Admin Edit-
Cross posting is frowned upon, but I'm putting this up in 3 forums- Ammo, Lounge, and M&P15.
We want to get the word out.
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ATF is considering a ban on SS109 ammo!
("Green Tip" 5.56mm NATO aka M855)

It was originally exempted from the Armor Piercing ban because it was a rifle cartridge with a legitimate sporting use, i.e. target shooting.

With the availability of AR type handguns, this ammo is now endangered under the ban on armor piercing handgun ammo!

See the complete document here-
http://www.atf.gov/sites/default/fil...g_purposes.pdf

ATF will carefully consider all comments, as appropriate, received on or before March 16, 2015

Submit comments in any of three ways (but do not submit the same comments multiple times or by more than one method)

ATF website - [email protected] Follow the instructions for submitting comment

Fax: (202) 648-9741

Mail:
Denise Brown Attn: AP Ammo Comments
Mailstop 6N-602 - Office of Regulatory Affairs
BATFE
99 New York Avenue
Washington, DC 2022

PLEASE comment, but keep it reasonable, folks.
Cussing them out will NOT help us!

I don't like the gubment stepping on us with more dumb rules...but at the same time there are way better ammo options out there than SS109.

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M&P's and K Frames Pleeze!

Even though I don't fire SS109 green tip, it won't stop me from submitting my comment. Give them an inch, and they'll take a mile. They've done this over and over again. ATF & Executive Orders = an affront to democracy and the republic. Let's just make rules without any oversight.

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-John

While I agree with you, how long before they go after the other ammo options as not having a "sporting purpose"?

I also saw that a ban on magazines with a capacity higher than 10 has been introduced in Congress again.

The XM855 has now become the new 22lr. For Poop and giggles, I've looked at some places for the xm855 and its either sold out or on back order. Checking gunbroker, $346 for 420 round can that was dropping in price as lil as $160. The sheeple are creating their own panic now.

Anyone remember in the early 1970's that Winchester came out with an AP round in .357? It was copper plated over ???????. It had a pointed nose.
It came in a 50 round box. I recall it was not very accurate and we carried it in some of our duty revolvers to take out engine blocks if needed.

They want to ban my M855?

Those idiots must stay awake all night dreaming up stuff to ban...

I guess ill have to dig a hole and burry all of it along with my .22LR and 33rd Glock mags.

Possession is legal, by statute. You won't be able to buy the ammo or bullets in the future.
Plain language reading of the statutes made this proposed ruling inevitable, IMO, notice this stuff stayed legal by regulatory exemption. Suggest writing congressman to amend the laws.

On gunbroker, someone paid $436 for a 420 round can of XM855. Unbelievable what the word "BAN" in a sentence can do to a product.

A dollar a round... right on man!

They're turning my ammo into green tip gold....

You give them a open door and they put their foot in, then they drag their self all way through and once they do that and lock it, we are doomed.

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NRA member since 1974

I still have a couple of boxes that my dad bought. We used to use it to bust old motors at his garage for entertainment. Bust a short block all to heck.

I'm saving them for special occasions.

I'm afraid the thing a lot of people are missing here is the flag flying thing.

They're just running this up the flagpole to see who salutes. If they get away with this fairly benign and small subset, all bets are off. That's what they are up to. No doubt about it in my mind.

Did they package that in cardboard "ammo cans" because they figured that the steel penetrator round would go through the metal ones anyway?

If "sporting purpose" included target practice, they could not get away with much of this kind of administrative ban.

Unfortunately, I seem to remember that "sporting purpose" does not include target practice according to ATF.

Just why that is so is not clear.

Along with writing your representatives and ATF sign the petition.
https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/pet...ition/XrvVh1cj

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M&P9/9C/Shieldx2/Sportx2/15-22

Perhaps the irony in banning the Green tip ammo is that standard .223 ball ammo will defeat the standard issue vest without a steel or ceramic plate insert for rifle ammo .

Bad petition, IMO. Since 5.56 handguns are sold, m855 is handgun ammunition and is subject to LEOPA.

I think a better argument is: SS109 projectile has a lead core besides the hardened steel penetrator and is therefore exempt from LEOPA since the core is not solely composed of a banned material.

So what do you guys think...

Will it be banned or not?

No. I don't think it will be banned.

