S&W Model 41 vs. Colt Match Target

Ljohns

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I want to share a comparison I did between the S&W Model 41 and the Colt Woodsman Match Target. I have owned the Colt for a long time. I just recently purchased the S&W on the advice of an out of state friend who has been shooting his in local competition with some success.

First I want to tell Forum members about my purchase experience. I purchased the S&W Model 41 used, from a Forum member, RkyMtn. After the purchase RkyMtn found a small cosmetic flaw on the trigger guard when he was cleaning the gun up for shipment. He e-mailed me immediately and offered to refund part of the purchase price if I still wanted the gun. His offer sounded satisfactory to me and I accepted. I told my local FFL about the deal. When he received the gun he called to tell me it had arrived and told me the flaw was very minor and hardly noticeable. In fact, he told me he would not even have noticed it if I hadn’t told him about it in advance. I would like to thank RkyMtn for the beautiful gun and the admirable way he handled the purchase. If any of you deal with RkyMtn I am sure you will find him honorable and very easy to do business with.

Second, I am not a professional marksman and don’t do any competition shooting. The shooting I do is purely recreational and I don’t profess to be an expert on these guns. I have no association with either manufacturer and you should take what I say here solely as my opinion.

Model41.JPG.w560h420.jpg


The S&W Model 41 has the 5.5” barrel. The fit and finish are excellent and it feels a lot like my Colt 1911. I’ve understand that is because they both have the same barrel to grip angle. Since I like shooting the 1911 I find this very pleasing. It has an ambidextrous grip. Since I am right handed that doesn’t mean much to me but it would be invaluable to a lefty. The grip is flat on the bottom and the clip is recessed so the grip provides a stable base for bench rest shooting. The spring compress button on the side of the magazine is a little small and the spring is a little strong which makes loading the magazine a little difficult. The magazine release is a button on the left side of the frame, again, just like the 1911. I found the gun well balanced, even with the shorter 5.5” barrel (there is a 7” available). It has a real heft to it and recoils very little with .22 cal. L.R.’s. It is a joy to shoot.

MatchTarget.jpg.w560h420.jpg


My Colt Woodsman Match Target was manufactured in 1962 and was passed down to me when my father passed away in the early 1980‘s. It is one of my favorite guns and I probably shoot it more than any other, except maybe the 1911. This gun has the 6” barrel. I find fit and finish on this piece comparable to the Model 41. It has been holstered so there is a hint of a rub mark on the barrel end. Overall it is a 98% gun. The factory supplied grip is built for right handers, which works for me. It has a natural feel in my hand and has a good balance. There is a fairly large button on the spring compression mechanism on the magazine and the spring is light, I like that. The magazine, however, has quite an angle to it and the shells are a tad difficult to load because of this. The magazine release on this series is a knob on the end of the frame. I find this a little cumbersome and it leaves a bump on the end of the gun that makes it somewhat unstable when using a bench rest. It has a good heft and feel but isn’t as heavy as the Model 41. It handles well and is still heavy enough to have very little recoil. I enjoy shooting this one as much as the S&W Model 41.

For this comparison I shot round nose, high velocity Remington Thunderbolt .22 Long Rifle cartridges. I used a homemade pistol bench rest that adjusts to fit either pistol perfectly. I went to a local indoor range and shot at 10 yds.I thought this to be a practical distance for shooting a hand gun and, like I said before, I’m no marksman.

I shot 10 shots through each gun and made some minor sighting adjustments to zero the pattern towards the center of the target. The purpose of this shoot wasn’t so much to hit the center of the bulls eye as it was to see what kind of grouping each gun would produce. I only shot a five shot pattern on each target.

Each gun performed well. They both shot 1” patterns at 10 yds. There was one “flyer” in each group or the pattern would have been even smaller.

SW41.jpg.w560h420.jpg


ColtTarget.jpg.w560h420.jpg


So, I’ve probably wasted all of our time with this review. I couldn’t pick one of these guns over the other for looks, feel, balance or accuracy. If you are torn between which of these guns is the best, it doesn’t make a rat’s rear which one you choose. They are both excellent guns and you will be satisfied with either one regardless of which one you take home.
 
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I've had three M41s and only one Woodsman M/T.

Sold the Woodsman when times were tight in college, would like to replace it, though, now that I'm retired and living high...
 
I bought a Woodsman Match Target new back in 1970, when I was single. Got married in 1972, and sold it the same year to buy milk, diapers, etc. I sold it for $75! I can think about it now without crying.
Now I'm retired and don't yet need to buy diapers for myself. Before I get there I intend to replace it, hopefully with one built the same year. But top break S&W's seem to get in the way.
 
Thanks for the kind words, Lloyd!

Were the flyers the first shots out of the guns? I was chatting it up with my gunsmith who did some on a competitors .22 and this guy stated that after he cleaned the gun barrel, he would have to shoot 50-75 rounds through it to get the groups to shrink down to cover a dime. The guy said he only cleans the gun barrel every 500 rounds or so. I'd be interested if this is the case with the 41 and Woodsman accuracy.
 
