OK- so what type of ammo do you prefer to carry in your M&P 10mm 2.0 for self defense (two-legged variety)? For a couple of years I've been using SIG V-Crown 180gr HPs, but recently picked up some HoneyBadger 115gr to try. I did a little research on this Black Hills ammo, and it's got some pretty impressive test results. I don't believe that this ammo is just hype, but was hoping for some positive feedback and reinforcement from the Forum. This stuff ain't cheap, so I'd like to know that it performs as advertised. Fortunately I've never been in a position to have to use deadly force, and hope that I never will be. My M&P 10mm has performed flawlessly (600+ rounds) so I have no reservations about using it...but I'd like to know that the ammo is just as dependable.

Attached Images

	IMG_0780.jpg (69.2 KB, 43 views)
	IMG_0779.jpg (63.4 KB, 41 views)
	IMG_0317.jpg (119.3 KB, 36 views)

180 Federal HST or 180 Winchester Ranger T-Series in 40s&w. Does the same thing 180 SIG V-Crown JHP does in a small, lighter, more conceable package with less recoil and cheaper ammo.

Winchester Silvertips 175-grain is always a good choice.

I am skeptical of projectiles at the ends of the weight spectrum for something as critical as self-defense. Reliability is #1, #2 and #3 in the order of priorities.
Let time prove the Honey Badger. I suspect it will wither like so many gimmick loads. Modern terminal ballistics show that velocity does not become a game changer till ~2,200 fps.
The Silvertip, for example, is proven. I suggest you stay with the V-Crown, itself a good load.
It does not matter that your gun ran with 600 other loads, you will need to put a lot of a new ammo through your gun to prove it. It's expensive business, proving new ammo.

Very true. Ballistics tests in gelatin can show comparative characteristics of different rounds in that medium. That's not necessarily the same as real world results. A late friend and gun scribe and instructor used the term "observed reality" when discussing what he would trust to defend himself with. He was sometimes accused of being behind the latest developments but he wasn't...he waited for consistent, documented real world results before committing himself to something "new and improved".

I believe that's a good way to look at it...especially when it involves defending your life.

I’ve just started down this path myself. I’ve gotten a few different factory loadings locally. WWB and S&B 180gr FMJ, Gold Dot 200gr JHP, and Federal 200gr HST, oh and some Nosler 200gr JHP as well. I’ll be testing these first for reliability, then for group size. I figure I’ll be going with a JHP for most use, but will get some Underwood and Buffalo Bore and Hornady to test at some point.

I guess you can tell, I’m leaning towards the more traditional heavier projectiles.

When it comes to self defense rounds, I get all of my 10mm from Underwood.
I typically use the 180 grain JHP @ 1300fps or the 155 grain JHP at 1500fps.
Been happy with them.

Whatever fits in the gun and goes BANG when you pull the trigger.

__________________
S&W Accumulator

Still carrying vcrowns in mine.

I handload my 10mm ammo. I use the Hornady 155 gn XTP with a healthy dose of Power Pistol & set it off with a Winchester primer.

It’s proven to be the most accurate loading for my Glock 29. Nothing factory produced ever made the cut.

I’ve been carrying this combo for about 20+ years now and so far the most dangerous thing I’ve used it on was a really pissed off wild boar. Dropped it in its tracks with a single head shot while it was charging me. It weighed 252 lbs.

If it’ll drop raging bacon on the hoof , tweeker Bob don’t stand a chance.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

This. A plus for me is BMCM suggests this ammo for my, by him, converted 4013.

One of the upsides of 10mm is it having enough oomph behind it that even older JHP designs like the the Winchester Silvertip reliably expand. Heck, that even includes the old Federal Hydra-Shok that's basically a .40 S&W load in a longer case.

That being said, some of the lighter for caliber bullets (155 gr and under) can exhibit penetration that's on the shallow side of FBI specs. The hunting focused bullets (hardcast, Federal Trophy Bonded, etc) could be a sketchy choice for self defense due to over penetration risk, but I wouldn't worry about self-defense JHPs that go a bit deeper than the FBI 12-18" recommendation. Plenty of big city trauma nurses can tell you about finding 9mm FMJ bullets (~24" of gel penetration) that went through a torso and got stopped by clothing on the other side.

I hear you about the 155, but sometimes hard hitting reduced penetration potential makes sense for the situation.

That's why I use Underwood 180 (1300fps) or 155 (1500fps) XTP JHP depending on the situation.
Even this gel test of Underwood 155 XTP JHP penetrates 12.5" through heavy clothing and 13" through a T-shirt.

