FTF - Firing pin not receding until 2nd rack [Resolved]

[This is resolved. "Replaced plunger tube" by S&W]

Hello all. I've got a failure to feed scenario that I don't know if I can actually call a malfunction or not.

The long story is that I recently purchased my first Smith and Wesson (and first dedicated CCW), an M&P9 Shield Plus. I encountered a failure to feed scenario with the first round I attempted to chamber. The firing pin was protruding, causing a bind between it and the rim of the cartridge (a Sig 365 aluminum cased hollow point). I repeated the issue with Hornady Critical Defense ammunition. Tried both magazines it came with, and repeated the issue with full mags, and mags with one, three, or five rounds.

Confused, I took the pistol back to the gun shop for assistance. The staff were unable to reproduce the issue, and fired some test rounds at their range. I fired some too, but was only able to reproduce the issue once while at the range.

Eventually I called S&W, explained I had cleaned the weapon, etc, and accepted their suggestion to ship the weapon to them.

Here's the good part/TLDR: While waiting on the return label to arrive, I experimented with the chambering process and eventually found that, after a dry fire, the firing pin will always protrude to the point of preventing chambering a round. It will absolutely never recede until I *fully* rack the slide and let it close. After that, the pin is set and I have no issues.

I can work around this by either never decocking/dry firing, or by always racking the slide once before inserting a magazine, and racking a second time to actually chamber a round.

I asked S&W support "Is this behavior intentional or expected? Does the weapon need to be shipped to S&W for inspection? I've never encountered the issue in other firearms, and none of the gun shop staff were aware of it, so I'm hesitant to accept that it's functioning safely and as intended just because I discovered a consistent way to reproduce it and a way to avoid this failure to feed problem." I sent a load of images and a few video clips demonstrating how to reproduce it, but unfortunately most of those expose my serial number. I did find one image I can share that clearly shows the issue though.

The response I got from S&W support was an apology, and a recommendation to please send the firearm in for review.

I'm still not certain if there actually is a problem though. Maybe I'm just not used to the way this weapon functions? Can anyone here weigh in? It's worth noting that I've read the manual a couple of times and see that it explicitly says to not use the weapon if the firing pin is protruding. The good news is that I can't use the weapon while the pin is protruding. It also explicitly says to not load a magazine until I'm ready to use the weapon, so I'm not sure how seriously to take that. I definitely won't be asking an assailant to please wait while I load my mags.

Many thanks,
Lagoon

Sounds like a problem to me. I vote send it in. Could be some debris in the striker channel or the striker itself is out of spec or bent.

At any rate it seems like the pistol is in an unsafe condition. Please send it in.

Welcome to the Forum!

The firing pin should never protrude as you describe it. Here is a quote from page 15 of the Shield Plus owner's manual:

"WARNING: VERIFY THAT THE FIRING PIN IS NOT PROTRUDING FROM THE BREECH FACE. IF THE FIRING PIN IS PROTRUDING, MAKE SURE THE FIREARM IS POINTED IN A SAFE DIRECTION, UNLOAD THE FIREARM AND HAVE IT INSPECTED AND TEST FIRED BY A GUNSMITH QUALIFIED TO PERFORM SERVICE ON SMITH & WESSON® FIREARMS."

Send it back.

Send it back to S&W.

If the firing pin is sticking, you are a candidate for a slam fire, maybe several until the magazine is empty.

I have to apologize for it, but I can't refrain from mentioning that a quote from the manual that I referred to directly wasn't one of the helpful bits.

I do sincerely appreciate all the helpful input. It will remain unloaded and collecting dust until the shipping label arrives

I've just been learning about internal safeties and how exactly they function. The consistent reproducibility makes me curious if the striker spring isn't pulling the pin back behind the striker safety notch.

Regardless, I'll certainly be sending off my brand new pistol. I hope they explain what the issue is, and I'll be sure to post if I find out.

Many thanks guys,
Lagoon

Send it in.

The warranty is one of the most important considerations when buying a Smith.

Lagoon5894 said:

I've just been learning about internal safeties and how exactly they function. The consistent reproducibility makes me curious if the striker spring isn't pulling the pin back behind the striker safety notch.

Regardless, I'll certainly be sending off my brand new pistol. I hope they explain what the issue is, and I'll be sure to post if I find out.

Many thanks guys,
Lagoon

Click to expand...

I don't own a Shield Plus, but I was under the impression that most striker fired pistols have a fairly weak return spring that pushes the striker back after it has hit the primer. If the striker channel is gunned up to some degree, then it might be that the return spring is not strong enough to overcome the sticktion. Also, when dry firing I would expect that the firing pin protrusion beyond the breech face is more than when you fire a round or use a snap cap.



I would load a snap cap, pull the trigger, remove the magazine, then carefully ease back the slide such that the snap cap drops out before you get to the point where the striker is reset by racking. If the firing pin is sticking out, there is something major wrong with the striker movement or even a missing return spring. If the firing pin is retracted, then there is still an issue with gunk hanging up the system when the FP gets shoved all the way out.

