Bullet tumble

Shootingfun · Jun 9, 2015

Lately when I shoot my M&P 15 sport rifle, after the first 5-10 shots when I check my paper target I see what looks like the bullet hits the target sideways, I get like 2-3 out of like 10 rounds fired. Like it tumbled, not sure if this is the ammo I am shooting the Wolf brass case ammo, also shoot some Perfecta and ZQI 55.6, I am just wondering what could be causing this. I will stop after the rifle heats up a bit, then it will do it again like once every 30+ rounds. I will even out of the 30+ rounds only get like 2-3 bullet shaped impacts on the paper.

If anyone can shed some light on this, thanks for the info and replies. I have shot the hell out of it with a lot of different kinds of ammo. I cannot even remember all the ammo companies that I have put through it.

jimbo728 · Jun 9, 2015

Sounds like the target, not the bullet. Put some thick cardboard up and try again. It would take a pretty shot out barrel to keyhole that much.
Jim

scooter123 · Jun 9, 2015

I don't see any keyholing at all, just some rifles leaned up against shirts. If you don't get the hint it would be useful if you posted pics of your targets. Because of "grain" direction many cheap grades of paper will tear on oblong strips instead of round holes when shot with any type of bullet other than a wad cutter. I rather doubt you are shooting wad cutters in either your AK or AR. BTW, if you don't know what a wad cutter bullet is do a Google search for the term.

I'll also note that much of the cheaper ammo out there for the AR features steel jacketed bullets and you can shoot a barrel out with as few as 5000 rounds with this type of bullet. Start loading your own ammo and you can cut your costs to about 24 cents per round and get better accuracy while loading with 55 grain COPPER jacketed bullets.

WR Moore · Jun 9, 2015

Amen on the "cheap ammo". What you save on ammo, you may well spend on a barrel.

You don't mention cleaning. I'd suggest wetting your bore down well with Hoppes #9 and letting it sit overnight. Then cleaning it until you don't see nasty stuff on the patch. The overnight soak will remove copper and at least loosen up other stuff. 10-20 passes with a new bronze bore brush wouldn't hurt either. Gunk in the bore-especially after shooting some of the stuff you mention-can cause issues.

bhayles · Jun 9, 2015

scooter123 said:
I'll also note that much of the cheaper ammo out there for the AR features steel jacketed bullets and you can shoot a barrel out with as few as 5000 rounds with this type of bullet.

Not applicable to any of the ammo mentioned by the OP.

andyo5 · Jun 9, 2015

My understanding is that in this caliber and especially with 55g FMJ bullets, tumbling is not unusual and is actually desirable from the standpoint of wound creation. The bullet shaped holes may mean that the round was in the process of rotating from light part forward (tip) to heavy part forward (base).

scooter123 · Jun 9, 2015

andyo5 said:
My understanding is that in this caliber and especially with 55g FMJ bullets, tumbling is not unusual and is actually desirable from the standpoint of wound creation. The bullet shaped holes may mean that the round was in the process of rotating from light part forward (tip) to heavy part forward (base).

A common occurrence with with Spitzer type bullets is that they tumble AFTER hitting something like a body. That does enhance wound effects. However, bullets that tumble in flight will NOT produce accuracy that would be considered useful. Basically, if a bullet tumbles in flight you'll see "groups" ranging from a foot or more at just 25 yards.

Shootingfun · Jun 10, 2015

Bullet tumble 2.0

Well thanks for the replies, I did that Hoppes #9 soak and used the next day M-Pro 7 gun cleaner ran a new bore brush down it and the patched it, took like 10 patches to come out clean, I guess the bore snakes are not really made for barrel cleaning. I shot it today about 200 rounds and didn't see the marks.
Sorry about no pics before, here they are what I was seeing the last week at the range. Nothing today though, all shot clean, might have had a dirty bore or bad ammo, I was shooting Wolf gold today again.

samnev · Jun 10, 2015

Shootingfun said:
Well thanks for the replies, I did that Hoppes #9 soak and used the next day M-Pro 7 gun cleaner ran a new bore brush down it and the patched it, took like 10 patches to come out clean, I guess the bore snakes are not really made for barrel cleaning. I shot it today about 200 rounds and didn't see the marks.
Sorry about no pics before, here they are what I was seeing the last week at the range. Nothing today though, all shot clean, might have had a dirty bore or bad ammo, I was shooting Wolf gold today again.

Wow, i've never seen bullets tumble that badly no matter how dirty the bore was. The bullets should not tumble because they hit a paper target or even the homosil backing board. In 40 years of shooting AR's i've never seen that happen. When hitting something with more substance yes especially if you have an AR 15 with a 1:12 twist. With todays AR 15's with twists ranging between 1:9 and 1:7 tumbling is more difficult to achieve. Those holes indicate to me the bullet was thumbing before it hot the target.

MrG5122 · Jun 10, 2015

How far was the target in those pics?

skojiro · Jun 10, 2015

I've actually had this happen to one of my targets before with Hornady TAP 55gr at 25 yards. This was out of a MOE version with the 1/8 5R barrel.

I'm not certain if it was key-holing, but it made me rethink using that load for my home defense mags.

