SD40VE ~1600 rds, broken frame/slide takedown lever issue

I've run into another issue with my SD40VE. I've got around 1,600 rounds through it, and after my most recent trip to the range this week, the takedown lever stays depressed after putting the slide on. When I pull the trigger (dry-firing of course) the slide comes right off. If the slide is pulled back and cocked, then the slide stays on, because the trigger needs to be pulled in order to takedown the sdve. What appears to be happening, is the guide rod is hitting against the takedown lever and preventing the lever from coming back up and locking the slide on.

After examining, and comparing to a friend's sd40ve, I noticed that there are supposed to be tabs in front of the takedown lever, which apparently stop the guide rob from touching the takedown lever. On mine, those tabs have broken off.

I did install a Galloway stainless steel guide rod with a 20 lb spring, but I installed that at around the 200 round mark, so I've fired around 1,300 rounds with the Galloway guide rod installed.

I'm pretty sure my only option is to send it in to S&W for repair/replacement. But, I was curious if anyone else has experience this issue, and also to make others aware of the issue and to keep an eye on those tabs. They don't appear to be very sturdy and look to break off very easily.

I've included photos that show what I'm talking about:

Yep.

Just happened to mine the other day. I can't say that I noticed anything missing, but I have the same problem. 1100rds through and about 250rds with the Galloway 22#

I've also noticed that because the spring has been hammering on the takedown plate, the plate has started hammering on the frame and started mushrooming the polymer.

I've found that I can get it back in place if I smack it a couple times, but, well, that is less than ideal.

I haven't contacted S&W yet because, well, it's my only carry weapon.


Also happened to this guy
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCZkzwQ3ufc[/ame]

He just got his back this week, was without for 51 days

Actually, I forget I stippled my frame

Warranty Void. F.

here you can see I've only broken one tab

It looks to me like using a metal guide rod is a bad idea, as they apparently chew away the plastic tabs during recoil. I was just talking about a slight change in recent-production SD frames in another thread, so I wonder if S&W has addressed this issue as well? I might have to go back to the gun shop that has the new SD9VE and ask them if I can quickly field-strip it and look inside. You would think with all the SW and SD pistols Smith & Wesson has sold if this was a design flaw they'd have noticed it by now.

Thanks everyone for the warning. My SD40VE has been reliable and problem-free as of now but does not have nearly the round count yet. After taking off my slide I can see the 2 plastic tabs that are missing in the above photos. I can see how a steel guider I'd my break those tabs over time. I mostly leave my defensive pistols stock to avoid things that might void it's warranty.
BTW, the man in the included youtube video has a follow-up video date 2 days ago. It seems that S&W replaced his whole pistol for free...and his SD40VE didn't look stock either. You may want to give it a try and send it in.

Very glad that I haven't modified my SD9VE. If you look back through the posts on various threads, their is quite a bit of discussion about spring rate and something generally overlooked, pre-load.

In particular I suggest looking at posts by OKFC05, which include analysis of several spring system factors, including a link to the company that makes the S&W springs.

(He has a physics background and is very good at systems analysis. This may cause some folks to skip over his analyses but he does provide a scientific and un-biased analysis of gun actions.)

About those tabs, I finally found them because I wondered where the rear of the spring is held, and it clearly those tabs that metal guide rods seem to attack if there is a hard hit at recoil.

I had to get out my 9mm to see what you're talking about. It also has those tabs.

I know both rods would ride the same, and the stock plastic rod will have some give, but wouldn't a heavier spring force the rod, whether plastic or metal to impact the tabs more due to it's stronger pressure under recoils.

Will this become a "do not use" debate of metal guide rods or heavier recoil springs?

Will S&W have anything to say about this being an issue or are we all alone until it happens and word gets out that S&W then starts saying VOIDED WARRANTY due to using aftermarket part years later---after everybody used the part?

Remember, the frame of a SD-VE model "IS" the FFL registered part.

I know it's happened with Hi-Point carbines where people----for years, used ATI stocks and then HP starts saying no more warranty work if an ATI stock is/was used.

Any thoughts?

The Nothing said:

Actually, I forget I stippled my frame

Warranty Void. F.

Click to expand...

I wouldn't see S&W 'voiding' your warranty for you stippling the frame, if using a non-S&W steel guide rod damaged the frame.

dsk said:

You would think with all the SW and SD pistols Smith & Wesson has sold if this was a design flaw they'd have noticed it by now.

Click to expand...

It's not a 'design flaw' if it doesn't happen until you put an aftermarket part into the pistol.

Not trying to make you feel bad, but *why* change out the OEM guide rod & spring (aside from replacing the spring after high round count)? What advantage does a steel guide rod provide?

