The Nothing
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I have an email off to Galloway...
SD40VE ~1600 rds, broken frame/slide takedown lever issue
- Thread starter Sidnne
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A heavier rate spring would impose a heavier loading on
the tabs, for the duration of spring compression.
I don't know how the OEM spring weight compares to the 22# spring that's been mentioned here.
It's possible that the heavier spring weight could stress the 'tabs' over time, resulting in their separation from the frame.
I'd still bet on the compressed stacking (preventing the slide from contacting the 'buttress'), though an excessively high-rate spring could theoretically prevent the slide from getting far enough back, without spring stacking occurring, and give the same results (spring guide tabs acting as slide stop point).
Diagnosis from afar is an imprecise science.
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Sidnne
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That's all well and good, but I'm not interested in "shoulda, coulda, woulda." I'm talking about what is. If you want to be childish and get personal, then have at it. I'm more concerned with addressing a very real problem and making others, including Smith & Wesson, aware of it.
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Sidnne
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What did the email entail?
Stopping the slide
Well, I found it. I had posted earlier asking what ultimately stops rearward slide travel and prevents spring stacking.
I can now see that the slide would hit the first "U" section in the frame, looking front the front of the gun with the slide off.
If you look at the very first picture in this thread you can see some shiny (sort of) impact impressions on that section.
If I'm wrong please let me know.
<snip>
I'd still bet on the compressed stacking (preventing the slide from contacting the 'buttress'), though an excessively high-rate spring could theoretically prevent the slide from getting far enough back, without spring stacking occurring, and give the same results (spring guide tabs acting as slide stop point).
Diagnosis from afar is an imprecise science.
Well, I found it. I had posted earlier asking what ultimately stops rearward slide travel and prevents spring stacking.
I can now see that the slide would hit the first "U" section in the frame, looking front the front of the gun with the slide off.
If you look at the very first picture in this thread you can see some shiny (sort of) impact impressions on that section.
If I'm wrong please let me know.
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Sidnne
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There are a lot of theories regarding the heavier springs. Some say they help to reduce some of the snappiness in the recoil. Some say a heavier spring is better for shooting heavier loads, and a lighter spring is better for lighter loads. Is there truth in any of that? Probably to some degree.
Even if one gains nothing, the frame of the gun should not become damaged from it. If the guide rod and/or spring is what caused this, this is the first gun I've had pieces of the frame break right off from it, and the first gun that I've ever HEARD of that happening. It's something S&W might want to look at.
Keep in mind also, we are all just assuming that the guide rod and spring are the cause of the problem. We have 3 examples of this problem in this thread and all 3 happen to have a Galloway guide rod. The Galloway guide rod is a fairly common modification for the SD40VE, so one would imagine that this would be a more common issue. Perhaps there are people who have this issue who left the gun in the factory configuration. It doesn't seem like there are many of these guns out there with a high round count yet, so maybe by the time they get to 3,000+ with the factory rod and spring, we might be seeing this problem more often, and the stainless rod merely hastened it. They are not sturdy tabs by any means, and I would have to imagine that at some point, they are going to break off regardless of what guide rod someone is using, simply from normal wear.
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Sidnne
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The factory spring is a 17lb spring. The spring I have is a 20lb spring. (Galloway recommends up to a 22lb spring for the .40)
I just yanked the slide off my Gen4 Glock 19, and you know what? It looks exactly the same as the SD series, with thin plastic tabs in front of the takedown lever. And Gen4 models use a metal recoil spring assembly. That now begs the question as to why the tabs are breaking off inside Smiths but not Glocks.
Post #20, Prego.
The rod--actually probably an improperly sized spring--is transferring the impact force of slide from where it should be, to somewhere it shouldn't be (and never would be, with OEM spring & rod).
S&W should look at it, and put a bulletin out to their warranty repair shop.
You guys with the damage should file a small claims suit against whoever made replacement, for cost of a new frame. Blaming S&W for a bad aftermarket part is just wrong.
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Sidnne
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That's the question we should all be asking. Nobody should be accepting lesser quality from S&W. Even if with the plastic guide rod, you might get 6,000 rounds or more out of it, but sooner or later those tabs are going to break off from the wear. It wouldn't be a very big deal if the tabs were replaceable, but it seems to require an entirely new frame when they break.
Do the tabs appear to be replaceable on the Glock, or are they part of the frame like the S&W?
Spring Stacking
Indeed, Post #20 nails it. If the spring "stacks" or in some other way becomes "stiff", whatever I mean by that, the energy remaining the slide has to be absorbed by those thin tabs that the spring bears against.
