assembly back in and replaced the drift pin. 4 racks and dry fires later the hammer wouldn't drop. Had a bear of a time to get the slide off, found the sear pivot pin had moved and slipped out on one side of the hammer block assembly, it is held in by the tension of the safety detent spring and pin. So in order to keep it together I needed to replace the spring, pin and safety lever that hold all together! Three hours wasted. S&W must use a different sear pivot or the frame plugs that are in non safety 380 EZ's are made to hold the sear detent spring and pin in. Over three hours and several reassembly lessons learned, you almost need three hands to hold stuff together and install every thing so the hammer actuator is proper and grip safety actuator goes into the grip safety. Also as a FYI non EZ MP frame plugs did not seem to be a fit, $10.00 wasted, but now I know. Anyone need some MP 9MM non safety frame plugs? Next to see if S@W will sell me parts needed - frame plugs etc. Other option is wait for the panic to end and trade it in for a non-safety model!!
***Update*** S@W does NOT sell the frame plugs for the EZ models at this time and the customer service rep did not know if they will in the future! S&W did offer to refund the funds paid for the non EZ - MP 9 frame plugs I ordered even though it was my error, nice.
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