Tabs

TriumphMan said:

I had to get out my 9mm to see what you're talking about. It also has those tabs.

<snip>

Any thoughts?

Click to expand...

I took a look to see, in my SD9VE, what supports those tabs and what physically stops the slide if you rack it all the way back.

The tabs are clearly self-supporting because you can slip a piece of paper between them and the well-supported "take down lever", which rides in a significant metal structure. There is a slim possibility that the tabs could move a little and hit that lever, but it seems to me that any movement would fatigue those thin plastic flanges.

I then decided to see what would ultimately stop the slide as it moves rearward. Can't be absolutely sure but my guess right now is a full collapse of the flat recoil spring. I don't know whether this is intended to happen when the gun fires. If so, those tabs/flanges would take a serious beating with every shot. A strong spring would prevent that from happening, but at some spring rating (+ preload force) the action would not fully cycle and a failure to eject or feed would occur.

I assume there are some folks here who can illuminate this issue. Any ideas?

Steve912 said:

I wouldn't see S&W 'voiding' your warranty for you stippling the frame, if using a non-S&W steel guide rod damaged the frame.

Click to expand...

S&W considers stippling to be damaging to the frame and it does void the warranty. It's been covered elsewhere on this forum.

NYnewbie said:

BTW, the man in the included youtube video has a follow-up video date 2 days ago. It seems that S&W replaced his whole pistol for free...and his SD40VE didn't look stock either. You may want to give it a try and send it in.

Click to expand...

He did have a 20# Gallaway spring that he removed before shipping it off, as well as other non-factory items. It also took him 51 days to get it back.

Steve912 said:

It's not a 'design flaw' if it doesn't happen until you put an aftermarket part into the pistol.

Not trying to make you feel bad, but *why* change out the OEM guide rod & spring (aside from replacing the spring after high round count)? What advantage does a steel guide rod provide?

Click to expand...

I switched to the stainless steel guide rod because I had hoped it would last longer than the plastic one.

Changing a guide rod and/or switching to a different strength spring is probably the most common and most simple handgun customization. It's a comfort thing for many people, as a stronger recoil spring can reduce the recoil and make the gun more comfortable to shoot. I had also hoped that a stronger spring would help with the failure to feed issues that many people, including myself, have with this pistol.

Doing something as simple as changing the guide rod and spring should not cause pieces of the frame to break off. That is a quality control issue and a design issue. Instead of accepting lower quality by saying "it's not a 'design flaw' if it doesn't happen until you put an aftermarket part into the pistol," we should be using our voices as consumer to hold a company with a reputation such as Smith&Wesson's to a higher standard and expecting higher quality products. I'm certain Smith & Wesson does not want to produce firearms that fall apart if their customers switch out the guide rods.

Originally Posted by NYnewbie View Post
BTW, the man in the included youtube video has a follow-up video date 2 days ago. It seems that S&W replaced his whole pistol for free...and his SD40VE didn't look stock either. You may want to give it a try and send it in.
===================================
Glad to see he still has his left hand and fingers. I jumped when I saw him handling the gun in the video.

It's a comfort thing for many people, as a stronger recoil spring can reduce the recoil

Click to expand...

It is an often repeated urban myth that changing the recoil spring reduces the total recoil force of a pistol, which would violate Newton's Second Law.
Changing the recoil spring can change the timing or duration of the recoil motion, in other words move the recoil around, not reduce it.

PERCEIVED RECOIL is highly subjective and dependent on the attitude and perceptions of the person holding the gun as much as the gun itself. The sharpness of the recoil is sometimes perceived as more recoil.

OK OKFC05, I had the same notion, glad you presented it so well. Newton prevails again!

Anyhow, what stops the slide when the gun is fired? Is it supposed to bottom out the spring or not?

TriumphMan said:

Will this become a "do not use" debate of metal guide rods or heavier recoil springs

Click to expand...

I think that debate would likely be limited to this particular line of handguns. I can't think of any other guns that have that type of take down and rely on flimsy little tabs to shield the take down lever. Glocks may be the only other one, since the SDVE line is modeled after Glocks, but I'm not sure if Glocks use similar style tabs.

I have put metal guide rods and extra power recoil springs in all of my handguns, and this is the only one I've ever had a problem with.

Heavier recoil springs

Sidnne said:

<snip>

I have put metal guide rods and extra power recoil springs in all of my handguns, and this is the only one I've ever had a problem with.

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By "extra power recoil springs" I assume you mean springs with a higher spring rate.

Several posters say they have done the same thing.

What does one gain by doing that?

