I have a 1086 in great condition with new factory 17 lb recoil spring do I need stronger spring to shoot double tap ammo I ordered today ? Its 180 grain controlled expansion jhp at 1300 fps .. only intend to shoot two boxes unless I like em.. and I probably will.. Thanks for all the information education and friendly advice David D.

IMO you do not. Do not be surprised if the brass flies away----that is the nature of the 10mm beast.

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Ipsis Rebus Dictantitbus

Thanks for reply old Roger, does your 1076 have factory 17 lb or is diff for diff model ??

We issued the 1006 and had our ammo custom loaded for several years. If the ammo actually delivers that velocity, you're treading at the ragged edge. The WW Silvertip round was also a known abuser of the weapons system.

There's two issues here: the weapon isn't in production, so parts are limited to what exists now and how much are you going to shoot it. Our round counts ran in the thousands per year, the last few years we were using Federal Classic at around 1100 fps.

BTW, the forces of the slide returning to battery are always higher than those in recoil. Jacking up spring ratings to reduce the recoil forces, increases the loads going into battery. Remember that the slide stop is what is what halts the slide assembly going into battery and leave your springs alone.

OK Im confused now, are these rounds unsafe.. slide stop huh.. .

Dunno, depends upon what the ammo actually produces vs claims. Also one of the reasons to treat botique ammo makers with great suspicion.

The critical issue in semi-auto function is momentum: mass times velocity. Remington UMC ball lists 180 @ 1150 fps for a momentum value of 207,000. The Winchester catalog lists the 175 Silvertip @ 1290 fps for a momentum value of 225,750 and is known to be abusive*. Since your source lists 180 @ 1300, what do you think? I wouldn't necessarily rate them as unsafe-absent pressure testing-but expect accelerated wear.

* Recall our round counts were in the thousands per year, does make a difference [we didn't use Winchester, a sister agency did and broke lots of stuff]. Limited amounts probably wouldn't be an issue. Wouldn't shoot it myself. Do kinda wish I'd recorded our specs when we were shooting custom loads. We did independent verification of velocities and sent a few shipments back.

DT Ammo is definitely safe to shoot in your Smith.

Changing recoil springs has become the tinkerer's modification De jour for all bottoms feeders it seems and a whole cottage industry has sprung up to provide springs which claim to cure all manner of maladies, real or imagined. I am absolutely amazed that handgun designers can get all aspects of a gun's operation consistently correct except for the design of the recoil spring, which current practice suggests are consistently wrong. There are legit reasons for changing recoil springs but they are usually not why it is currently done or so it seems.

If the gun cycles correctly without signs of battering, it is operating as designed and there is no need to change any springs. All 10mm auto's throw empties a long way due to the very high slide velocities involved and trying to tame that with heavier recoil springs will only cause battering in the other direction plus other cycling problems.

Try a box or two of either DT or Buffalo Bore ammo and check for signs of problems before you arbitrarily start putzing with recoil springs. Your gun won't break into parts. Just keep an eye on it and make any necessary adjustment after you observe a wear or cycling problem.



Bruce

I'm new to the 10mm game myself with a LNIB 1006 and a G20SF. My plan was to use these as strickly my camping / hiking sidearm with the DT 200 WFNGC ammo for 4 legged threats. Should I stay away fro
this ammo? If so, what do you recommend?

Hmmm. I understand Double Tap started with 10MM ammo manufactured to the original specs, and they have built their reputation on it.

Is my memory wrong in that this round was originally comparable to the 41 Magnum, not the .357? I am pretty sure about this but who knows..

From everything I've read, and everyone I've talked with, DT seems pretty well thought of in all things 10MM. There are a lot of Glock 10mm's shooting DT ammo out there.

