The current issue of Handguns Magazine (Dec 2012/January2013 issue) did an empty chamber test to add data to the carry question of chambered or not. Using several different pistols and several different testers, they found to draw, rack the slide back to chamber a round, and fire, took an average of less than 1/2 second longer, than with having the round already chambered. Their only negative was having to use two hands to rack the slide. They discussed racking using the rear sight, if one hand was out of action. They found they could make racking easier for one handed racking by keeping the hammer/striker cocked, with an empty chamber, and not using a fully loaded magazine, to reduce the upward pressure of the cartridges on the bottom of the slide pick-up rail. Of course all their timings were in a test environment, not a real SD situation.

I carry loaded with my manual safety on. There is no right or wrong way to carry. Whether you use a manual safety or not. Whether you carry with one in the chamber or not. It is all up to personal preference. We are all individuals and each has their right to their opinion. The main thought is finger off the trigger until the decision to fire is reached.

Bob

Bob

I caught that story also and read it intently. I was really surprised that his conclusion was very little time difference
This issue has been covered here quite a bit

Me I feel so much more secure with a "thumb safety" I carry a 6906 or 1911 so this fits me. Its why I dont carry my Kahr
I also do most time carry without a round in the chamber this makes me feel safe but also glad that I can defend my family and myself if need be.

I believe that most here think I am silly even unprepaired
OK but I am a citizen with a CCW

I am not LE and trained to carry professionally. I know the reason that I love this site is there are many Law Enforcment officers who have been trained and didnt just read it on the net or learn it playing Mortal Combat. I learn from thier posts
I think many here are very comfortable with Striker fired weapons they are the experts I just do what I think will keep me and those around me safe and my gun is like a spare tire, I have one but I never want to use it

Hank

One in the pipe, safety off. I have a healthy respect for knives and the 21 foot rule.

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Un-Reconstructed Southerner

I fully agree. There is no correct way to carry - one in the pipe - empty chamber - fully loaded mag. - running your mag one short to save the spring - carry concealed - open carry etc. My opinion doesn't really matter to anyone else so I carry the way I am most comfortable and can safely operate my weapon. And besides, your going to get opposing opinion no matter what you do.

This subject has been beaten to death. It is up to the individual!!

ME, I would not bet my life on the system of racking the slide to load a round after the draw!!!

I have no idea how many things could go terribly wrong...........

I'll carry condition ONE............thank you.

One has to keep in mind that under extreme stress the body does not react normally, so that 1/2 second could turn into a 1/2 a minute. I always carry my CC pistol with one in the chamber an an extra magazine. I recommend you do the same.

We all operate within the boundaries of what we are comfortable with. As such, carrying with one in the chamber or not, safety on or not, striker fired or hammer fired, depends on our comfort zone.

I've seen these articles and discussions many times, but there is one inescapable fact that seems to be overlooked time and again. In a situation where you may need to react with your weapon, you are doing exactly that, reacting. The bad guy already has the advantage as he is the aggressor and is at that point already in attack mode. That 1/2 second may be the difference between a dirt nap and repelling his attack. You're already playing catchup by the time you draw anyway, so any advantage you have has to be in place ahead of time. Just some food for thought.

For me, anything less than one in the chamber is the same as none in the gun. But, that's my comfort zone choice.

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SFC, US Army, Retired

as posted above everything counts... for me i carry chambered hammer down. but i practice cocking the hammer one handed while drawing from my carry holster. i dont trust safeties, never have and never will, but if you have to use two hands your better off using it like a club, because if your jumped one hand may be guarding knife blows or a dog, one hand is cocking(or undoing the safety for others) simple and fast... but what ever method you use you train the same way everytime...

I'm not LE, but completely concur. I carry all of my weapons with one in the pipe. Depending on the gun, a safety may be deployed and usually it is when I am in open carry mode. Any other carry condition, safety OFF, round in the chamber and the weapon is ready to go. Why carry a hand weapon without a round in the chamber? We are talking SPLIT SECONDS in order to make a decision. Thinking about whether there is a round in the chamber or not is one thing I do not want to think about.

1911s, Cocked, locked, ready to rock.
The S&W 59, 659, 5906, 4006, and 645 would be carried, decocked and chambered.
Most likely failure in the heat of a problem is going to be a failure to feed properly. One already chambered gives you at least one shot before FTF.

For me it's a moot point. I carry a revolver with speed loaders and consider myself well armed.

I agree. I would not carry a defensive weapon without it having one in the chamber. I also will only carry a psitol without any exteranl safeties or hammer. Under stress I do do want any hangups nor searching for safties etc.