Sidnne said:

I think that debate would likely be limited to this particular line of handguns. I can't think of any other guns that have that type of take down and rely on flimsy little tabs to shield the take down lever. Glocks may be the only other one, since the SDVE line is modeled after Glocks, but I'm not sure if Glocks use similar style tabs.

I have put metal guide rods and extra power recoil springs in all of my handguns, and this is the only one I've ever had a problem with.

Click to expand...

A quick google search shows that Glocks do in fact have the same tabs in the same location. However, I have not been able to find any Glock owners who have experienced the issue with these tabs getting knocked off via steel guide rod.

Sidnne said:

I switched to the stainless steel guide rod because I had hoped it would last longer than the plastic one.

Click to expand...

If you'd left the OEM guide rod in, it (and your pistol) would
probably still be functioning properly.

Sidnne said:

Changing a guide rod and/or switching to a different strength spring is probably the most common and most simple handgun customization. It's a comfort thing for many people, as a stronger recoil spring can reduce the recoil and make the gun more comfortable to shoot. I had also hoped that a stronger spring would help with the failure to feed issues that many people, including myself, have with this pistol.

Click to expand...

Sure it's simple to change--but that doesn't mean it's a good idea. Aftermarket vendors push all kinds of parts, and the 'easy to replace' pieces sell well to less experienced shooters.

AFA hoping a stouter recoil spring will help failure to feed problems--not likely unless the original spring was out of spec. Check magazine and operator grip before changing other parts.

Sidnne said:

Doing something as simple as changing the guide rod and spring should not cause pieces of the frame to break off.

Click to expand...

There's lots of simple things you can do that are bad ideas. It's not S&W's fault you put an aftermarket piece in there.

Sidnne said:

That is a quality control issue and a design issue. Instead of accepting lower quality by saying "it's not a 'design flaw' if it doesn't happen until you put an aftermarket part into the pistol," we should be using our voices as consumer to hold a company with a reputation such as Smith&Wesson's to a higher standard and expecting higher quality products. I'm certain Smith & Wesson does not want to produce firearms that fall apart if their customers switch out the guide rods.

Click to expand...

"If it ain't broke, don't FIX it."

Edit: I just took a look at my SD. Your aftermarket part altered the operating dynamics
of the pistol, and caused parts (the 'tabs', as you call them) to receive stress they were
not designed to endure...until they break.

"Oh no, it's a design flaw!!" No, not at all...
well, actually it IS, but not Smith's.

Let's look at the design.

Function With OEM Guide Rod & Spring
After firing a round, what stops the slide's rearward travel--with the OEM
spring/rod assembly?

Look at inside of slide, at muzzle. There is a semi-circular projection that the
recoil spring guide passes through. Next, look at the receiver, right in front of
the forward metal guide rails. There, is a thick buttress of polymer--about 5mm
--shaped remarkably like the section of the slide, where the guide rod passes
through!

With the OEM guide rod/spring, the slide impacts this thick, beefy buttressed
portion of polymer frame--the portion of the frame designed to safely and
repeatedly absorb this stress. The slide also happens to impact (hard stop!)
the frame, BEFORE the recoil spring 'stacks' into an incompressible cylinder
on the guide rod (in other words, the recoil spring is still compressible,
when slide travel has stopped against frame).

Or, alternatively, the 'hard stop' of slide travel is not performed by
recoil spring/guide rod/frame interaction.

Function With Aftermarket Steel Guide Rod & Spring

With aftermarket rod/spring assembly, the slide begins it's rearward
travel normally--but then something ugly happens.

The aftermarket spring 'bottoms out' (stacks into an incompressible
cylinder on the guide rod) BEFORE the slide strikes the buttress area of
the frame.

The slide doesn't slam into the buttress area, harmlessly. Instead,
all of the slide's rearward momentum is transferred into your so
called 'tabs'--and eventually breaks them off. The hard stop of slide
is performed by slide against 'stacked' recoil spring, pressing against
spring guide base, and into the frame via the 'tabs'.

=======================================

If you compare slide travel-on-frame with and without barrel or recoil
spring/rod, I bet you'll find your slide doesn't come back quite as far to
the rear, with your aftermarket spring/rod, as with the OEM assembly.

The slide STOPS at same point, with or without OEM assembly--when
slide contacts the buttressed area in frame.

=======================================


The design flaw is in the aftermarket guide rod--it breaks pieces off the frame.
Your beef is not with S&W--it's with the manufacturer of the spring/rod assembly,
which damaged your pistol. The aftermarket mfr should have insured the spring
could not reach full compression, before rearward motion of slide was arrested
by frame contact.

Mods, recommend thread be stickied and retitled "Do Not Use Aftermarket Steel Guide Rods in Sigma/SD Series Pistols!"