Nobody suggested not defending yourself. When the police are two minutes away, you have the option of taking an armed-defensive position, rather than going on the attack.

The cops will be drawing chalklines around dead bodies. The average violent encounter in the home lasts about 30 seconds.

__________________
Bob | KM4DEO
Sport | Glock 22

And that is? Would it be an overriding factor for a homeowner and home defense?

With a proper ammo choice 223 penetrates less in common residential or office construction materials than does 12 gauge buckshot.

Curious what the police are using?

I suppose if you're comparing OO buck to a 50 grain JHP that would be true. Sub in #4 buck and compare it to 62 grain M855 and suddenly the shotgun penetrates less.

Any load worth using against a human adversary is going to penetrate stuff.

Shotguns offer up-front-power-right-now that a semi auto carbine can never duplicate in one shot. Follow up shots lean the scale towards favoring a carbine.

Hence the caveat "with proper ammo choice".

I think so.

Of course it's prudent to be thoughtful of what's beyond the target... but if a bad guy breaks into my home thinking he's safe wearing a USA Gypsum vest he's in for a surprise.

There has been a number of tests proving that a handgun round will penetrate more layers of sheetrock than a .223 HP will. why do you think the majority of SWAT/entry teams have switched from SMG's to AR's? As far as shotguns go, I personally witnessed a man get shot in the shoulder with a load of #6 shot while walking a pheasant line. The distance was about 20 yards and he was wearing thermals, a hoodie, a BDU jacket and a orange safety vest. It shredded the vest and the jacket. But most of the pellets stayed in the hoodie and the thermals. He had 6 pellets in his shoulder and 2 in his upper arm. He went to his doctor later that day and was fixed up fine. That is not the kind of protection power I want when it means keeping my wife and myself alive. I still remember the firing range Gunny saying "a pistol is what you use to fight with until you get to your rifle".
I'm embarrassed to admit that I had a ND while clearing a carry 1911. The 230FMJ went through the front and rear of a dresser drawer, through the back of the dresser, through 2 layers of sheetrock and a hollow core door. Then it passed through my back bathroom and through 2 more layers of sheetrock into the closet that contained my HVAC unit and my water heater (luckily it didn't hit anything expensive). Then it went through 2 more layers of sheetrock and ended up on the floor in my front bathroom. So much for even a subsonic pistol round not over penetrating.

That is why birdshot is for birds, not two legged vermin.

But at rooms length with the same load,would the results be somewhat different?

__________________
I'm just here for the guns.

Viper MD, another user on this board, has seen real world results with various sizes of shot. I'll let him comment, if he sees this thread. However, for more reliable penetration, I stay with 00 buck.

Birdshot at 30yds.... this is in any way something to consider regarding home defense? I suppose if you were in a Alfred Hitchcock movie....

That's what I was thinking.30 yards and all that clothing versus 7 yards without the extra layers.I would think birdshot at 7-10 yards would discourage most.Inside most homes I would think even closer range.Just curious for other's thoughts.

__________________
I'm just here for the guns.

Handguns and long guns both have a potential place in home defense, and *I* am reading this thread as specifically discussing long gun selection , so I'm not discussing handguns.

*I* also interpeded this thread as specifically IF an AR-15 could have viable usage, so I won't go too far into what is the "Best-est" .

(Presuming 5.56 cal , and (the prudent) usage of M193 type 55gr ammo ( or lesser ). A whole bunch of testing shows that M193 penetrates LESS * in common interior wall construction * than most common SD/ Duty handgun ammo. And I have never seen any publish ( or leaked from credible sources ) testing showing the reverse. Yes , it's counter intuitive , and flys in the face of a couple decades of common assumptions, but it is what it is. So no reason too avoid an AR on that count.

We can argue till the cows come how about how many angels can dance on each pellet of buckshot , but M193 will have close range stopping power at least as much as typical handgun, so no reason to avoid an AR on that count.

An AR of 16-18in configuration ( give or take length of flash hider ) is similar or shorter than common SD/ Duty shotguns, so no reason to avoid an AR on that count.

Admittedly , the main advantages of an AR from Millitary or LE viewpoint ( long-ish range , high capacity will *usually* not be required in Home Defense , but having capabilities not called into play doesn't detract anything either.

Biggfoot's Bottom Line = If you LIKE an AR-15 , shoot it particularily well , or it's your only suitable long gun , by all means use one.