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July 4, 1776 not Jan 30, 1909

I use DT and Buffalo Bore ammo in my 1006, 1026 and 1076 and have detected no signs of wear at all. Both brands are loaded hot and you will know you have fired somethng. I totally agree about recoil springs, they should be replaced for a normal wear cycle, or if your weapon shows wear on the recoil end of the action cycling. In a 10mm using hot loads I replace my recoil springs every 3-5000 rounds depending on the number of really hot rounds fired. I do not save the old springs.

I would just shoot the cheap stuff anyway if you're just plinking.

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SW Sigma 40VE, 22a, M&P 15-22

Double Tap is the only 10mm ammo I shoot. If I wanted a 10mm lite I would have bought a .40 cal. It is good ammo, if not the best you can buy. Mike Mcnett offers a good product and excellent customer service. I can't speak for the S&W 10mm as I do not have one but my Kimber's love the ammo.

Is it fmj? Is it cheap? Kind of a waste of jhp if you ask me to just hit paper.

I'd get a 22lr conversion kit if it was made.

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SW Sigma 40VE, 22a, M&P 15-22

10mm ammo and cheap does not go togeather.

The original 10MM load was Norma 200Gr. FMJ @ 1200 FPS from a 5” barrel. I think there was a Norma HP as well but am not certain.
Somewhere I have (or had) a partial box of the Norma FMJ, however I have not been able to find it since we moved to Florida 13 years ago.
Some Norma Brass was in my rotation for a long while; I think given the approximate 10% loss at the range, it is now all gone.

I think poogyrr is correct, Double tap started in business making the original 10MM load. At the time unless you reloaded 10MM all you could get was 10MM in name only. How about TMMINO?

I could shoot 40 S&W or .45ACP, if I am to shoot 10MM I really am looking for something more.
Reloading is the only way to go.

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Ipsis Rebus Dictantitbus

About springs, I always use the Factory Original Weight (1076=17#) I trust Wolff to know what that is and I use it.

It is I suppose possible that you might find some commercial ammunition for the 10MM loaded to imitate the 40 that would not cycle the 1076 action and then need a lighter recoil spring and firing pin spring to use up the awful stuff. I don’t go there.
As BruceM points out changing springs is a tricky proposition. Slide weight, mainspring tension, friction, recoil spring tension are part of the design. One thing is certain if you slow down opening speed you will increase closing speed (heavy spring). The reverse is true as well. What you are doing is changing the timing. Good? Or Bad?
Since it works fine as designed does it need adjustment?

In an effort to get the lightest possible recoil consistent with the highest possible accuracy 1911 tuners sometimes go to lighter springs, it is absolutely necessary to change at least recoil, main, and firing pin spring when doing this. You essentially have a very special purpose pistol designed around a special load. This special load is far different from the 230GR FMJ for which the 1911 was designed.

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Ipsis Rebus Dictantitbus

The original Norma 10mm HP load was a 170 grainer @ 1250 fps from a 5" barrel.

DT's velocity ratings are very high and were measured when fired from a Glock 20 I believe. As is usual, actual velocities from your gun may be and generally are lower than rated but still stiff compared to the emasculated 10mm ammo produced by the big ammo makers which is more like .40 S&W+P. Even the Winchester Silver Tips are substantially slower than the original real deal Norma offerings. The initial few lots of Norma ammo were defective with a fair amount of velocity & pressure (high) deviation. This made accuracy problematical. Later lots still met the 1200 and 1250 fps spec's respectively and accuracy problems disappeared.



Bruce

I have a Sig 229 .40 and I that is what I am using. I can't forsee that you won't like it.

It’s certainly not worth arguing about the first load. I did not buy my first 10mm until 1990, a 1006. At that time Norma was still available. I had shot a Colt Delta but did not like it and they were acquiring a bad reputation. So my knowledge is certainly hearsay, and I didn’t shoot a 10MM until probably 1988.