It would be interesting for someone with the proper tools, and a variety of OEM and replacement springs available, to measure the length (distance between the end flanges) when the springs are compressed to a fully closed condition, i.e. "Stacked".
Sorry if this isn't crystal clear but the test would show whether or not the various springs become a hard stop before the slide hit's it's own stop.
All this seems to now become more clear, I hope.
Indeed, Post #20 nails it. If the spring "stacks" or in some other way becomes "stiff", whatever I mean by that, the energy remaining the slide has to be absorbed by those thin tabs that the spring bears against.
It would be interesting for someone with the proper tools, and a variety of OEM and replacement springs available, to measure the length (distance between the end flanges) when the springs are compressed to a fully closed condition, i.e. "Stacked".
Sorry if this isn't crystal clear but the test would show whether or not the various springs become a hard stop before the slide hit's it's own stop.
All this seems to now become more clear, I hope.
Tabs
I have to disagree, based on some comments and some measurements I have been able to do. The OEM spring is not fully collapsed when the slide hits the heavy lugs, the "U" section in front of those thin tabs, the section that is the ultimate piece that stops slide rearward travel.
I have to disagree, based on some comments and some measurements I have been able to do. The OEM spring is not fully collapsed when the slide hits the heavy lugs, the "U" section in front of those thin tabs, the section that is the ultimate piece that stops slide rearward travel.
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Sidnne
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You are correct. With the aftermarket guide rod assembly, the slide stops about 1/16th of an inch sooner than with the factory assembly.
That sounds like confirmation.
If your 'tabs' are gone, and the guide rod base is *further back* than it should be (if tabs were present)--and slide still stops earlier, than that's 100% confirmation.
Put slide on bare frame (no barrel, no spring) and slide back till it stops against frame. Pencil mark leading edge of slide on dust cover of frame.
Repeat with barrel & OEM spring/rod assembly. Slide stops against frame in same location as previously marked.
I don't have any alternative spring/rod assemblies to compare. If the guys try this with aftermarket parts, if the 'tabs' have been removed, the base of the spring guide will be displaced a few millimeters rearward, and this will skew your comparison.
They'll be molded in the assembly of the frame--it would cost more and be weaker to make them as a separate step and bond them to the frame.
If S&W declines to warranty the repair and it was mine, I'd consider doing a bang-up job of degreasing and prepping the frame, blocking off the area and J-B'ing it...maybe with some stainless cross pins and fiber in the J-B.
And send the aftermarket assembly back to the vendor, and demand a refund...
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Sidnne
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And send the aftermarket assembly back to the vendor, and demand a refund...
I will certainly be doing that.
In the meantime, I think it is important to get the word out about this issue. It's amazing how many videos are on YouTube calling the Galloway guide rod assembly a "must have upgrade" to the SDVE's. And it even has a 4.5 star rating on Amazon.
40s&w
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Has anyone with SD9VE using a steel guide rod had this problem? So far I've seen 2 or 3 threads on this issue and it's always been the SD40VE. I'm guessing this is because of the nature of 40 cal recoil.
I wonder why we aren't hearing more about this issue. This pistol has been out for a few years now and there are plenty of people using steel guide rods in these pistols. Perhaps more and more threads will pop up with time.
Can someone with galloway guide rod take measurements of it? I would like to compare the measurements to the Glock 19 steel guide rod that I'm using in my SD40VE.
I wonder why we aren't hearing more about this issue. This pistol has been out for a few years now and there are plenty of people using steel guide rods in these pistols. Perhaps more and more threads will pop up with time.
Can someone with galloway guide rod take measurements of it? I would like to compare the measurements to the Glock 19 steel guide rod that I'm using in my SD40VE.
Kronos
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One of the parts I never really understood changing was the guide rod,the plastic ones work fine and in most cases could be called disposable if it goes bad toss it and get another.
It isn't really a functional issue (well unless you do change it and break the durn gun) the gun works fine with the stock part nor cosmetic so why do it?
I intend to get a black aluminum plate for the back of the slide just because I like the look but that's an example of a cosmetic upgrade,I'm getting a new rear sight in metal because the stock one is getting tore up-that's an example of a needed upgrade.
My two cents.
It isn't really a functional issue (well unless you do change it and break the durn gun) the gun works fine with the stock part nor cosmetic so why do it?
I intend to get a black aluminum plate for the back of the slide just because I like the look but that's an example of a cosmetic upgrade,I'm getting a new rear sight in metal because the stock one is getting tore up-that's an example of a needed upgrade.
My two cents.