180gr 10mm XTP Underwood penetrated 16" and expanded to .64" using a Glock 20 with it's 4.61" barrel in Tools&Targets testing of it on his channel....

Lucky Gunner has 180gr 40s&w Federal HST penetrating to 18.5" with .72" expansion out of a 3.43" barreled Glock 27....

^^^^^This. Saw a suicide wherein a Federal 115 grain +P+ JHP went through the upper palate, brain, and stopped just peeking through the top of the decedent's skull. I want 40 caliber or larger, 900 fps or more, and .15 or greater sectional density or more regardless of 'superior new manufacturing techniques.'

This begs a question.
A 180gr 10mm XTP JHP Underwood in a Glock 20 has a muzzle velocity of about 1250fps, 624 ft lbs energy, penetrates 16", and expands to .64".

A 180gr 40s&w Federal HST in a Glock 27 has a muzzle velocity of about 975fps, 380 ft lbs energy, penetrates 18.5", and expands to .72".

QUESTION: IF both of these tests were done under EQUAL conditions, WHERE did the higher amount of energy of the 10mm XTP JHP Underwood go?

Assuming all else being equal, must have been in the bullet expansion itself. XTP may need absorb/more energy expanding than the HST. IF that isn't it, must not be equal test.

Hawg Rider Do you have a shot timer ? There are also apps to use but assuming you have other handguns in 9mm , 40sw & 45 or others you may have test your self to see how split times & accuracy of the 10mm loads you think are all that compare to other defensive cartridges in handguns you could carry .

Just remember No typical handgun cartridges is a sure fire one shot man stopper so pick a ammo that your both fast and accurate enough with a bullet that works very- A zone only hits count .

Might be you find a standard velocity load ends up your best personal defensive choice .

Check the ballistics test results for 10mm ammo here: https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/10m...tic-gel-tests/

I suspect the brands tested are those they carry, but clicking on the product name will let you compare your Badger or Underwood offerings.

When I saw the 10mm XTP JHP didn't expand as much or penetrate as deeply, yet had significantly more velocity, it made me suspect the test couldn't have been an all things equal test medium.

If you Google 2016/2017 joint agency ballistics test and click the first result, they test several offerings in several pistol calibers. Tests show results in expansion, penetration, MV, ME, and average failure rate for bullet type. May be a good place to start. Based on the test, one of the biggest causes for concern with the faster cartridges, was the bullet expanding too quickly and fragmenting. That said, if i were to run hollow point ammo for self defense, I would go with something on the heavier side. I run the Underwood extreme defender(.45) which uses the same Lehigh bullets as the honey badger ammo. Never tried the 10mm version, but the 40 in the same 115gr is pretty accurate out of my shield40

__________________
Please no more EZs...

I like a 180 grain at 1250fps for everything in my M&P 4" 10mm and it shoots to point of aim with my sights and is very accurate. I shoot mostly Sig ammo but I think the point of using a more powerful round like the 10mm is that bullet design and performance shouldn't matter as much with human stopping power as with the less powerful calibers.

Terminal ballistics have shown that handgun cartridges do not have as big a stopping power difference from one load to the next as one would imagine.

That said, for large creatures, whether a boar, bear or 500 lb. thug you definitely need significant penetration to get past the shoulder shield, deep muscle or blubber mass.

I'm gonna soften what I said about the Honey Badger load.
The Lehigh bullets with their radial flutes are looking like they may be a good choice. The HB looks quite similar.

I stand by my thoughts on very light or heavy projectiles, especially in a self-loading gun.
Also, would have to see how that bullet shape cycled. It seems the bullet profile presented to the ramp could vary with the cartridge orientation.

While the 'Illinois State Police load' 9BPLE was considered a pretty effective round in it's day, it tended to exhibit fairly shallow penetration like most 115gr 9mm hollow points that actually expand (and in 9BPLE's case, fragment/shed weight). When I did some unscientific ballistics testing with milk jugs filled with water, 9BPLE violently fragmented in the first jug, and didn't even dent the back of a third, retaining only 52.5 grains of the initial 114.2 grain weight. Mind you, that was just hitting thin plastic and water, not bone.

I suspect that a lot of the effectiveness was assisted by a couple of factors:

1: The agency noted for using it had higher training standards than most municipal departments. This probably also enhanced the reputation of .357 Magnum, which was more commonly issued by State Police departments than municipal police.