[ It's not my personal first choice, nor my default recomendation to newbies, but I won't often try to talk anyone out of one. I'm me , you're you , YMMV. ]

I originally posted 30 yards. But as I added a story of my own negligence, the more I thought about it, 90 feet was a bit much (it happened in the 70's) 20 yards is more like it. Sorry.

The shotgun ammo issue won't die.

I have an inherited faith in pattern density.

I also frequently get flack for liking various handgun/ rifle rounds that work well in real life , but don't penetrate to some arbitrary distance in testing.

Even with all that , birdshot was waaaay too little penetration. 1-2inches of penetration at 5-ish yards is grossly inadaquate. If "close" means 5-7 inches that would change the situation, but that's not a realistic parameter.

For the proverbial * ok for lightly clothed across a room , but marginal for multi layer winter clothes or longer distances * , that is describing #4 Buckshot .

Apply your best judgement to your personal situation to choose between 4B thru 000B . I will point out that tight patterning , low recoil buckshot is commonly found in 00B , and rare in any other size.

A number of people I respect with extensive personal real world experience swear by Foster style 12ga slugs for all defensive/ duty usage, and I'm not going to try to tell them they're wrong.

I can see your point. In my house, the plan for a night time "boogie man" surprise is to take up a defensive posture in my master bedroom with my wife by my side (no children). The distance from the point at which all three entry doors would converge for them to come down the hall is 40 feet from my bedroom. That's a little further than I would feel comfortable with bird shot.

The longest possible shot inside my house is 20 feet. That particular distance is an extremely unlikely situation. So, anything that will be effective at 15 feet or so will do just fine.

I'm a regular Trap shooter. Therefore, I have plenty of bird/target sized shot shells. Even at that short a distance, I wouldn't trust them to effectively stop a threat. You see, I don't want to discourage the invader, I want him stopped.

__________________
Freedom isn't free.

30 yards is a third of a football field or decent outdoor range. That's a long way to be defending oneself from a violent adversary unless it's a large carnivorous creature. For HD/SD purposes, 10'-30' is a much more practical distance to practice within.

__________________
I'm with the banned ...

This. Yes, birdshot will make a fantastic looking wound. 1-2 inches deep. This will be painful. But will it stop an attacker immediately? Maybe, maybe not. In life/death situations, adrenaline gets dumped into your blood stream. One effect is it suppresses pain; to the point even very significant injuries can be ignored (in the short term, to be dealt with later).

You really want something that is going to cause the attacker to stop out of necessity, not choice. Inflicting pain is of the later type - that is the attack can continue if the attacker chooses to fight through the pain. They may decide that the pain is too much, or not worth it, or whatever and stop/flee. Certain street drugs or help from their own body (adrenaline dump) can influence how they feel about it, and maybe they continue in trying to end you. But they have a choice. Do you really want to leave them with that choice?

Inciting rapid vital systemic failure is going to stop the attack, period. The attacker will be unable to carry on the attack because they are physically unable to do so, regardless of if they want to continue or not - they've got no choice in the matter. Bringing on that kind of certain stop to an attack - shutting down vital systems (nervous, circulatory, respiratory) is going to take more than bird shot. Those vital systems are well protected and you need adequate penetration into the body cavity to shut them down and end the attack with certainty.

If you discharge your firearm to make a statement - such as "stop attacking me", make it a demand and not a request.

__________________
686/M&P9 Pro/M&P15X/M&P15-22

Here's some numbers to chew on; I find it easy to get lost in diameters so I quickly calculated square inches of lead in various loads. (Square inches being their area.)

0.77 sq. inches: 9 pellets of OO buckshot
0.98 sq. inches: 20 pellets of #3 buckshot
0.04 sq. inches: 1 round of 5.56 in expanded
0.16 sq. inches: 1 round of 5.56 if it miraculously expands to double its diameter. (0.448")

This completely ignores the ballistics of a 5.56 M193 or M855 bullet when it enters a body. They don't expand, miraculously or otherwise. They tumble (actually they swap ends and proceed big end first) and create a huge internal wound while tumbling, and they fragment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50_3Yyo0Nt0

__________________
Bob | KM4DEO
Sport | Glock 22

Take a look at this video. Start watching at about 7 minutes in to see results of 3 different .223 rounds fired through 4 layers of denim, pork ribs and into a pork shoulder (so we see real results of clothing and rib cage penetration and into soft tissue). The wound cavities are impressive and not for the weak stomach. It might surprise you what happens inside a body once the bullet makes that 0.04 sq. inch hole...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Aq3INocE28

__________________
686/M&P9 Pro/M&P15X/M&P15-22

Not much shotgun ammo? Seriously?