Several authors say that Norma had the first load. Here is one;
“In 1983 the 10mm automatic cartridge made its' debut in the new Bren Ten. The gun and ammo were designed to launch a 200 grain bullet in excess of 1200 feet per second, to nearly duplicate the .41 magnum in some loadings. The purportedly throttled back 200 grain Norma ammo I have in my hand states they were chronographing 1200 FPS in this box. I have tested it, and it does meet this spec.”Quote; Gary Napolitano, the 10MM Information pages.
Whether the 10MM was designed for the Bren 10 or not the first pistol chambered for it was the Bren 10.

The oldest data I can find right now is from Ken Waters July1989 Handloader., He lists;
155 Hornady JHP 1300
170 Hornady JHP 1240
170 Norma JHP 1350
175 Winchester JHP 1220
200 Hornady FMJ 1120
200 Norma FMJ 1200


The so called FBI load; Federal XM1001 180gr@924 fps was of course latter 1990.
The FBI did test a Norma load 170 GR @1350, but seem to have selected the Federal.

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Ipsis Rebus Dictantitbus

Mike Dixon from Dornaus & Dixon (Bren Ten) convinced Norma to manufacture the original 10mm ammo after US companies showed no interest in doing so. Jeff Cooper specified that he wanted the ammo for the new gun to have a target impact velocity @ 50 yds of 1,000 fps with a 200 grain bullet. Dixon added a little wiggle room into the equation because he feared the finished product might come up short and you can see how the 1,200 fps muzzle velocity came about.

I have no doubt that some of the original 170 gr. Norma JHP ammo may have crono'd as high as 1350 fps because, as I said, a few initial lots of both loadings were perversely defective. The first mention I saw of that fact was in a magazine article by, I believe, Wiley Clapp. IMR, the article was a Shooting Times review of the then new Delta Elite but my recollection may be wrong. I'm sure about the D&D/Norma connection because I assisted Ron Carrillo in researching the book "Bren Ten-The Heir Apparent".

Bruce

Some of the ammo history here has been interesting. I will note that my comments upon loads/damage were from having a 1006 as an issue weapon for 15 years (bought mine when they were replaced) and observing both our experiences and those of a sister agency armed with the same weapon but different ammo. Admittedly, I can't swear the other folks were changing recoil springs when they should have.

Grown folks can do what they wish. However, if you find you're breaking things (safeties seemed especially prone for some reason), install a new, factory recoil spring and change your ammo. The majors may have changed their ammo specs for good reason.

WR You are right of course, “safe” is one thing, wear and tear another. The 10MM is a high pressure & high performance round. That is the reason I shoot it. There is no doubt in my mind that a high round count of the Norma type loads will wear things out and eventually break them. The 10MM certainly had that affect on the Delta Elite.
On the other hand I may never hit the high round counts you experienced. I have had my 1006 for nearly 20 years. I doubt if it is at 5000 rounds yet and shows almost no wear, but of course it could break tomorrow.
If it was a duty weapon that would be a very serious problem as it is hopefully I will be able to find parts. I wonder why safeties break?

This may be a case similar to the K frame .357s, a steady diet of .357 loads over a protracted period certainly caused problems with them.
Roger

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Ipsis Rebus Dictantitbus

One of the arguable problems with 10mm is that it has much variation in power level. Normal loads go from 175-180 grain bullets going from subsonic speeds all the way to 1350 FPS! To think a single recoil spring weight is ideal for all power level does not seem logical.

Wolff makes a recoil spring calibration pack. You start with the 22lb spring and work down. No surprisingly 17 lbs works great for lower and mid powered ammo, and makes for reliable feeding. 18, 19, and 20 are good for more powerful ammunition. They feed reliably and help manage the recoil.

If you see any subsonic Norma 10mm ammo, I would like to buy a box. I have NEVER heard the terms Norma, subsonic and 10mm used in the same breath until now.

As far as the recoil springs go, just because it says 10mm on the box does not make it real 10mm ammo. The round has been cut off at the knees by so many manufacturers that there is a fair amount of .40 S&W level ammo out there masquerading as 10mm. That said, until there is some of evidence of a problem, it's a better strategy to stick with the OEM spring.



