Iron sites vs red dot site

Looking for some feedback on purchasing a holosun 407k for my equalizer. Is there that much of a difference using a red dot over the iron sites?

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My thoughts on the RDS, at the moment: I put red dots on a couple of my carry guns, a G19 MOS and a Hellcat MOS. My reason was that my eyes aren't what they used to be. I wear strong progressive glasses as I now require strong lenses for both near and far. It's gotten far more difficult to use Iron sights. I have to look through near the bottom of my lenses to have a decent sight picture. If I don't my POI is off. Of course the target is then far from clear. I don't have any problem qualifying but it is very annoying.

The bad news is that my hands aren't as steady as they used to be. That causes the red dot, on guns so equipped, to really dance around. Surprisingly it's much more distracting to me to have a red dot dancing all around than to have irons weaving around. For that reason I actually shoot better with irons.

I haven't, as of yet, put in much time practicing with the RDS's and I think when I do I'll come around to being more accurate with the RDS's, but I'm not sure. I obviously have many, many, many more years of experience with irons so that undoubtedly plays a role. I have qualified with guns with RDS's two time and passed without issue but with a lower score than I would with irons. The most recent qualification I used the Hellcat with RDS for my semi-auto and a 4" 686 with irons for my wheel gun. A pretty stark contrast at this point. I've got to put in more time with the RDS's. Mediocre with the RDS Hellcat and near perfect with the 686 with irons (one flyer).

As for the Holosun brand of RDS I have no opinion.

oink: Put a laser on a handgun if you REALLY want to see what the dancing looks like shooting offhand at 50' or so! It can be truly humbling...

As for the OP's question, it depends upon whether you are using them for carry/home defense, etc. versus shooting targets at distance at the range. Personally, I believe co-witnessed to backup iron sights is probably the best of both worlds.

It does take some practice to be able to acquire the red dot at first.

Cheers!

Yes, there's a big difference between iron sights and red dot. My 10mm M&P only made one trip to the range with the red dot before having mounting plate issues. I will recommend getting a good sight plate from C&H, the plastic plates don't hold up.

I will be 58 next week and my eyes aren't what they once were. The red dot even made me look like a great shot. The red dot is super easy to use. My 10mm has the tall sights which makes the red dot setup a breeze, you can bore sight by witnessing (lining up the red dot with the iron sights).

I have a 1911 with fiber optic sights. The fiber optic sight work great with aging eyes. I will likely get some better sights on my daily carry Shield.

I am not familiar with your pistol. If yours has the tall sights, I will say they hang up on everything then adding a red dot finding a holster will likely be a challenge.

There have been other inquiries about RDS, and several people have posted about their experiences, myself included. Do some searching. I have a couple of pistols equipped with RDS (and 2 of my rifles, and a shotgun) and I find that they really help in addressing my aging eyes.

You didn't say how you would be using a dot.

I have both. I use iron sights on my carry and dots on my target pistol and revolver. Never was a fan of a dot for self defense but there is a growing acceptance for competition and within the LE community.

You might want to watch this as I consider the author very qualified to discuss dots.

Massad Ayoob's Pros and Cons of Red Dot Optics for Every Day Carry Handguns: Critical Mas Ep. 08 - YouTube

I’ll also add it may take some adjustment to become comfortable with the RDS. I see them frequently in my IDPA and ASI games and frequently see new RDS shooters searching for the dot after they draw.

Arguably if one’s draw can bring your iron sights up and aligned, same should apply to RDS. However, I’ve seen lots of folks searching the window for the dot. Over time they get better and their scores normally improve noticeably.

My point is, you’ll need some practice and commitment to master the new sighting system. When one does, they are usually much better, especially at distance.

Good luck

For target shooting I can't see the target and sights any more, but a red dot makes it easy.

A laser, OTOH, shows how much I wiggle, so it doesn't do much good.

Although the RD makes my scores better, target acquisition is delayed. For that reason my carry guns use open sights.