Not only is this not normal, it is quite dangerous. Send it back. Hopefully, it can be fixed.

That is definitely not normal and that pistol should be returned to S&W. Do not attempt any further firings with it until it is repaired.

That’s a dangerous condition as others have stated. I had a Walter ppk once that did that and dropping the slide emptied the magazine instantly, that’s not something you want to see. After that experience it was years before I could bring myself to trust any semi auto pistol.

Lagoon5894 said:

<snip>I experimented with the chambering process and eventually found that, after a dry fire, the firing pin will always protrude to the point of preventing chambering a round. It will absolutely never recede until I *fully* rack the slide and let it close. After that, the pin is set and I have no issues.

I can work around this by either never decocking/dry firing, or by always racking the slide once before inserting a magazine, and racking a second time to actually chamber a round.
<snip>

Click to expand...

Under no circumstance, should the striker tip remain exposed after firing (live or dry) so send it back.

What's likely happening is that the striker return spring is not retracting the striker after trigger pull (live or dry fire). It may be broken, kinked, there may be oil, debris in the channel, etc.). There could even be an issue with the striker block.

When you rack the slide, the "hook" on the striker slides over the sear. A track under the slide pushes the trigger bar outward, resetting the sear. When the slide returns forward, the "hook" catches on the sear and, as the slide continues forward, retracts the striker from the breech.

If you try to load a round (real or dummy), the barrel will start to tip up before the striker engages the sear. Since the striker tip is still extended, the round rim is blocked by the striker tip and JAM!!

When you rack it first (no mag), the striker engages the sear and retracts it allowing you to chamber the next round. Note, the striker is secured by the striker block.

So I just want to confirm this ONLY happens after you dry fire or "decock"?

Anyway, as others have stated, send it back.

Fully disassemble it and clean out the firing pin channel. Someone prob put lube in there and gummed it up. If it still protrudes after thorough cleaning, i vote send it back.
The idea that the gun shop did not attempt to disassemble and look in the channel or at least shoot some ballistol/clp/ wd40 into the channel also causes me concern

Please! Absolutely NO WD-40! in any firearm you care about...

And that should be just about all of them, huh...?

Cheers!

The weapon is sealed inside layers of packaging and various bags inside boxes while I wait on the label to arrive, so have no fear fellow forum-goers. It won't be seeing any ammunition before it sees a technician.
---


Thanks for the striker fire description, Saudade. Along with the obvious question "Is this simply different from what I'm familiar with?", that's the type of information I was hoping for.

Saudade said:

So I just want to confirm this ONLY happens after you dry fire or "decock"?

Click to expand...

That is correct. There were no issues after the first round was in the chamber, although it was only fed somewhere around 50 rounds.

I racked the slide and eased it back so that I could watch the internals as much as possible. After every dry fire, the striker is protruding. During and after the first rack the pin remains protruding. During the second rack the pin recedes while the striker cocks.

Is "decock" not a thing? I'm no stranger to firearms, but am learning quite a lot thanks to this ordeal.

Thank you all for your anecdotes and other forms of education,
Lagoon

De-cocking is a thing for revolvers and pistols that have a hammer that allows for single action fire, but I am not aware of any de-cocking for a striker fired pistol. Like any semi-automatic pistol, the M&P line has a return spring around the firing pin. The pin should never protrude from the breech face except for the instant that the trigger is pulled to allow the pistol to fire. There is something wrong with your pistol, return it to S&W. Don't try to DIY fix it.

Lagoon5894 said:

<snip>
Thanks for the striker fire description, Saudade. Along with the obvious question "Is this simply different from what I'm familiar with?", that's the type of information I was hoping for.
<snip>

Is "decock" not a thing? I'm no stranger to firearms, but am learning quite a lot thanks to this ordeal.

Thank you all for your anecdotes and other forms of education,
Lagoon

Click to expand...

Striker fired pistols have striker return springs to retract the striker pin. Many hammer fired ones do as well. Your Shield Plus should act the same way but, obviously, it's not.

As far as "decocking" goes, while usually reserved for hammer fired handguns, can apply to striker fired. I "decock" (dryfire) all my striker pistols before putting them back into my bag when leaving the range, and after cleaning before going back into the safe. It's not necessary but I do it anyway. I decock all my hammer fired ones so I don't treat my strikers any differently in that regard.

stansdds said:

De-cocking is a thing for revolvers and pistols that have a hammer that allows for single action fire, but I am not aware of any de-cocking for a striker fired pistol. Like any semi-automatic pistol, the M&P line has a return spring around the firing pin. The pin should never protrude from the breech face except for the instant that the trigger is pulled to allow the pistol to fire. There is something wrong with your pistol, return it to S&W. Don't try to DIY fix it.

Click to expand...

Fun fact! Walther and Canik fitted a decocking button on top of the slide on some of their models. Apparently, it was supposed to get around the nervousness people feel about pulling the trigger to disassemble a striker fired gun.