Bruce

I have the S&W1006 since early 1990, it use to toss the ejected brass to the 5 o'clock about 20' to 25' with the stock spring (18# for the 5" 10xx series). I did change the factory spring trying the 24#, 22#, 20# Wolff recoil springs. The 22# has been the spring that seems to work the best keeping the brass with in 8' or 10' right and back with my handloaded rounds. The gun runs flawlessly with any ammo I use.

One thing I did notice was how well this spring works using the Bar-Sto 40S&W conversion and 40 ammunition. It has even worked using a Bar-Sto 9x25Dillon conversion although performance wise these don't get the higher velocities as the guns with 6" barrels.

I will state that I found the 24# spring excessive, requiring a firmmer grip to rack the slide back. Not what I wanted especially in a stressful situation.

I really like these old 10xx series pistols...

thank u all for your comments and for sharing your knowledge and experience which is quite impressive David D

I have fired quite a few rounds of DT 10mm in my Glock 20. It chronographs quite closely to what DT claims on their packaging. I haven't used it in my 1006. Spare parts being my main concern.

The reason I changed my recoil spring set up on my Glock G20SF. Not sure if the same holds true for your S&W autos.

From Buffalo Bore's website:
"Full power 10mm ammo has always generated enough recoil and pressure to require a pretty stiff recoil spring in your handgun - this of course depends on several variables such as your slide weight, etc. When the cartridge fires, it generates enough pressure/recoil to prematurely open your breech face in some guns. When this happens, the opening breech face has an effect on the burn rate of the powder. This can result in some fairly high extreme spreads in velocity. If you are experiencing extreme velocity spreads of more than 50 fps, simply install a stiffer recoil spring. For example, I have an original Colt Delta Elite. This gun with the factory spring runs extreme spreads of about 35fps with both of these 10mm loads. I am happy with 35 fps, so I leave the Delta Elite as is. I also have a custom built Para Ordinance with a Nowlin barrel. It runs extreme spreads of about 70 fps with its original recoil spring. When I install a spring that is 4 lbs stiffer, the extreme spread drops to about 35 fps. The new Glock model 20 comes with a recoil spring that allows the breech face to open too soon and my new Glock model 20 will get extreme spreads of about 100fps with the factory spring installed. When I go to a stiffer recoil spring, the extreme spreads drop to about 50 fps in my new Glock model 20. Of course none of this will be an issue in a revolver. None of this will be an issue in real life either, as these high extreme spreads don't hurt accuracy or function. However, I mention this because if you are like me and want things to be as correct as possible, I have outlined the problem and the solution. The industry fixed all these problems initially, by watering down the 10mm ammo over the last several years. The watered down 10mm ammo does not generate the pressure/recoil to open the breech face early. If you want the full powered 10mm ammo we make, you simply need to tweak your pistol. Or just realize that you are getting some fairly high extreme spreads and ignore it or live with it."

I learned some things.

1) I swapped out the standard recoil spring for a non-captive Wolff guide rod and #22 lb spring...it ran flawlessly with all ammo.

2) I like 10mm....a lot! Water filled milk jugs, water soaked telephone books, very thick polyethylene pads.....all had incredible and violent damaged inflicted on them. Bigger boom/snap than 9mm but very controllable.

3) I was shooting Georgia Arms new "Canned Heat" 180 gr FMJ (1100 fps) range ammo, Hornady 155 gr HP using an XTP bullet (1265 fps), and Buffalo Bore's 180 gr JHP (1350 fp). The GA stuff was excellent range ammo....accurate and pretty powerful. The Hornady was excellent though I wanted some of the 180 gr stuff....but the 155 gr would be excellent for SD. The biggest disappointment was the Buffalo Bore. The stuff was explosive....it damn near vaporized the water jugs. The issue? They stopped using Speer Gold Dots bullets for whatever reason and it shows. Every bullet that I recovered had complete core and jacket separation. Sometimes the separation started before it made it thru a single jug of water.