Goudy: Now is it not true that you sprang up on old man Wharton and his two sons with a deadly, six shot revolver in your hand?
Rooster Cogburn: I always try to be ready.
Goudy: Was this revolver loaded and cocked?
Rooster Cogburn: Well, a gun that's unloaded and cocked ain't good for nothin'.

If you (meaning the generic you not anyone in particular) really want to be safe you should consider carrying the pistol in a truly safe condition, EMPTY. Leave the hammer down on an empty chamber and the loaded mag in a pouch on the belt on the weak side. When you need it draw the pistol strong hand and the mag weak hand, insert mag, rack slide, and, if you have time, fire as needed.
If it is safety you are concerned about and you don't trust either yourself or your equipment perhaps you should consider carrying pepper spray instead of a gun.

Of course how anyone decides to do something is totally up to them.

I would opine that carrying a gun, for serious purpose, with an empty chamber, indicates a lack of training/confidence and perhaps a lack of knowledge of that handguns mechanical design.

If you have a handgun that you carry and are not confident enough to carry it with a round in the chamber, ready to perform as designed, perhaps you should find another type of handgun or maybe get enough training with that gun to be confident as well as proficient. Perhaps research the guns mechanical operation and built in safety features as well.

It is one thing to experiment in the safety of ones home or office for the purpose of writing an article for a gunrag. It is quite another to be suddenly accosted, perhaps from behind, at night, or in the rain, and try to recall - let alone perform - that neat quick racking method you saw in a gunrag - assuming you have two hands available to use while grappling with an assailant at close range. And assuming both your hands aren't injured or slippery with blood.

Lots of things can occur in reality, out on the street, that aren't taken into account by gunrag scribes pushing an agenda and trying to sell magazines. My 0.02

Anyways, do what works for you. Good luck! Regards 18DAI

S&W TDA guns, chambered, hammer down, and safety off. There is enough trigger weight that it is just as safe as a revolver.

Always one in the pipe. The test doesnt prove much. Both the parties were ready and knew what was coming, no one was caught of guard and no one was trying to hurt anyone. An actual assailant would move faster, harder and more aggressive. They also wont wait for you to be ready to defend yourself

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2

Exactly. Or in the heat of things you short stroke the slide and don't pick up a rd. Or it gets hung up and doesn't go completely back into battery. Or you're fending off your attacker with one hand while trying to draw and fire with the other. Or a host of other things that always seem to go wrong at just the wrong time.
Those knuckleheads get paid to turn in an article every month. Month after month it gets hard to come up with something new to write about and put down in "X" number of words. But sometimes instead of writing stupid stuff like in the referenced article and hurting what little credibility they have the authors should just tell their editors that they're out of ideas for that month. At least then we wouldn't have gun rags full of lame articles that someone reads and things it's a good idea.
I think the author of the referenced article is former USSS. Either he was out of ideas or it shows even the USSS sometimes hire those who aren't too bright.

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183rd FBINA

I had to use my weapon more than once during my 30 year LEO days and while it was a wheel gun, it set my perspective on this topic. Believe me when I say if you do not carry a round in the chamber, and carry for self defense, you're asking for trouble (I read the same article being referenced here).

In retirement I continue to carry a revolver. When and if I do carry a semiauto it always has a round chambered. Please understand that I am not looking to start an arugment and have nothing against those who carry w/o one chambered. I only wanted to give my perspective based on my experiences. Stay safe.

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Old Cop
LEO (Ret.)

^^^^^^^^^This! I choose not to bet my life on ANY autoloader! YMMV

I am no expert, however, in my LEO career I have been in a couple of O.I.S situations. So with real "time on the trigger" I offer you this.

Training including mental preperation, and lot's of time on the range saved my life and a whole bunch of citizens. Without going into a lot of detail, let me simply say that in one of the incidents I was charged by a subject with a edged weapon, and I had to draw and neutralize the threat. I truly believe, even with all my training, that if I would have had to "rack a round" into the weapon and then fire, I would not be typing my thoughts now. It happened that fast.....

Things in the real world change quickly and many times are not expected. You don't have the time to make decisions in order of what makes sense. 1) clear your outter garmet away if belt or iwb carry. 2) reach for your wepon of choice 3) draw your weapon 4) render it ready to fire (rack the slide)
5) point the weapon at the bad guy (s) 6) final shoot or no shoot mental process 7) fire till the threat is over. (Sometimes 6 & 5 are reversed, and in real situations it's a matter of draw and fire)

My point is simply this: There are thoughts on both sides of the fence on this issue and no real correct one. But, I believe that if any of the unecessary steps taken by you in a combat situation, it will give you a extra edge to survive. I suggest one in the pipe..