Saudade, I see. Thanks for the clarification. I am completely unfamiliar with hammer fired weapons. The only time I've shot a rental revolver, I manually pulled at the rim of each .380 cartridge to reload. I was too ignorant to be embarrassed at the time Omnipotence is hard to come by, so I believe I can accept that particular iteration of ignorance.

LVSteve said:

Fun fact! Walther and Canik fitted a decocking button on top of the slide on some of their models. Apparently, it was supposed to get around the nervousness people feel about pulling the trigger to disassemble a striker fired gun.

Click to expand...

Hah, that's neat indeed . I initially didn't understand the purpose of the take down lever in the Shield. It feels far more complicated to use than my Walther and just seemed odd. I suspect this feature will become an equivalent fun fact that many forget had ever existed.

Sincerely,
Lagoon

Lagoon5894 said:

Hello all. I've got a failure to feed scenario that I don't know if I can actually call a malfunction or not.

The long story is that I recently purchased my first Smith and Wesson (and first dedicated CCW), an M&P9 Shield Plus. I encountered a failure to feed scenario with the first round I attempted to chamber. The firing pin was protruding, causing a bind between it and the rim of the cartridge (a Sig 365 aluminum cased hollow point). I repeated the issue with Hornady Critical Defense ammunition. Tried both magazines it came with, and repeated the issue with full mags, and mags with one, three, or five rounds.

Confused, I took the pistol back to the gun shop for assistance. The staff were unable to reproduce the issue, and fired some test rounds at their range. I fired some too, but was only able to reproduce the issue once while at the range.

Eventually I called S&W, explained I had cleaned the weapon, etc, and accepted their suggestion to ship the weapon to them.

Here's the good part/TLDR: While waiting on the return label to arrive, I experimented with the chambering process and eventually found that, after a dry fire, the firing pin will always protrude to the point of preventing chambering a round. It will absolutely never recede until I *fully* rack the slide and let it close. After that, the pin is set and I have no issues.

I can work around this by either never decocking/dry firing, or by always racking the slide once before inserting a magazine, and racking a second time to actually chamber a round.

I asked S&W support "Is this behavior intentional or expected? Does the weapon need to be shipped to S&W for inspection? I've never encountered the issue in other firearms, and none of the gun shop staff were aware of it, so I'm hesitant to accept that it's functioning safely and as intended just because I discovered a consistent way to reproduce it and a way to avoid this failure to feed problem." I sent a load of images and a few video clips demonstrating how to reproduce it, but unfortunately most of those expose my serial number. I did find one image I can share that clearly shows the issue though.

The response I got from S&W support was an apology, and a recommendation to please send the firearm in for review.

I'm still not certain if there actually is a problem though. Maybe I'm just not used to the way this weapon functions? Can anyone here weigh in? It's worth noting that I've read the manual a couple of times and see that it explicitly says to not use the weapon if the firing pin is protruding. The good news is that I can't use the weapon while the pin is protruding. It also explicitly says to not load a magazine until I'm ready to use the weapon, so I'm not sure how seriously to take that. I definitely won't be asking an assailant to please wait while I load my mags.

Many thanks,
Lagoon

Click to expand...

The "issue" you describe is common to striker fired pistols - including the Glock series. This is NORMAL operation though it should be covered in the manual - or by a knowledgeable instructor (few) to avoid precisely what you have encountered.

Here is how and why it happens. Many striker fired pistols require the trigger to be pulled to allow the slide unit to be stripped forward off the frame. Pulling the trigger allows the firing pin sear to move forward far enough so as to not interact with the release sear.

When the trigger is pulled, the striker block is also released allowing the striker to shoot completely forward, powered by it's spring where it will stay until some action occurs to cause its retraction. Because so many shooters are behavior-modified to "pull the trigger" before storing their empty striker fired guns, the striker is fully forward. Friction from the striker block (spring powered) combined with the striker spring serve to hold the striker forward.
When a magazine is inserted and the slide racked, the striker nose extends from the breech face until captured by the trigger sear, however this does not happen until the breech face has already moved forward far enough to begin chambering a round, which jams under the striker nose as it slides up the breech face.

Even it you first lock the slide back before inserting a magazine and releasing the slide to chamber, the striker is going to be forward and will likely cause the cartridge rim to jam underneath the striker nose.
The PROPER way to ready your striker fired pistol for action is "retrain" yourself to always do a full slide rack before inserting a magazine - not rack to lock back, but a FULL SLIDE RACK which will of course capture the striker sear behind the trigger sear, thus retracting the striker nose and eliminating the potential for a striker feed jam.

This applies to ALL striker fired pistols. I can only imagine how many shooters have experienced a first-round feed stoppage because the manufacturer doesn't point this out in their manual, and I daresay, few "experts" are even aware. To the untrained eye a striker feed stoppage can easily be interpreted as a common feed path stoppage, or even a magazine problem, and of course, clearing the gun by locking back the slide resets the striker, so on the next go at chambering everything works as it should.