I concur. At the end of the day, it ain't gonna happen. Too much precedent if it does. It would be a political war sent to a republican controlled congress. The WH would see the backlash from that coming from a mile away. Yes. Even this WH.

Some battles ain't worth fighting.

On the other hand, if we lose this one, there is no telling where it goes from here unless it is stopped in its tracks in congress.

Shocker, Do you happen to know that statute. Might be a good one to print out.

COMMENT on what?? They have decided it is gone!! NOTE: Page 15 from "white paper on atf website"



ATF recognizes that this ammunition is widely available to the public. Because it is legally permissible to possess armor piercing ammunition under current law,with drawing the exemption will not place individuals in criminal possession of armor piercing ammunition.
However, with few exceptions, manufacturers will be unable to produce
such armor piercing ammunition, importers will be unable to import such ammunition, and manufacturers andimporters will be prohibited from selling or distributing the ammunition.8
******ATF is specifically soliciting comments on how it can best implement withdrawal of this exemption while minimizing disruption to the ammunition and firearm industry and maximizing officer safety*******
WE have nothing to say about it the decision has been made, the question is do you want the band aid ripped off fast or slow. atf is NOT asking for your input on whether it should stay or go!!!! Be Safe,

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I BACK OUR BLUE

Upon further review, the LEOPA doesn't seem to apply to M855 because it has a 2 piece core, one of which is not a banned material.
Anyway, I wrote my congressman. He is in the majority and is supposed to be strong on 2A rights.

I don't remember anything about "sporting purposes" mentioned in the 2nd Amendment.

"SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!"

Seems pretty *******g clear to me!

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Molon Labe!

I will send a quick note reminding my elective officials that they should cut back on this sort of nonsense and do some productive work. But, and the caveat being I don't know much about this ammo, although I'm certain I have some in my pile of 223, I wonder why we need to have armor piercing ammo? It wouldn't make me happy if I were a cop wearing a vest.

This reminds me of the Black Talon Baloney back in the early 90s. Although my roommate at the time was a surgical resident in Manhattan, and the thought of cutting his gloved hand on a bullet fragment while working on a possible aids/hepatitis p*ssed him off. True story.

With my above drivel said, are there any/many? instances were this green tip ammo was successfully used on a vest wearing member of LE?

Unfortunately you are the type of fellow they hope to reach.

It is not remotely armor piercing. It has a small mild steel tip which allows it to penetrate a tin can helmet at 600 yards, a specification set to usurp M193. The idea was enhanced range for M249 SAW light machine guns and the then new and improved M16A2 service rifle. It's optimal in a 20" barrel and has been criticized for poor or inconsistent performance since the 14.5" barreled M4 started becoming a general issue carbine.

At close ranges it relies on fragmentation for effectiveness and relies on velocity to do so. Low velocities from short barrels completely neuters the round so the entire premise of this ban is false. It is carefully worded to have the appearance of a logical argument but the ATFs entire premise is a fallacy.

I've been shooting the stuff for twenty years and it is nothing special. My rifle shoots it well so I'm usually pretty well stocked. There are both more accurate and more effective ammunition choices available.

MOST ANY rifle ammo pierces a ballistic vest, even from a short barrel. In short the BATFE is full of it.

It was inexpensive and plentiful and like all things banned call it something nasty like ARMOR PIERCING and say it'll SAVE COPS and they expect folks to let it happen.

IF the BATFE does classify this as "armor piercing", will that prevent it from being able to be used as a military NATO round? As of now, it is classified as "ball" ammunition.

I think you need to do some research- Facts: A standard 223 "hunting" round will go through a Level 2 vest, the "armor" piercing ammo can not go "further" through the vest. Second it is often more available, accurate. Third "need" armor piercing ammo?? for the same reason you "need" an AR! As for Black Talon cutting glove- I did not know any Physicians who could possibly care about Black Talon specifically, because when you put a high-medium velocity projectile into some ones chest, you get sharp broken bones, fragments of the bullet. I was a Resident @ Hackensack Medical Center in 1990, used to see the Towers each morning, ANY bullet or sharp bone can cut a glove, the only people who cared were the liberal media, anti -gunners and the uninformed masses who were fed this swill. Please check your facts, and not repeat falsehoods. No offense is meant, but if "WE" pro gunners propagate mistakes/lies how can we be trusted. Be Safe,

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I BACK OUR BLUE

The thing is, if this ban does manage to go through, since most high powered rifle ammunition can pierce through the standard IIIa vest, it won't be long before they come for the rest. Shut the door before it gets opened.

