question 10 mm ammo double tap

Some of the ammo history here has been interesting. I will note that my comments upon loads/damage were from having a 1006 as an issue weapon for 15 years (bought mine when they were replaced) and observing both our experiences and those of a sister agency armed with the same weapon but different ammo. Admittedly, I can't swear the other folks were changing recoil springs when they should have.

Grown folks can do what they wish. However, if you find you're breaking things (safeties seemed especially prone for some reason), install a new, factory recoil spring and change your ammo. The majors may have changed their ammo specs for good reason.
 
WR You are right of course, "safe" is one thing, wear and tear another. The 10MM is a high pressure & high performance round. That is the reason I shoot it. There is no doubt in my mind that a high round count of the Norma type loads will wear things out and eventually break them. The 10MM certainly had that affect on the Delta Elite.
On the other hand I may never hit the high round counts you experienced. I have had my 1006 for nearly 20 years. I doubt if it is at 5000 rounds yet and shows almost no wear, but of course it could break tomorrow.
If it was a duty weapon that would be a very serious problem as it is hopefully I will be able to find parts. I wonder why safeties break?

This may be a case similar to the K frame .357s, a steady diet of .357 loads over a protracted period certainly caused problems with them.
Roger
 
One of the arguable problems with 10mm is that it has much variation in power level. Normal loads go from 175-180 grain bullets going from subsonic speeds all the way to 1350 FPS! To think a single recoil spring weight is ideal for all power level does not seem logical.

Wolff makes a recoil spring calibration pack. You start with the 22lb spring and work down. No surprisingly 17 lbs works great for lower and mid powered ammo, and makes for reliable feeding. 18, 19, and 20 are good for more powerful ammunition. They feed reliably and help manage the recoil.
 
If you see any subsonic Norma 10mm ammo, I would like to buy a box. I have NEVER heard the terms Norma, subsonic and 10mm used in the same breath until now.

As far as the recoil springs go, just because it says 10mm on the box does not make it real 10mm ammo. The round has been cut off at the knees by so many manufacturers that there is a fair amount of .40 S&W level ammo out there masquerading as 10mm. That said, until there is some of evidence of a problem, it's a better strategy to stick with the OEM spring.

;)

Bruce
 
I have the S&W1006 since early 1990, it use to toss the ejected brass to the 5 o'clock about 20' to 25' with the stock spring (18# for the 5" 10xx series). I did change the factory spring trying the 24#, 22#, 20# Wolff recoil springs. The 22# has been the spring that seems to work the best keeping the brass with in 8' or 10' right and back with my handloaded rounds. The gun runs flawlessly with any ammo I use.

One thing I did notice was how well this spring works using the Bar-Sto 40S&W conversion and 40 ammunition. It has even worked using a Bar-Sto 9x25Dillon conversion although performance wise these don't get the higher velocities as the guns with 6" barrels.

I will state that I found the 24# spring excessive, requiring a firmmer grip to rack the slide back. Not what I wanted especially in a stressful situation.

I really like these old 10xx series pistols...
 
I have fired quite a few rounds of DT 10mm in my Glock 20. It chronographs quite closely to what DT claims on their packaging. I haven't used it in my 1006. Spare parts being my main concern.
 
The reason I changed my recoil spring set up on my Glock G20SF. Not sure if the same holds true for your S&W autos.

From Buffalo Bore's website:
"Full power 10mm ammo has always generated enough recoil and pressure to require a pretty stiff recoil spring in your handgun - this of course depends on several variables such as your slide weight, etc. When the cartridge fires, it generates enough pressure/recoil to prematurely open your breech face in some guns. When this happens, the opening breech face has an effect on the burn rate of the powder. This can result in some fairly high extreme spreads in velocity. If you are experiencing extreme velocity spreads of more than 50 fps, simply install a stiffer recoil spring. For example, I have an original Colt Delta Elite. This gun with the factory spring runs extreme spreads of about 35fps with both of these 10mm loads. I am happy with 35 fps, so I leave the Delta Elite as is. I also have a custom built Para Ordinance with a Nowlin barrel. It runs extreme spreads of about 70 fps with its original recoil spring. When I install a spring that is 4 lbs stiffer, the extreme spread drops to about 35 fps. The new Glock model 20 comes with a recoil spring that allows the breech face to open too soon and my new Glock model 20 will get extreme spreads of about 100fps with the factory spring installed. When I go to a stiffer recoil spring, the extreme spreads drop to about 50 fps in my new Glock model 20. Of course none of this will be an issue in a revolver. None of this will be an issue in real life either, as these high extreme spreads don't hurt accuracy or function. However, I mention this because if you are like me and want things to be as correct as possible, I have outlined the problem and the solution. The industry fixed all these problems initially, by watering down the 10mm ammo over the last several years. The watered down 10mm ammo does not generate the pressure/recoil to open the breech face early. If you want the full powered 10mm ammo we make, you simply need to tweak your pistol. Or just realize that you are getting some fairly high extreme spreads and ignore it or live with it."

I learned some things.

1) I swapped out the standard recoil spring for a non-captive Wolff guide rod and #22 lb spring...it ran flawlessly with all ammo.