Thanks, I enjoyed reading your report. I believe the general consensus is that the 41 is the better gun for target shooting, but I've always wanted a Match Woodsman.
 
Nice shooting (and writing). The 41 always feels like a target gun to me, and the MT (even the 6") more like a heavy sport pistol, but they seem to shoot the same.
 
Great write up!

Personally, I think any comparison of the two is akin to the proverbial "which is better, Ford or Chevy?" debate.

Both are outstanding guns in their own regard. I have 2 M41's and a Browning Buckmark (heavy bull barrel target model), and the Buckmark can hold it's own too.

I'd love to happen onto a Colt Match Target at a reasonable price, but there is no longer such a thing, especially when it comes to handguns here in CA.
 
Nice writeup. Continue comparing ammo and then take them out a few yards, maybe to 25 to see how they compare.

I have a Colt WMT made in '68 and I had a 41 made in the 82. I compared them with about 15 different brands of ammo, shooing 10 shot groups at 10 & 25 yds (IIRC). Overall the Colt was the more accurate and also with the largest variety of ammo. YMMV. I too dislike the mag release on the bottom but I chose it over the 41 as my keeper.
 
Nice report, Ljohns, and two beautiful pistols. I especially like the factory grips on older 41's with the checkering wrapping around, the newer ones with the laminated grip panels are thicker and don't feel as good to me.

Most guys around here shoot their 41's with the CCI standard velocity (Blue Label). Give them a try, I think you'll shrink that group.
 
Interesting report. I would bet that an older Model 41 of similar early 60s vintage would show even better fit and finish. The early Model 41s are known for that.

I'll echo the suggestion to try some CCI Standard Velocity in you two guns and see if accuracy isn't even better.

Model 41 food:

aa43c4ad.jpg
 
Try the 41 with Eley 10X. The 41 is a superb match pistol; the Colt (and I do love the Colt) is a dated design for target shooting. Looks like you have a Bomar sight on the 41. An excellent rear sight on a great match pistol.
Bob
 
Thanks for the kind words, Lloyd!

Were the flyers the first shots out of the guns? I was chatting it up with my gunsmith who did some on a competitors .22 and this guy stated that after he cleaned the gun barrel, he would have to shoot 50-75 rounds through it to get the groups to shrink down to cover a dime. The guy said he only cleans the gun barrel every 500 rounds or so. I'd be interested if this is the case with the 41 and Woodsman accuracy.

Yes, the "flyers" were the first shot on the target.

Both guns were clean when I started and I only fired 10 rounds through each of them before I shot the groups in the photos. I did not clean the guns after the first 10 rounds.

I have a friend that shoots long range (1000 yds.) he swabs the barrel on his Remington 700 after every round.

This was my first try at such a thing. Next time I'll do things a little differently.
 
I want to share a comparison I did between the S&W Model 41 and the Colt Woodsman Match Target. I have owned the Colt for a long time. I just recently purchased the S&W on the advice of an out of state friend who has been shooting his in local competition with some success...

...I shot 10 shots through each gun and made some minor sighting adjustments to zero the pattern towards the center of the target. The purpose of this shoot wasn’t so much to hit the center of the bulls eye as it was to see what kind of grouping each gun would produce. I only shot a five shot pattern on each target.

Each gun performed well. They both shot 1” patterns at 10 yds. There was one “flyer” in each group or the pattern would have been even smaller...
“Ljohns”:

Great idea comparing the two guns and I, like everyone else here, appreciates your not only taking the time and effort to do so but to report the results back to us and all those who read this thread in the future.

First, let me say that I am nowhere as familiar with the Model 41 as a system as some of the people here on this site but I have shot the gun off and on for a number of decades. I have also had the opportunity to have shot several different Colts at length (Colts that varied by model and vintage) and more than a few High Standards (generally later model Citations and Victors). Lesser seen in the mainstream guns I have had the opportunity to shoot a bit include a couple of Pardini’s and a few Walther's and Hammerli’s.

One of the things I would suggest that you do (if possible) is, as “125JHP” suggests, to conduct the rest of your testing at a greater distance. While 25yrds might be the better number, having a place to do that isn’t always possible so a conventional 50ft length might not only be more in keeping with what many people are used to with such a gun (and can better relate to as a result) but it will also give you (and through your efforts, the rest of us) a better idea of what the guns are capable of.

I would also, as a number of people in this thread have already suggested, try as best you can to shoot comparisons with a number of different .22 rounds for we all know that specific “guns” (not just overall gun “models” or “families”) can really show a strong affinity for one brand of ammo or another and even one lot over another within a given brand. So trying to find sufficient test quantities from the same lot number is important too.