2: The psychological aspect of getting shot with a round with a lot of muzzle flash and blast. I think it was Darryl Bolke who said on a Primary & Secondary podcast that CA did a study on .357 Magnum effectiveness back in the 1980s. If you look at gel tests, the famed 125 JHP doesn't do anything magical. CA found that the 'one shot stops' were disproportionately at night, relatively close range, and from 4" or shorter barrels. Bad guys who survived commonly reported hearing the blast and seeing the flash, then realizing that they'd been shot

"The last thing I remember, doc... Was a BLAST! & a FLASH!

Then I realized I was shot!"

Cheers!

P.S. I like the 155gr XTP @ around 1350 fps... Lehigh 140gr @ 1300 also works well!

__________________
Sit Reloader Sentiret

My qualms about 155gr 10mm are that penetration is usually on the shallow end of FBI specs at 12-14", which is pretty easily achieved by the 9mm 115gr JHP that expand like they're supposed to.

1" of gel penetration is not directly equivalent to 1" of penetration in a body. Even if were, if you shoot at someone with outstretched arms holding a gun/knife/etc at an angle, you might need to penetrate several inches of arm before it reaches the torso. Now, if you hit the forearm holding the weapon with a 155 gr 10mm JHP, you've probably functionally destroyed their ability to pull a trigger. If you've hit the support arm, then probably not.

The way that adrenaline/threat identification work, it's not that unusual for guns/hands with guns to get shot in gunfights. I know a police sergeant who won a gunfight with an armed robber (just paroled a few months earlier, of course) by hitting him with three rounds of Winchester Ranger Bonded 230 GR .45 ACP from a 5" XD45. One round hit the robber in the upper thigh, one in the abdomen, and one hit the gun hand, severing a finger and blowing apart the pistol's polymer frame.

I've been in an actual gunfight at 9pm at night that I briefly spoke about on another forum in the past. I don't recall seeing a flash, my ears weren't ringing even though I didn't have ear protection on (obviously), and all I remember was the gunshot sound from their gun. I don't recall seeing the flash from my gun either.

While where you put the bullet if far more important than the stuff being discussed here-assuming adequate penetration- I'll offer the following:

When we used custom loaded ammunition in our issue 1006's, they came with 180 gr XTPs. Hornady meant it when they put the Xtreme Penetration label on the bullet. I'd avoid any ammo with that bullet. If there's a brick/concrete wall near your opponent, they can act as an indirect fire projectile and shower them with shrapnel.

The Sierra 180 gr JHP OTOH, expands exceptionally well yet provides good penetration. If you can find something using that bullet, go for it. Sierra developed Sig's V crown, so that might be a good choice.

Having used some previous supercalifragalistic bullet designs in vermin control, I'd let someone else do the beta testing on any magic bullet design when you're betting your butt. I've read interesting comments on the fluted bullet design when fired from a RIFLE at pigs. That isn't the same as defending yourself with a pistol.

All the test media reports I've read include a caution that the test results are NOT predictive of real world results.

As noted above, the difference between most pistol rounds is not significant most of the time. A pistol is what one has because they do not expect a problem; if you have reason to suspect a problem, you should be elsewhere if possible, and using a long gun with which you are proficient if not.

The ergonomics of the pistol you carry are important. If it is hard to use because of ergonomics, you probably need something else. I include the ability to see and use the sights in this; as I get older the options become narrower and the importance greater.

Then - what ammo you use must ALWAYS work in your pistol. If FMJ is all that works in your pistol, carry that, although I don't think anything round is a good idea. Adequate ballistic performance may mean studying Dr. Roberts' test results for your caliber and then buying at least 1000 rounds (case lots) and having 500 reliable rounds through your pistol. if you need to clean in 500 rounds to maintain reliability, there is something very wrong. (If your AR can't go at least 10000 rounds without cleaning but with generous lube, fix or dispose of it. It is too flawed to rely upon.)

In most pistol calibers (including those calibers in revolvers), I stick with rounds shown to perform within adequate results in Roberts' testing. In revolver rounds, I tend to go full dinosaur and carry SWC. For example, in my M66, most of what I carry and qualify with (LEOSA) is .38 SWC. I can and have qualified with 145 grain Silvertips, but the placement and shot to shot recovery are far better with the SWC.

The best defense is doing your best to make it unappealing and a lot of work to try to victimize you, which is why I advocate lights, fencing and big dogs at home. They not only discourage most, but provide good evidence (remember, I am a prosecutor and have lived in courtrooms) that when you use force on someone, they pushed you to that. Would I use a pistol at home or work? Sure. I have one on or near me just about all the time. Is an AR or shotgun far better? Yes.

__________________
NHI, 10-8.