This is how it looks year round down here. This is Sportsman Warehouse. Two isles about 30ft long piled high.
Probably 80% bird/target, but there's plenty of buckshot. And lots of clays too.

Attached Images

	IMG_0126.jpg (144.7 KB, 31 views)
	IMG_0132.jpg (169.5 KB, 29 views)

Thanks, Rastoff, for the interesting thread! Lots of opinions....

Mine? I've always viewed home defense as a 3 gun event......

Rifle like device of choice? Itty bitty AK. Yup, over penetration might be an issue, but if I need to use it, I need to use it.

I would like to see some penetration tests on 7.62 by 39 light sporting loads.....haven't seen much that is definitive.

__________________
Even older, even crankier....

Apples to oranges. Waywatcher was talking about 5.56 and this video is about .223...two rounds that are pretty different once you get past bullet diameter.

__________________
Bob | KM4DEO
Sport | Glock 22

Not really, and certainly not in this context. The 5.56 and .223 rounds are interchangeable in terms of AR's. I didn't find posting up the size of holes in square inches to be an honest entry into the discussion, since that is NOT the whole story. AR's are not limited to 5.56 ammo, so just because Waywatcher chose that designation over .223 does not make my post and accompanying video an invalid piece of information to consider.

__________________
686/M&P9 Pro/M&P15X/M&P15-22

Not often enough to be counted on working when you need it--and even when it does, sometimes it begins tumbling after 7" or more of soft tissue travel.



The best bullets in 5.56 do expand--such as 50 grain TSX, 64 grain Nosler Bonded (FBI load), 62 grain TBBC, etc.

Also, .223 vs 5.56 is like Red Delicious vs Honeycrisp apples, not "apples to oranges."

There are places around here with similar displays. Their least expensive target shot shells are $9/box. So, yeah, it's around, but I'm not paying those prices.

I guess the days of $5/box of target shells are gone.

__________________
Freedom isn't free.

I don't know about target shells, but if anyone needs HD ammo they can buy a lifetime supply here. 12 Gauge | SGAmmo.com

Yeah, I haven't seen it that cheap in a while. Even for really cheap stuff like Estate.

It's $6.99 a box for Remington gun clubs at bass pro near me, and online.

They're what I like to run in my Auto 5 to shoot skeet. I think I'll get the ole auto 5 out this weekend and sling some clay birds at the farm. I found a pretty stock with a good pad on it. Easier on the shoulder.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

The purpose of these rounds (the bonded referred to above) is to defeat barriers, ie, hold together when going through auto glass and sheet metal, or building materials. That may make them "best" for law enforcement, but they aren't what I would consider best for HD.

If I am going for the AR in a home defense situation, I have a mag loaded with a 55 gr frangible to start with, and then (as if I'd ever need more than one mag) my own Mk 262 copycat load with a 75 gr. OTM.

(A little info on the Mk 262 here: The Best 5.56 Load: The Black Hills MK 262 Mod 1 - Shooting Times)

I chose the 55 gr specifically for it's reduced ability to penetrate walls. The 75 gr load is better in terms of defeating barriers, but still not as good as the bonded ammo referenced above. But that's OK for my needs. If I really need to shoot through things my 590 with Brenneke KO slugs will do that job quite well.

As has been posted, you can't really compare the wounding mechanism of 5.56/.223 with handgun or shotgun rounds. Velocity is the key for 5.56/.223 to work well; they yaw and fragment, creating a large permanent wound cavity.

Here's a couple of articles about AR ammo I found interesting. They are more about the failures of 5.56 in military engagements, but they have a fair amount of information on the wounding mechanism and effects of 5.56.

http://wstiac.alionscience.com/pdf/WQV8N1_ART01.pdf
http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2008Intl/Roberts.pdf

At close range, not shooting through barriers, I would have complete faith in my AR to get the job done with the ammo I have. I would NOT use M855, it's designed to go through light armor at extended ranges, and it'll zip right through a lot things at close range.

ETA Good info on the Federal and Speer LE ammo here: http://le.atk.com/wound_ballistics/l...omparison.aspx

__________________
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

From my training and applications, pistols are a last line of defense. Also, the numbers don't lie. Handguns don't put people down... rifles/shotguns do.