In 2015 when I put a Trijicon RMR RM07 on my M&P40 PC Ported I shared a picture of it on this forum.
The roar of the disdain and ridicule, scourn, and, laughter from the "experts" who had NEVER actually shot a RMR equipped pistol was deafening.
However, since I recognized the "experts" were actually on "experts' in their own minds and since none of them had contributed a cent to my purchases it mean absolutely nothing to me.
Now almost eight years later there's not a major single manufacturer that doesn't offer cut slides or even completed RMR equipped pistols.
As the original M&P OR pistols came with metal plates I've never had an issue as some apparently have with plastic plates.
I really can't understand why S&W did that.
Anyway, almost 8 years later and with thousands of rounds through RMR equipped pistols I'm more convinced than I was in 2015 that it was a great move FOR ME.
If the OP can shoot a RMR equipped pistol it would be a great aid in determining if he liked it or not.
All three of my Trijicon RMR equipped pistols have suppressor height sights and the dot just sits on top of the sights.
For me that made the transition far easier and I never really had an issue in finding the dot quickly, just go for a sight picture and the dot is there.

One thing I've heard some new RMR shooters struggle with is that after they find the dot then they try to make sure it's setting on the front sight.
That's unnecessary and slows down the shot time.
Once you see the dot ANYWHERE in the window get on your desired POI and break the shot.
Again, if you see the dot on the target you're good to go REGARDLESS of where the dot is in the window.



Cheers
James

I have a Holosun 510c-gr on my Sport 2 and love how it works for me. With my eyes that sight is easy to pick up and focus thru. I have not tried a sight like that on a handgun yet but am thinking that it could be a positive addition in some instances. Could be interesting trying them out anyway.

Interesting discussion. You guys are talking from the standpoint of defensive/carry uses. My use is much more sporting/recreational.

About 5 years ago I returned to Bullseye after a 20 year hiatus. One of the first things I noticed was that EVERYONE was shooting a red dot sight. Before I get ahead of myself, let me be frank; most of the people in our league are flat out terrible. We're not talking Brian Zinns by a longshot. Most are averaging below 200 on a 300 point National Match Course. Thats just a perspective.

Anyhow, I shot irons for the first year, then I got a dot just to try. I shot the dot for a year or two, then I went back to my irons this year. Just some observations:

1. At 57 years of age, I can still see the sights.
2. The dot does help my slowfire scores just a bit. I can literally see tiny differences in where I am in the black. It's only a point or two at best, but it is there.
3. Timed and rapid, I'm not so sure. As a previous poster said, I really can see that dot dancing around and I find that VERY distracting. On a good day it's OK, but on a shaky day it really bothers me.

So I think as long as I can see irons I'll stick to them. A time may come ( or rather will come) when this option will cease to exist, and then the dot will come back out.

Just my two cents...

kstewart61 said:

Looking for some feedback on purchasing a holosun 407k for my equalizer. Is there that much of a difference using a red dot over the iron sites?

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I will say Do Noy add a dot optic the your carry handgun and expect to shoot it well . It might take you a 1000 rounds to be as good as you are with open sights or 5 times as many rounds fired !

Place a dot optic on a fun gun say a 22lr pistol preferable a version of what you carry would help and get use to looking at your target and seeing the dot, Not looking for the dot and then adjust to the target . IF your focus on your iron sights now Your not ready for a dot or really for defending your self .

Read up on Flash Sight Picture shooting style and as you go you may notice your not needing to" flash " opvetr your front sight at all till your distance gets longer , say 15 yards + . You do ned a natural draw and point at a target with hunting for sights or dots to become good .

If you feel you want a dot optic be sure you like a red dot over a green dotas some others beside Holosun offer green dots finally. Most folks well see the green dot better over different back grounds and some dot optics will go in to a sleep mode with "shake awake " but really that can be touch itand its ready to use . Some optics also change the dots intensity automatically and that is a nice feature . We had a RM02 on a m&p core untill I bought a Holosun 407C-GR X2 .