Somebody said it above already. It is going to be banned unless the BATFE changes their mind. Basically they have said its banned although we are giving "you" until that date in March to state opinions etc.

This ammo was classified almost 30 years ago as armor piercing (even though this round doesn't meet the criteria to be defined as armor piercing) but was give an exemption to the ban imposed in 1986. The BATFE is now reversing the exemption....

Some of my dates might be a bit off but that is the general idea.

To the guys writing to their Washington reps, that is where it can start as well as writing to the BATFE but ultimately the BATFE is using existing rules/laws etc. This isn't a new ban. The banning of armor piercing pistol ammo has been around for almost 30 years. They are just removing the exemption that was give to this particular ammo.

The irony is that M855 is not armor piercing and will not do anything to soft body armor that other conventional rounds will not do. If I remember correctly, the metal tip above the lead core was added to help it penetrate Soviet helmets. That is what I heard. At any rate, I can personally confirm that it does nothing to A550 plate besides throw a few sparks and leaves maybe a scratch, if you could call it that.

All one can do it try to work through the system. Maybe enough flak will go up on all sides to make them reconsider.

The law is 99-408, signed by President Ronald Reagan.
It's just 3 pages and the relevant paragraph is near the beginning.

The good news is that cast lead isnt covered. The bad news is anything containing brass or bronze, i.e., bullet jackets, could be banned if not classified as sporting purpose.

I use it STRICTLY for sporting, target shooting. Will they ban Gasoline? maybe they are thinking about the 5.7?

who you call, write, email, or yell at from the sidewalk, they are definitely gonna do it. The only reason they say they are asking for input is so they can say they did it as they are required to. Your legislator's are not gonna care. They will tell you there are plenty of other types of ammo you can buy.

This is just another small piece of their bigger plan to enslave us all. WAKE UP GUYS, IT'S JUST AROUND THE CORNER

GOOD LUCK EVERYONE.


Ned

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Devil's afraid I'll take over.

In 1968 they tried to make the NRA look like "cop haters" because they wanted "armor piercing" ammo. The ammo at that time was standard hunting ammo- no metal tip, no steel core, they tried to ban it all. Fast forward to 2014-2015---> the sig brace is legal because you can not change it's design by incorrect use-----> Then, Sig brace is still legal but you can change it's design by how you use it?????, As stated above, the ban is in effect, it is only the exemption being removed. As for LEO safety, it is just a buzz word, LE body armor is designed to protect against the officers OWN weapon, otherwise every LEO would have to wear level IIIA, plus raid vest with plates. I just weighed my vest and plates ( 18.9 pounds) and that will protect 3006 AP. I am not aware of any LEO shot with AR/AK pistol through a vest, I would like to know of any documented cases. I agree that this is part of a never ending move towards total firearms ban. Sporting use? How soon do you think it will be till "sporting use" is re-evaluated?? If the Sig brace travesty is not challenged and won, it will be open season to make 180 degree reversals uncontested, and incite more unrest. Be Safe,

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I BACK OUR BLUE

That is somewhat correct.

In the mid 80's all types of armor piercing pistol ammo were banned for "officer safety." ALL types of common rifle calibers were exempted even those used in pistols. What's stopping them from removing the "exemption" on other types of ammo or calibers from here?

Most pistols that could fire this round, at least comfortably for the shooter, and other rifle rounds are too big for typical pistol carry. Though, I haven't seen one in person, a 5.56 firearm that is registered as a pistol is still fairly large when you factor in the buffer tube, even if the barrel itself is seven inches. You're still looking at a pistol that is as long or longer than your typical one-shot rifle caliber pistol. This is just an excuse, and a poor one, being used as justification by the ATF.

This is my smallest and the kid has to throw it over his shoulder.


For me it's a really big, kinda awkward pistol:


I contacted the ATF and my state and national reps on this and other silly rules games the ATF has been playing lately. It may not do much now, but hopefully this foolishness gets on their radar.

ETA:
It may be considered a pistol but it surely ain't no handgun!

