question 10 mm ammo double tap

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I have a 1086 in great condition with new factory 17 lb recoil spring do I need stronger spring to shoot double tap ammo I ordered today ? Its 180 grain controlled expansion jhp at 1300 fps .. only intend to shoot two boxes unless I like em.. and I probably will.. Thanks for all the information education and friendly advice David D.
 
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We issued the 1006 and had our ammo custom loaded for several years. If the ammo actually delivers that velocity, you're treading at the ragged edge. The WW Silvertip round was also a known abuser of the weapons system.

There's two issues here: the weapon isn't in production, so parts are limited to what exists now and how much are you going to shoot it. Our round counts ran in the thousands per year, the last few years we were using Federal Classic at around 1100 fps.

BTW, the forces of the slide returning to battery are always higher than those in recoil. Jacking up spring ratings to reduce the recoil forces, increases the loads going into battery. Remember that the slide stop is what is what halts the slide assembly going into battery and leave your springs alone.
 
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Dunno, depends upon what the ammo actually produces vs claims. Also one of the reasons to treat botique ammo makers with great suspicion.

The critical issue in semi-auto function is momentum: mass times velocity. Remington UMC ball lists 180 @ 1150 fps for a momentum value of 207,000. The Winchester catalog lists the 175 Silvertip @ 1290 fps for a momentum value of 225,750 and is known to be abusive*. Since your source lists 180 @ 1300, what do you think? I wouldn't necessarily rate them as unsafe-absent pressure testing-but expect accelerated wear.

* Recall our round counts were in the thousands per year, does make a difference [we didn't use Winchester, a sister agency did and broke lots of stuff]. Limited amounts probably wouldn't be an issue. Wouldn't shoot it myself. Do kinda wish I'd recorded our specs when we were shooting custom loads. We did independent verification of velocities and sent a few shipments back.
 
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DT Ammo is definitely safe to shoot in your Smith.

Changing recoil springs has become the tinkerer's modification De jour for all bottoms feeders it seems and a whole cottage industry has sprung up to provide springs which claim to cure all manner of maladies, real or imagined. I am absolutely amazed that handgun designers can get all aspects of a gun's operation consistently correct except for the design of the recoil spring, which current practice suggests are consistently wrong. There are legit reasons for changing recoil springs but they are usually not why it is currently done or so it seems.

If the gun cycles correctly without signs of battering, it is operating as designed and there is no need to change any springs. All 10mm auto's throw empties a long way due to the very high slide velocities involved and trying to tame that with heavier recoil springs will only cause battering in the other direction plus other cycling problems.

Try a box or two of either DT or Buffalo Bore ammo and check for signs of problems before you arbitrarily start putzing with recoil springs. Your gun won't break into parts. Just keep an eye on it and make any necessary adjustment after you observe a wear or cycling problem.

;)

Bruce
 
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I'm new to the 10mm game myself with a LNIB 1006 and a G20SF. My plan was to use these as strickly my camping / hiking sidearm with the DT 200 WFNGC ammo for 4 legged threats. Should I stay away fro
this ammo? If so, what do you recommend?
 
Hmmm. I understand Double Tap started with 10MM ammo manufactured to the original specs, and they have built their reputation on it.

Is my memory wrong in that this round was originally comparable to the 41 Magnum, not the .357? I am pretty sure about this but who knows..

From everything I've read, and everyone I've talked with, DT seems pretty well thought of in all things 10MM. There are a lot of Glock 10mm's shooting DT ammo out there.
 
I use DT and Buffalo Bore ammo in my 1006, 1026 and 1076 and have detected no signs of wear at all. Both brands are loaded hot and you will know you have fired somethng. I totally agree about recoil springs, they should be replaced for a normal wear cycle, or if your weapon shows wear on the recoil end of the action cycling. In a 10mm using hot loads I replace my recoil springs every 3-5000 rounds depending on the number of really hot rounds fired. I do not save the old springs.
 
Double Tap is the only 10mm ammo I shoot. If I wanted a 10mm lite I would have bought a .40 cal. It is good ammo, if not the best you can buy. Mike Mcnett offers a good product and excellent customer service. I can't speak for the S&W 10mm as I do not have one but my Kimber's love the ammo.
 
Is it fmj? Is it cheap? Kind of a waste of jhp if you ask me to just hit paper.

I'd get a 22lr conversion kit if it was made.
 