I found the green worked better for me and as it turned out for my wife . We also liked the 32moa circle and 2moa dot dot .
We have a very apex upgraded M&P CORE 9mm thats been a fun gun for years and I have a m&p 4" compact 2.0 . Both wear the 407C-GR X2 and my compact is a practice only pistol that I may need or want one day But at 67 year old and wearing trifocals I still carry open sights on my lw commander and M&P 4.25 40sw that are my carry options . I been using the FSP style for 43 years and sight type so long as its not distracting works well . Black rear sight always and a skinny front sight with a gold bead are my preferred front sight but black or green fiber front sight works fine too Hate red anything front sight .

Now figure out if you really need if any thing new and make the change to see but on a handgun other than what your carry .

Remember a defensive handgun is not useng the sights while
S L O W fired shots for small group accuracy . Some USPSA and IPSC carboard targets have A zone areas you want to hit . Try to be solid hitting those A zone areas first from a low ready then from the from the draw with several fired shots quickly is what you need to become good at .

OP, PM me here and I can give you a link to very popular site with ten times more info and experience (no offense to anyone) than you will find here for RDS on pistols.

There is a 56 page thread that started in 2019 and goes to recently on this subject, with a wealth of knowledge on RDS's for HG's if your willing to read through it all.

I started out with just a dovetail mounted RDS and once I got a couple thousand rounds and draws on it I slowly started to send my pistols out one by one to be milled, with the exception of a couple of my newer optics ready M&P's.

A little food for thought here, but if you're not seeing the dot when you present your pistol whether drawing or just bringing it up, that also means that your iron sights are going to be off to.

Yes you may be better and quicker with your Iron sights at first, but with enough time experience and practice there should eventually be no difference at all.

With iron sights you are focusing on three different focal planes. Front sight, rear sight, and the target. the human eye can only focus on one focal plane at a time, which is why our scopes on our rifles have a diopter adjustment. This is also why a lot of instructors will tell you to focus on the front sight and leave the rear sights and target a little fuzzy. That all goes away with a pistol mounted RDS.

That being said the better your eyesight is the quicker they can focus back and forth between three different focal planes, which is why a lot of shooters claim they are still better with irons, but imagine if they put the time in with a rds.

With an optic mounted pistol once you can naturally bring the dot up into your view and superimpose it on the target your only concentrating on one focal plane and that is the target, which is the most important factor for accuracy.

I'm also going to say that no matter what you read from me here or anywhere about pistol mounted RDS's is that it is something that you have to put in the time and effort for and it is not for everyone.

There are some bull's-eye shooters at my club that could shoot lights out with just their irons but they are mostly boomers with aging eyes, and have now switched to RDS's on their pistols.

kstewart61 said:

Looking for some feedback on purchasing a holosun 407k for my equalizer. Is there that much of a difference using a red dot over the iron sites?

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For distances from 0 to 30ft iron sights are faster. Red dots at 50 feet and beyond is better but with good night sites I can get good hits

I’ve got Crimson Trace Red Laser on several guns and the Green Crimson Trace on a couple of my compacts.
I bought a Springfield Hellcat Pro last April and installed the Wasp Red Dot on it and sighted it in. Not only do I have to align my front sight with my rear sight, now I’ve got to have the Red Dot centered just over the front sight for proper sight alignment. The Wasp Red Dot works just fine but now I’ve got one more thing to think about and quite frankly I don’t like the Red Dot. I know lots of shooters that like their Red Dot sights on their guns. I’m not one of them and have taken the Red Dot off my Hellcat Pro and shoot just as well with the iron sights.

marathonrunner said:

For distances from 0 to 30ft iron sights are faster. Red dots at 50 feet and beyond is better but with good night sites I can get good hits

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Nope.