I know some tacticool people like to take issue with the concept of "point in the general direction and pull the trigger" for a shotgun. They want people to put more thought into it. That's fine for someone not used to the firearm. However, I don't need to think about it, too much. Because its what I always grabbed and used. Its what I trained with and made sure I could shoot the dang thing with my eyes closed (blatant exaggeration alert). Especially in a shipboard environment with steel everywhere. Aiming down a p-way, you're going to hit, whatever you're shooting at.

I can pick up my shotgun, shoot from the hip and hit a man-size target every time, out to 50 yds (granted, that's also stationary), 00 buck. From the 1st shot to the last. That is the ultimate HD weapon, right there. I know people will debate until their face is blue, but I'm right.

In a home situation, where that distance is 40' maximum, down a hallway, 175 lumen strobe blinding/disorienting their heads... I like my chances.

Next up, would probably be my M&P. Its a tiny, little, short, 6 - 7 pnd carbine, its an extremely fast acquisition and effective firearm. Mount a good tactical light up front, laser if you please and you're set. The .223/5.56 is an excellent CQB rnd.

The only thing I use my pistol for, is CCW and if at home, its to get me to the gun safe, if the shotgun, one in the pipe, 6 in the mag... 6 on the side mount (its out and ready to go - always) isn't going to be enough.

__________________
30 Characters 4 Rent.

If you have a Bass Pro in your area they have Remington target shells on sale for $5

The nearest Bass Pro is about 120 miles away. The savings kinda gets eaten up in the gas. Thanks for the heads up anyway.

__________________
Freedom isn't free.

m&p15t with (2) 30 5.56 PMAGS (w/ coupler) in case it's a ninja

As much as I like my m&p15 I wouldn't use it as first defense weapon unless some serious massive zombi attacks Otherwise it is my Sig P226 .40S&W with HP ammo and my Remington 870 with birdshots are near to me every night and ready to shot.
But I believe it would be interesting experience to use my m&p 15 and Saiga 7.62x39 for serious home attack prevention or stopping some criminals with it, I would say it is my second defense level option. Both are pretty powerful weapons and I wouldn't joke about.

__________________
Guns ...

These numbers are relatively meaningless as they don't account for velocity and energy.

By the way, my HD weapon of choice would probably be my G19 loaded with Gold Dot 124gr +p only because it is the weapon I carry most often and the weapon nearest to me when in bed. The AR would be my second choice since it would be most likely harder to get to, followed by my shotgun. If all things were equal (which isn't the case in the real world) then I would choose the AR first.

Not that bad; down 138 to Phelan, switch over to either 395 to the 15, or the backroads direct to the 15. Rancho Cucamonga. About 50 miles, and an easy drive if you head out early.

If I have to pick and have the option?? Shotgun. Reach around the corner, and send you a little something special to remember me by..... Confront you head on...... We will paint the walls together. I'll use the Mossberg brush, you can be the paint can. In the interest of putting a helluva lot of volume in the perp, and having a cross-activity use ammo, I am kinda fond of 3" goose loads; tungsten T shot. We threw an old leather jacket (Heavy style) over a trash can. And from about 10 yards, let one fly. I was pleasantly convinced....... it will do the job with amazing knock-down power, healthy penetration, and I already have 3 boxes of the stuff, so it's kind of a no brainer.
I agree with almost all points; very well explained by folks who have a pretty good idea of what would likely happen.
I will say: I have been shot at 15 yards with #7-1/2 shot while quail hunting. It HURTS. And..... the shooter was a friend, and he had the pleasure of fishing 40 or so pellets out of my shoulder and back. (Beer and aspirin for the field surgery was the call of the day. No more shooting, we had had enough. But the beer and aspirin??? Better choice than getting shot!)
I have also been legitimately involved in 2 shooting scenarios. Both times, I carried a 9504. And IMO, Hydra-Shock ammo is very effective, but the penetration was moderate. But the hit power was basically enough to stop the situation. I am confident that it would not over-penetrate were you to open up and let fly, and not make a good hit. If you DO hit your target? 9mm is going to lose its' steam, and it might make it thru an arm, or a soft body side, but it will be out of gas.
If I were sending an AR round? I'd use a common hunting round like a soft point 62gr, or a ballistic tip. Not really a frangible fan; if the perp has a heavy jacket on, he's going to be VERY sore, and not too likely to continue pressing the issue with you..... but he WOULD walk away unless you hit the CNS cleanly. Better a hunting round with a little weight behind it, coupled with good expansion properties. A much better choice than the hard ammos like XM193 or 855. Both will zip right thru easily and keep on going if there is no hard contact made with bone. I saw it in real time, years and years ago. Bang-zip, bad guy still moving and fighting, while leaking pretty good. Got tired and sore, and was overtaken and subdued. (Not by me. I was only a spectator of sorts.) All he received for his trouble was a couple stitches. No full blown surgery needed. So keep this in mind.