2) I like 10mm....a lot! Water filled milk jugs, water soaked telephone books, very thick polyethylene pads.....all had incredible and violent damaged inflicted on them. Bigger boom/snap than 9mm but very controllable.

3) I was shooting Georgia Arms new "Canned Heat" 180 gr FMJ (1100 fps) range ammo, Hornady 155 gr HP using an XTP bullet (1265 fps), and Buffalo Bore's 180 gr JHP (1350 fp). The GA stuff was excellent range ammo....accurate and pretty powerful. The Hornady was excellent though I wanted some of the 180 gr stuff....but the 155 gr would be excellent for SD. The biggest disappointment was the Buffalo Bore. The stuff was explosive....it damn near vaporized the water jugs. The issue? They stopped using Speer Gold Dots bullets for whatever reason and it shows. Every bullet that I recovered had complete core and jacket separation. Sometimes the separation started before it made it thru a single jug of water.

This was my 1st shot....just shooting at a single water soaked telephone book with thick pads behind it.

The entrance...lower right:
1130446053_A4XFP-L.jpg


The exit:
1130446324_vL6Zm-L.jpg


1130446459_3avSz-L.jpg


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Then I moved to shooting thru a milk jug filled with water....backed by the soaked phone book....then backed by 12" thick poly pads.

That is when the disappointment started. I was digging fragments out of the milk jug, the phone book and the pads. The bullet started to come apart almost immediately.

This was typical of what I found:
1130446579_EDWsZ-L.jpg


1130446732_vVnZU-L.jpg


Fun day of shooting. I am sold on 10mm....I will be testing some Double Tap stuff next.
 
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Some Norma

Yes,
Their is nothing like the original.
I hope to load some of my Norma brass and try to match the velocities using Speer GDBHP's.
Any recommendations on what type/burn rate powder Norma might have used?

Here is a link for some inexpensive brass cased, boxer primed 180 gr. JHP's:
Prvi Partizan PPU 10mm 180gr JHP 50rd Box

Regards,
BM1
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Norma10mm-200gr-1.jpg

Norma10mm-200gr-2.jpg

Norma10mm-200gr-3.jpg

Norma10mm-200gr-4-1.jpg

IMG_0499.jpg
 
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As for handloads, my favorite load for bowling pins in my S&W 610 is 9.5 gr. Longshot under a Montana Gold 180 gr. flatpoint and Winchester lg. pistol primer. NOTE! this is used in a 610 revolver not an auto but is listed as a max load in the latest Hogden manual. My crono shows figures hovering around 1350 FPS out of the 6 1/2" barrel.
Caution, this is listed as a near max load.
Sure does a job on the pins.
 
I've had great succes using HS-6 and IMR 800-X powder in my reloads , 800-X doesn't meter worth crap out a trickler so I have hand measure out each load . It well worth the time since I can push my loads out to near max without excessive pressure signs . Another long time reloader suggested I look into using Accurate AA9 for near nuke loads and using Vihtavuori N350 powder for accuracy loads due to is gentler recoil impulse . Unfortunately I haven't had the time or resources to try either .
 
Shoot light loads for practice...

Unless you just like it, shoot light loads for practice, but carry your "best" load...the same as you would with a .357 and .38.

You'll never catch me abusing, maligning or otherwise defaming "light" FBI loads.

They are one of the beauties the 10mm possesses: Light stuff doesn't over-batter the gun, yet it steps up to handle the heaviest stuff out there.

Why subject the gun to needless wear and tear -- even if it's designed to handle it -- and even if you don't immediately see any appeciable damage?

Seriously, why?

As has been pointed out already, Smith 10mm 3rd Gens are long, long, long out of production -- and even though they're built like a tank, would anybody with any sense keep slamming their "tank" full speed into a wall -- just because it's a "tank"

So why needlessly beat your gun up? It doesn't make much sense to me...

We need three levels of 10mm -- light at 950 fps, medium at 1050-1150 and full throttle -- beyond 1300 fps.

As 10mm fans, we ought to lobby -- and lobby hard -- for ammo manufacturers to continue making light loads -- such as the El Dorado Starfire and Federal Hydrashok -- as well as the Winchester Silvertip.

They definitely have their place -- and they DO provide pretty fair stopping ballistics in their own right.

In close up encounters with humans, I've feel about as well protected with either Starfire or Hydrashoks as anything else. Still, I "carry" Winchester STs.
 
Two reasons for me:
1. practice with what I carry
2. because I can

But, I rarily shoot 38 from a 357 either (I have 38's for that). Ditto with underloaded 10mm. I have plenty of 40's. I will never buy a box of sub-loaded 10mm, although I a fan of ST's and Hornady XTP's.

As for DoubleTap, I would shoot them and see if you like them and how your pistol handles them. I don't own a 10xx yet, but have fired plenty through my Delta Elite and Dan Wesson Commander. Even with a heavy spring (26#) I think that the DT's are a little much out of the Commander. You will know if the brass lands 50' away :)
 
By the way, I didn't say don't "practice" at all with your carry load.

Obviously, you should be completely familiar with your regular, carry load.

It's just that all your shooting with full-house loads all the time -- even when plinking -- does wear guns down -- needlessly -- in my view.
 
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