Iron sights are faster if you learned on iron sights and then “used” a dot and didn’t bother to “learn” it.

There’s a reason open division exists... if it didn’t, no one with irons would ever... EVER win a USPSA National.

Don’t confuse lack of familiarity with deficiency.

Now that the prior is out of the way, it’s about learning the way of the dot. There are really good instructors that will set anyone on the right track to unlearn the years of iron sights that have limited them and allow them to embrace the advancement the dot can bring. These instructors include the Sig Academy, Branden Wright, Mike Pannone, Earnest Langdon, Sage Dynamics, Modern Samurai Project (Scott Jedlinski), and a bunch of other instructors.

I just finished my second two-day Wright Shooting class among many of the others above and I’ll say that if I’ve got to fight at any distance I want a dot on my gun. I have well over a dozen pistols equipped with dots. I’ve trained hundreds of people to use them and have information on many real-world incidents that have occurred with people I’ve trained.

I say all this not to try to make my experience yours... but to show you that you shouldn’t trust anyone that can’t back up their experience with numbers... because someone telling you what they experienced is anecdotal. Someone telling you what they experienced and what they’ve seen hundreds to thousands of others experience over several years is probably more applicable... but may not be totally applicable to you.

This is the internet and be careful of the non-individualized advice you get.

sophie said:

I’ve got Crimson Trace Red Laser on several guns and the Green Crimson Trace on a couple of my compacts.
I bought a Springfield Hellcat Pro last April and installed the Wasp Red Dot on it and sighted it in. Not only do I have to align my front sight with my rear sight, now I’ve got to have the Red Dot centered just over the front sight for proper sight alignment. The Wasp Red Dot works just fine but now I’ve got one more thing to think about and quite frankly I don’t like the Red Dot. I know lots of shooters that like their Red Dot sights on their guns. I’m not one of them and have taken the Red Dot off my Hellcat Pro and shoot just as well with the iron sights.

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I’m a big fan of lasers (I first trained with Clyde Caseres around 2001 with the Crimson Trace LE program before I went into LE, and I’ve used them in an authorized capacity on my department since 2003) and I think they very much have their place in a lot of different roles and needs. In the right circumstance the laser simply can’t be beat for effectiveness at speed.

I think your problem with running an optic is that you haven’t been taught how to use one. At some point you, me, and everyone else didn’t know how to use iron sights. It’s a thing. I’ve trained thousands of people, and many of them had never aimed a gun. I had to teach them to do that.

For many of us, we have been taught, learned, or figured out how to aim with iron sights and we now do that to a somewhat proficient degree. Enter a dot and the presentation.

We know irons and the visual method of alignment. Irons (as Mike Pannone puts it) allows us to be sloppy because we can see and correct errors that should always have been corrected by motion... motor skill.

The dot requires us to learn and further develop motor skill. It makes us better...faster... more accurate. If you’re willing to learn. If you’re going to “try”... then you’ll probably fail because Yoda and all that.


So how do we learn to use the dot? Yes it moves a lot. Learn to live in the wobble and you will improve. If you have to go fast it’s not a dot.. it’s a streak of light that you use to determine when to press the trigger when the streak is entering the acceptable target area, and follow-up shots are a streak that bounces off the point of aim. There’s so much more to the story but that requires interested people to ask questions or take classes.

Just start with a red dot on a fun gun . Not on your Carry Handgun until your faster And with controlled shoot placement than with iron sights .

When your mind is young, but your eyes are old, YES you need a red dot! At least I do. No matter what glasses I used it was always an issue switching from target to front sight - not with the red dot! Definitely made me a better shot.

bulls-i said:

When your mind is young, but your eyes are old, YES you need a red dot! At least I do. No matter what glasses I used it was always an issue switching from target to front sight - not with the red dot! Definitely made me a better shot.

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Glad to hear that I am 61 in bad health since 2014 when they cracked my chest open for my heart! I feel like I am 75 lol.

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