Those numbers quantify exactly how much 'hole' each load makes. You can disregard if you like, but they are not meaningless. In fact, some would argue that how much 'hole' you make is more important than energy.

Well, that's true, but I generally avoid the most dangerous road in the US if possible. It makes more sense for me to head down the 395 from the 58. Still a long drive for me. A lot further than 50 miles.

__________________
Freedom isn't free.

I've never really liked "the size of the hole" argument. This mostly stems from talking to my ER buddies (nurses) who consistently claim that you can't tell the difference in holes from handgun bullets with the naked eye. If you think about it, the difference between 9mm/.380 (.355"), and .38 special and .357 mag (.357" ) is hundredths of an inch and the difference is not perceptible as a hole in your skin; with .45 (.455") being only 1/10th of an inch in diameter larger and -again- indistinguishable from the other calibers listed. Yet, we all know that .357 magnum and 9mm are very different rounds yielding different results as far as stopping power.

I would argue that the size of the hole is the LEAST important thing to consider, and that what happens once inside the body cavity is exponentially more relevant. As a final example I submit .22lr (.223") and 5.56mm (.224") leaving identical holes. Do they produce even remotely similar results? The size of the hole, while not being completely irrelevant, is the least relevant of properties to consider IMO. IF hole size were that important, we'd all be shooting .50 cal...

__________________
686/M&P9 Pro/M&P15X/M&P15-22

Diameters of circles can be misleading, because as is well known, the area equals half the diameter squared, times pi.

What this means is that the seemingly small "1/10th of an inch" difference in diameters going from 9mm to .45 actually results in a whopping 60% bigger hole with a .45 (0.10 sq. in. versus 0.16 sq. in.).

.223 bullets that fail to yaw or fail to expand do produce wounds similar to .22lr. See above graphic posted by me.

Really though, this is all academic. More holes is better than less holes, and bigger holes are better than small holes.

Yes, but I believe that it is the % in this application that is misleading. Unless you think 6/100ths of a square inch is somehow significant (.10 sq. in. vs .16).

No. Just no. Placement is more important than number of holes, and bigger holes (in context) are not better (as a statement of fact). Entry hole does in no way reflect end result of the wound, or even wound channel/cavity.

__________________
686/M&P9 Pro/M&P15X/M&P15-22

People fighting house to house in Afghanistan don't worry about over penetration. A guy let off a 9mm pistol in his apartment and it went through two walls in my Bro in law's apartment, with two kids inside.

Without some frangible type of bullet I would never use an AR by choice in a home defense situation. We don't live on ranches like Lucas McCain who can fire a rifle in any direction without even thinking about hitting somebody.

When I grew up a kid was arrested for sitting on his porch and shooting at the neighbors doors with a .22. He didn't think it was penetrating the doors.

I'll take the hole puncher that makes 60% bigger holes; everything else being equal, thanks.

I never said placement wasn't important. Making holes is clearly the entire purpose of our handheld metal flingers. The end that this serves is up to the user. When making hits, additional holes, and making the holes bigger is so clearly superior, I'm not sure what we are really arguing about? Two hits to the chest are better than one, a single hit with a .50 is better than a single hit with a 9mm.

Of course it is vitally important that a person can make hits with their handheld metal flinger. I never said it wasn't. I think a person should try a bunch and choose the ones that work for them. I have.

All things being equal, I will take the one with the highest potential of energy transfer.

All things being equal, I'll take a single relatively low energy...22 LR say...between the eyes (figuratively. Don't talk about how hard the skull is) over a feww high energy hits to hands, feet, etc.

I'm more interested in where the hit is than in what the hit is with. That is why I bought an AR in the first place instead of that .50 y'all talk about.

That...and $7.00 every time I pull the trigger...
http://www.luckygunner.com/50-cal-bm...nady-10-rounds

__________________
Bob | KM4DEO
Sport | Glock 22

I'm simply representing the thought that bigger entry holes aren't inherently better. While a single .50 is going to be better than a single 9mm, a single .45 has no reliable chance of better stopping power than 9mm, particularly with similar self defense ammo.

Do you really want to take the line you've drawn that .223 and .22lr are so similar, but a .45 is vastly preferable to 9mm over clinging to the "bigger hole is better" theory?

__________________
686/M&P9 Pro/M&P15X/M&P15-22