Maybe this comment was already addressed, but isn't velocity a factor in penetration? Is the velocity of M855 the same from an AR pistol as an AR rifle? Has that been tested by ATF or anyone else?

Just shoot it all up and reload for some MK. M855 doesn't stand a chance against it and it would still be legal after all the M855 dries up in the next 10-20 years.

Nothing specifically mentioned in the 2A the covers ammo possession rights either... "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed".

Sorry, but it wasn't difficult to see this coming, it happened once already with 7.62x39 ammo in 1994 when Olympic Arms produced the OA-93, which was an AR-15 based pistol chambered in 7.62x39. The owner of Olympic Arm's was more concerned about making a buck than the door it was opening for the ATF.

Frankly... I've been wondering why it's taken the ATF so long to try and do this with SS109 given the proliferation of AR15 pistols that has been taking place for many years... not to mention the availability of T/C Contender handgun barrels.

This video pretty much sums up the situation... it's a matter of the ATF running amuck... again, without any real legal grounds to back their play.

Unless sufficient push back is done, they're going to get away with it... again.

Military Arms Channel looks as BATF efforts to Ban M855 / SS109

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Conrad
SWCA #1830 SWHF #222

Velocity plays a part. Whether the velocity has dropped enough for the intent of the bullet design to not function as intended (penetrate Russian steel helmets), I don't have enough information to answer that. It is not a true armor piercing round per say like the rounds with a steel core made of some kind of hardened steel has.

H.R.3132 which became Public Law 99-408 in 1986, is what the BATF is trying to hide behind in proposing that SS109 should be banned because it is an AP round now capable of being fired from a handgun.

H.R. 3132 amended the Federal criminal code to define "armor-piercing ammunition as projectiles constructed from specified material which may be used in handguns.

M855/SS109 fails to meet the test for AP and the BATF is all wet. Also... the antics of the BATF transcend the current administration, you can look as far back to the Clinton Administration when the BATF started to flex their muscle until reigned in by the courts.... Remember the hoopla they created for themselves at the VA Gun shows in 2006?

The definition of AP ammo is at 18 USC 921(a)(17) and reads:

(B) The term `armor piercing ammunition' means-

(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium.

The bullet must either have a core made ENTIRELY out of one or more of the listed metals, or be full metal jacket type bullets with a jacket comprising more that 25% of its weight.

SS109/M855 bullet cores are only partly steel, and partly lead. Lead is not a listed metal in the above definition.

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Conrad
SWCA #1830 SWHF #222

One of the fellows in another forum gleaned this information from the source:
As I said in another forum, seeing as no lawful gun owner has intentions of killing law enforcement officers with concealed rifle caliber pistols, it should all be a moot point and such bans are totally useless but to remove one of the most popular types of target ammo off the shelves.

One of the earliest AR pistols:
Bushmaster Arm Pistol - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Produced 1977-1990

I believe Olympic Arms started producing more traditional AR pistols as we know them today in the 80's.

http://www.atf.gov/sites/default/fil...g_purposes.pdf

"ATF Framework for Determining Whether Certain Projectiles are Primarily Intended for Sporting Purposes"

I.E. "We know know the facts but the opinion of the Attorney General is more important."

As self defense is an unalienable right the "Sporting Purposes" shenanigans are unconstitutional.

1000 rd case - 5.56 PMC X-TAC M855 62 grain Green Tip FMJ 5.56K LAP Ammo | SGAmmo.com

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M&P15 for me! U.S. Army
Steve

Was at WM today, and went by the ammo counter. Bare to the shelf as usual, except for a fair stack of ZQI new style carton 9mm. I almost kept walking, but something in the stack wasn't right. Stopped and looked - the 5.56 62g (SS109) is now in a box of the same color and almost the same size as the 9. There were a few boxes of the 5.56 mixed in the 9mm stack. I got a clerk with the ammo key, and pulled it.

She mentioned that I was lucky. There had been a fight in the store Thurs night, and they closed the counter at 8 when the police left. In the process they had sold every last round in any box size (including the last ZQI ammo can at $400+). Except for those three boxes no one recognized.

I don't use it, but have a friend who does, so figured at $10/30, it was a good contribution to next (outdoor) range day. My indoor range doesn't allow it.