One of the interesting side issues regarding ammo is the feeling in some circles that today’s target grade stuff is not quite as “targety” as it once was. And no, this is not the grumblings of an old man who doesn’t believe that things “just aren’t like they used to be”. A number of formal target rounds aren’t even made any more and some people do feel that some of those that are left, just don’t perform “like they used to”. And the guys I know in this regard aren’t just grumbling old folks either but instead are a number of hands-on engineering types who are making barrels and accessories and are having trouble finding ammo that matches or exceeds the accuracy potential of the stuff they’re building. So they are concerned that they aren’t truly “wringing things out” in their tests.

But, getting back on track, the main reason I am writing you here is because of your and “RkyMtn”s” comments about “flyers”. I don’t mean to sound insulting (and I just might be misreading or misunderstanding your and his remarks) but I think you two might be confusing or unintentionally combining two possibly separate issues.

Having once been involved with one of the largest manufacturers of cleaning equipment in business, I had the opportunity to study the ways that “cleaning” the bore can affect the shot(s) following any such efforts or actions from a different perspective than I had previously from either shooting competitively or teaching both rifle and handgun techniques to others over the years. It is generally believed that any “cleaning” of the bore (wet or dry; aggressive or not) will have some effect on at least the first round fired after doing so. It is a complex topic with a lot of variables so I won’t bother you with it here. Just suffice it to say, that there is usually an effect on the next round(s).

But your first round fliers are more likely something else. And they are something that does get discussed in a lot of shooting circles. In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised if you did a search of this site, that you wouldn’t find at least a few posts (if not complete threads) about it. A broader search of the ‘Net will probably reveal all kinds of examples and even more reasons for it. And just a month or so ago, I saw that Wiley Clapp broached the subject in a general way in his online blog for the NRA’s American Rifleman Magazine (http://www.americanrifleman.org/blogs/first-shot-flyer/).

One of the Smith 22’s I owned had a rather large number of barrels that were fitted to it for me at the factory some number of years ago when both they and the receiver were new. I knew the man who did the work in the Service Department at the time so also included with the gun were a series of multiple-bull, rimfire test targets where all of the barrels were shot in one sitting; each into its own set of scoring/reference rings on a single piece of paper. The multiple target pages represented several trips back-and-forth to the range as “adjustments” were made back at the bench.

[Sidenote: The really neat thing about being able to shoot all the barrels at one time and on to the same piece of paper was that it not only allowed for immediate side-by-side comparisons of the barrels but barring shooter fatigue (and personally, I don’t think any of people involved ever got fatigued for the all of them seemed to shoot like machines in those days), most, if not all, of the other variables were also removed or greatly reduced in nature. Granted, the shooting was done on an indoor range at the plant so you never saw the variances in lighting, temperature and humidity that can occur outdoors BUT shooting all the barrels at one time, took the minimization of such things one step further and it also cut down on the shooter having a good day one day and a bad (or at least different) day the next. Furthermore, it was easier to assure ammo lot uniformity and the same-for-all-shots condition of the guns and its mags.]

I will tell you that those barrels were rifle-like in their performance but at the same time, each one of the five or six tubes exhibited a first round flyer. A condition that surprised no one for everyone involved in putting this “set” together for me had seen it before and all but expected it here. I got the impression that it was felt to be a mechanically-induced situation for much the same reason(s) that Mr. Clapp discusses in his short piece that I mentioned above. I’ve never been able to study it to the degree that I would like to but I (like others) believe that the first round is just chambered differently than the rest of rounds fired (because those other rounds are chambered as a result of firing) and that affects where the bullet goes when the first manually chambered cartridge is set off.

Sorry for the rambling dissertation but I just think that you have two things going on here. As such, I would do all I could to not “clean” the barrels during any given days testing unless it was absolutely necessary. And then I would do so only sparingly. I would also shoot any “cleaned” barrel a bit to “dirty” it to some degree before I started shooting it again for record.

Separately, I would watch for those first round flyers; chambering the first cartridge for a number of fired groups by cycling the pistol manually to load it. Then I would shoot a few groups where the first round is chambered by a part of the firing process. At least that might give you some idea of the overall (not specific) cause.

Finally, as the first round flyer would generally be present in most match shooting (at least where the first round is manually chambered), leaving it in your measurements would truly be more reflective of the gun’s tournament-type performance. However, for your records, you might want to record two dimensions for each group: one with it and one without; so that you also have a better idea of the gun’s ultimate potential.

Hope you found this of interest and perhaps at least a little help.
 
My experience is similar to LJohns. About a year ago I purchased a Colt Woodsman Match with the heavy barrel Series 2 made in 1951. A beautiful gun and the one I shoot the most. Within the last month I purchased a model 41, 5.5 or 6 inch barrel. Another beautiful gun. Not sure of the yr of mfg, SN 112xxx, but it has the cocking indicator. I've only shot it three times so far. No bench shooting. I find that I am more accurate with the 41 at 7, 10, 15 yards, but strangely more accurate with the woodsman beyond that say at 20 to 25 yards. It might just be I need more time with the 41.
 

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