Just thought I would throw out this as a data point on this topic, since it apparently can happen with higher end ammo as well.

scooter123 · Jun 10, 2015

A tip on barrel cleaning. That is to purchase a Tipton Carbon Fiber Cleaning rod for you specific caliber. Note, I've seen these as small as .17 caliber. They are NOT cheap by any stretch of imagination but they won't bow or bind, they won't damage the surface of the lands, and they feature a ball bearing handle so the brush won't loosen as you work on the barrel. As a result they help a lot in speeding up the cleaning process.

Note, standard lengths are 12, 26, 36, 40, and 44 inches, for an AR I would recommend the 24 inch version. Right now they are on sale at Midway for 26.99 and that is a heck of a discount from the 39.99 regular price.

Typical advice for brushing a barrel to completely remove all fouling is one stroke of the brush for each round fired. Personally, I've found using copper fouling remover in combination with CFE223 allows me to get a barrel absolutely spotless with 1 stroke for 4 rounds fired. I will also say from experience that CFE223 meters about as well as water would and that Copper Fouling Eliminator aspect is definitely more that simple marketing hype. I've also worked up a load for my Match AR that will shoot sub 0.30 inch cloverleafs at 100 yards, so with the right bullet the accuracy potential is superb.

Shootingfun · Jun 11, 2015

MrG5122 said:
How far was the target in those pics?

The target was 50+ yards away

Shootingfun · Jun 11, 2015

samnev said:
Wow, i've never seen bullets tumble that badly no matter how dirty the bore was. The bullets should not tumble because they hit a paper target or even the homosil backing board. In 40 years of shooting AR's i've never seen that happen. When hitting something with more substance yes especially if you have an AR 15 with a 1:12 twist. With todays AR 15's with twists ranging between 1:9 and 1:7 tumbling is more difficult to achieve. Those holes indicate to me the bullet was thumbing before it hot the target.

It was only like 3-5 round scattered through 200+ rounds of shooting so maybe the ammo.
I shot it the other day after the Hoppes #9 soak and it didn't do it I also had a gunsmith center my Jerry Miculek Muzzle brake, when I shot it with the pics it was at a 1'o'clock cant. Not sure the brake had anything to do with with.

Shootingfun · Jun 11, 2015

Hey thanks for the replies, When I look down my barrel I can still see all my rifling and I took it to a local gun smith and he scoped it and said it look ed fine. It is a 1:9 twist not the R5 rifling though, it just had the melonite barrel.
I also don't remember shooting is long enough to get the barrel hot enough to damage it. S&W said I could send it back but it would need to be in all the original furniture and flash hider. I have all that but putting it all back on and shipping in it out wow hope they would pay for shipping they never said they would though.

MichiganScott · Jun 12, 2015

Shootingfun said:
I also had a gunsmith center my Jerry Miculek Muzzle brake, when I shot it with the pics it was at a 1'o'clock cant. Not sure the brake had anything to do with with.

It would explain the tumbling if some of the bullets brushed the brake on their way to the target. There must be minimal bullet clearance for a brake to work.

I'd shoot it before sending it back to the mothership now that the brake is centered.

samnev · Jun 12, 2015

MichiganScott said:
It would explain the tumbling if some of the bullets brushed the brake on their way to the target. There must be minimal bullet clearance for a brake to work.

I'd shoot it before sending it back to the mothership now that the brake is centered.

I agree with ^^^^. That could explain the bullet tumbling before hitting the target. The only thing that puzzles me why only an occasional tumble. You would think if it was the brake causing the tumbling it would do it all the time.

Shootingfun · Jun 12, 2015

That was my thoughts on the brake issue causing it. I got in touch with S&W and they told me again just shoot it some more with the same ammo and see if it happens again, if it does they want me to send it in. I have soaked the hell out of the barrel in Hoppes #9 for the last few days. Well today I decided to clean my bolt better, take off the extractor and clean under it better and when I got my bolt apart, 2 of the gas rings just fell apart they where black and brittle.
That explained too me why it was cycling kinda weird the last time out but when I cleaned it after that range trip didn't notice them being bad. I did notice that my bolt was really loose in there. So now those are replaced.

Shootingfun · Jun 14, 2015

Key holing

Well, I soaked the barrel with Hoppes #9 over night, Cleaned the hell out of the rifle and took my Sport out today.

First 20 round mag was a mixture of Tulammo brass max and Perfecta, both .223 55 gr.
In Target 1 I shot 10 rounds at it hitting the target 8 out of 10 had 2 fliers. Out of all of the first 10 shots at 50+ yards shooting at quarter inch foam board stapled to railroad tie backstop. I got 5 Key holing shots out of 10, the other 10 shots where at other targets, not sure if any of those Key holed on me.
In target 2, I shot 20 rounds, had 2 fliers and got 5 more key holing shots. So out of 30 rounds fired I got 10 key hole hits on my target. In mag 2 I was shooting mainly Perfecta and Federal Eagle, both .223 55 fmj
I am at my wits end on this, this rifle has never done this before. I guess I migt have too send it back in to Smith&Wesson

MichiganScott · Jun 14, 2015

Just out of curiosity before you send it back to the Mothership, pull the brake and shoot it.

Bullet tumble

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