The original 10MM load was Norma 200Gr. FMJ @ 1200 FPS from a 5” barrel. I think there was a Norma HP as well but am not certain.
Somewhere I have (or had) a partial box of the Norma FMJ, however I have not been able to find it since we moved to Florida 13 years ago.
Some Norma Brass was in my rotation for a long while; I think given the approximate 10% loss at the range, it is now all gone.

I think poogyrr is correct, Double tap started in business making the original 10MM load. At the time unless you reloaded 10MM all you could get was 10MM in name only. How about TMMINO?

I could shoot 40 S&W or .45ACP, if I am to shoot 10MM I really am looking for something more.
Reloading is the only way to go.
 
About springs, I always use the Factory Original Weight (1076=17#) I trust Wolff to know what that is and I use it.

It is I suppose possible that you might find some commercial ammunition for the 10MM loaded to imitate the 40 that would not cycle the 1076 action and then need a lighter recoil spring and firing pin spring to use up the awful stuff. I don’t go there.
As BruceM points out changing springs is a tricky proposition. Slide weight, mainspring tension, friction, recoil spring tension are part of the design. One thing is certain if you slow down opening speed you will increase closing speed (heavy spring). The reverse is true as well. What you are doing is changing the timing. Good? Or Bad?
Since it works fine as designed does it need adjustment?

In an effort to get the lightest possible recoil consistent with the highest possible accuracy 1911 tuners sometimes go to lighter springs, it is absolutely necessary to change at least recoil, main, and firing pin spring when doing this. You essentially have a very special purpose pistol designed around a special load. This special load is far different from the 230GR FMJ for which the 1911 was designed.
 
The original Norma 10mm HP load was a 170 grainer @ 1250 fps from a 5" barrel.

DT's velocity ratings are very high and were measured when fired from a Glock 20 I believe. As is usual, actual velocities from your gun may be and generally are lower than rated but still stiff compared to the emasculated 10mm ammo produced by the big ammo makers which is more like .40 S&W+P. Even the Winchester Silver Tips are substantially slower than the original real deal Norma offerings. The initial few lots of Norma ammo were defective with a fair amount of velocity & pressure (high) deviation. This made accuracy problematical. Later lots still met the 1200 and 1250 fps spec's respectively and accuracy problems disappeared.

:)

Bruce
 
It’s certainly not worth arguing about the first load. I did not buy my first 10mm until 1990, a 1006. At that time Norma was still available. I had shot a Colt Delta but did not like it and they were acquiring a bad reputation. So my knowledge is certainly hearsay, and I didn’t shoot a 10MM until probably 1988.

Several authors say that Norma had the first load. Here is one;
“In 1983 the 10mm automatic cartridge made its' debut in the new Bren Ten. The gun and ammo were designed to launch a 200 grain bullet in excess of 1200 feet per second, to nearly duplicate the .41 magnum in some loadings. The purportedly throttled back 200 grain Norma ammo I have in my hand states they were chronographing 1200 FPS in this box. I have tested it, and it does meet this spec.”Quote; Gary Napolitano, the 10MM Information pages.
Whether the 10MM was designed for the Bren 10 or not the first pistol chambered for it was the Bren 10.

The oldest data I can find right now is from Ken Waters July1989 Handloader., He lists;
155 Hornady JHP 1300
170 Hornady JHP 1240
170 Norma JHP 1350
175 Winchester JHP 1220
200 Hornady FMJ 1120
200 Norma FMJ 1200


The so called FBI load; Federal XM1001 180gr@924 fps was of course latter 1990.
The FBI did test a Norma load 170 GR @1350, but seem to have selected the Federal.
 
Mike Dixon from Dornaus & Dixon (Bren Ten) convinced Norma to manufacture the original 10mm ammo after US companies showed no interest in doing so. Jeff Cooper specified that he wanted the ammo for the new gun to have a target impact velocity @ 50 yds of 1,000 fps with a 200 grain bullet. Dixon added a little wiggle room into the equation because he feared the finished product might come up short and you can see how the 1,200 fps muzzle velocity came about.

I have no doubt that some of the original 170 gr. Norma JHP ammo may have crono'd as high as 1350 fps because, as I said, a few initial lots of both loadings were perversely defective. The first mention I saw of that fact was in a magazine article by, I believe, Wiley Clapp. IMR, the article was a Shooting Times review of the then new Delta Elite but my recollection may be wrong. I'm sure about the D&D/Norma connection because I assisted Ron Carrillo in researching the book "Bren Ten-The Heir Apparent".

Bruce
 
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