This was my 1st shot....just shooting at a single water soaked telephone book with thick pads behind it.

The entrance...lower right:


The exit:






Then I moved to shooting thru a milk jug filled with water....backed by the soaked phone book....then backed by 12" thick poly pads.

That is when the disappointment started. I was digging fragments out of the milk jug, the phone book and the pads. The bullet started to come apart almost immediately.

This was typical of what I found:




Fun day of shooting. I am sold on 10mm....I will be testing some Double Tap stuff next.

Yes,
Their is nothing like the original.
I hope to load some of my Norma brass and try to match the velocities using Speer GDBHP's.
Any recommendations on what type/burn rate powder Norma might have used?

Here is a link for some inexpensive brass cased, boxer primed 180 gr. JHP's:
Prvi Partizan PPU 10mm 180gr JHP 50rd Box

Regards,
BM1

As for handloads, my favorite load for bowling pins in my S&W 610 is 9.5 gr. Longshot under a Montana Gold 180 gr. flatpoint and Winchester lg. pistol primer. NOTE! this is used in a 610 revolver not an auto but is listed as a max load in the latest Hogden manual. My crono shows figures hovering around 1350 FPS out of the 6 1/2" barrel.
Caution, this is listed as a near max load.
Sure does a job on the pins.

I've had great succes using HS-6 and IMR 800-X powder in my reloads , 800-X doesn't meter worth **** out a trickler so I have hand measure out each load . It well worth the time since I can push my loads out to near max without excessive pressure signs . Another long time reloader suggested I look into using Accurate AA9 for near nuke loads and using Vihtavuori N350 powder for accuracy loads due to is gentler recoil impulse . Unfortunately I haven't had the time or resources to try either .

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39-2,59,3913,M&P40
1006,1066

Unless you just like it, shoot light loads for practice, but carry your "best" load...the same as you would with a .357 and .38.

You'll never catch me abusing, maligning or otherwise defaming "light" FBI loads.

They are one of the beauties the 10mm possesses: Light stuff doesn't over-batter the gun, yet it steps up to handle the heaviest stuff out there.

Why subject the gun to needless wear and tear -- even if it's designed to handle it -- and even if you don't immediately see any appeciable damage?

Seriously, why?

As has been pointed out already, Smith 10mm 3rd Gens are long, long, long out of production -- and even though they're built like a tank, would anybody with any sense keep slamming their "tank" full speed into a wall -- just because it's a "tank"

So why needlessly beat your gun up? It doesn't make much sense to me...

We need three levels of 10mm -- light at 950 fps, medium at 1050-1150 and full throttle -- beyond 1300 fps.

As 10mm fans, we ought to lobby -- and lobby hard -- for ammo manufacturers to continue making light loads -- such as the El Dorado Starfire and Federal Hydrashok -- as well as the Winchester Silvertip.

They definitely have their place -- and they DO provide pretty fair stopping ballistics in their own right.

In close up encounters with humans, I've feel about as well protected with either Starfire or Hydrashoks as anything else. Still, I "carry" Winchester STs.

Two reasons for me:
1. practice with what I carry
2. because I can

But, I rarily shoot 38 from a 357 either (I have 38's for that). Ditto with underloaded 10mm. I have plenty of 40's. I will never buy a box of sub-loaded 10mm, although I a fan of ST's and Hornady XTP's.

As for DoubleTap, I would shoot them and see if you like them and how your pistol handles them. I don't own a 10xx yet, but have fired plenty through my Delta Elite and Dan Wesson Commander. Even with a heavy spring (26#) I think that the DT's are a little much out of the Commander. You will know if the brass lands 50' away

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NRA Certified Instructor

By the way, I didn't say don't "practice" at all with your carry load.

Obviously, you should be completely familiar with your regular, carry load.

It's just that all your shooting with full-house loads all the time -- even when plinking -- does wear guns down -- needlessly -- in my view.