My opinion, yours may vary......................

I guess the debate is about safety but I feel safer when prepared to draw and fire without any additional required actions.
To each their own but I carry chambered, with my choice of carry being Glock, S&W revolvers (typically J-frames) followed by 1911. In that order of preference.

On duty I carry a round in the chamber but I carry my weapon in a level 3 holster. For off duty/CCW I do not use a secure holster and I do not keep a round in the chamber. I think it's safer for off duty/CCW carry, if you have an unsecured inside/outside the waste band holster, not carry a round in the chamber. I train to draw and chamber a round with my off duty/CCW guns. Since most people do not carry CCW secure you would have to plan and train for take-aways, drops or snags on the trigger. The time or motor skills necessary will be available when you need it if you incorporate chambering a round from your CCW holster on the range.


This is just my thought. I have carried on duty, off duty and CCW for 21 years. To date I have never had to draw a weapon in one of the off duty/CCW situations. I have carried several off duty/CCW weapons over the time. I tend to go with platforms without safeties and currently split my carry time between the Ruger LC9 and the S&W MP9c. They are not perfect and I am working in the S&W Bodyguard .380 for carry to. I am not sold on the .380 caliber yet. I like the concept of of the pocket gun and am looking at the .380 ammo available.


BB985

Neat thread. Lots of arguments and flaming about this on a couple of other forums. I can see a place for chamber-empty carry; it was sometimes necessary when I had a 1911 in Iraq. But most of us aren't bumping around in a Humvee for a living, or going in or outside the wire daily. For state-side carry, either as a cop or CCW, a chambered round is probably the way to go. Not a bad idea to train how to chamber a round quickly, but things are different for the ordinary cop or citizen, so a smooth, quick response (chambered) is usually needed. And chambering a round COULD cause a malfunction if done quickly under stress. One less thing to worry about if you're already chambered. I carry a 442 J-frame, so the chambered round thing isn't an issue with me.
Bob

Each gun in our SD/HD rotation is loaded with a round in the chamber (or cylinder) and is ready to go with no further action.

My wife is a mild 'enthusiast' and we have an assortment of guns that we take to the range for play time that vary from Single Action revolvers, DAO, TDA and SA pistols. We review the particular action of each gun before playing, and have a ball doing it.

My preference for a SD/HD gun has gravitated towards a 'revolver' type of action, making operation as much of a 'no brainer' as I can. The S&W 442 revolver, the S&W 3953TSW and SW40F pistols we use for SD/HD require similar actions to operate. We have every confidence that the gun will only fire by a pull of the trigger.

When not being carried, some (or all) will be concealed around the house, loaded and at the ready. We have agreed that the actions of take it from its holster or hiding place, point it at the threat, place a finger on the trigger, and pull is simple, straightforward, consistent and easy to remember. The size and shape of the guns are variable, but not significant.

Or a white flag.

Anyone remember "Moron Movies" on Johnny Carson? Funny little film clips a guy did, each just a few seconds long. Some with dialog, some only visual.

The one this thread reminds me of is "Tip For Murderers - Always keep your gun pointed at someone, in case it goes off."

Train like you will fight, then you will fight like you trained. Seconds, even split seconds count if your unfortunate enough to be put into a confrontation that involves drawing your weapon.

In the mid 80's, three F.B.I. agents lost their lives trying to apprehend some real low lifes, several were found holding empty brass in their hands or inside their pants pocket. That was the way they were trained, to never leave brass on the range.

It's a shame that several agents had to lose their lives before the F.B.I. realized that mistake.

How hard is it to short stroke the slide when someone is coming at you with a knife?

What's a half-second when someone is coming at you with a knife?

Gamecock: a half-second is too long. Way too long.
Don't forget, you also have to draw, bring your hands together, and grasp the slide at least halfway properly to rack it. All this while the fool (bringing a knife to a gun fight...jeez) is running at you.

As for carrying on an empty chamber: if you don't trust your weapon or yourself to carry a properly loaded weapon, then maybe you should reconsider carrying at all.

Training and practice, training and practice! You absolutely MUST train and practice with any firearm you carry. When my dept. went semi-auto in 1989, we were taught to keep one in the chamber, decocked for a DA semi or cocked and locked for 1911s. We've had a couple doofus ADs on the range in the years since, but no more ADs in public than we had with revolvers. Why? Training and practice! Nothing is more important - not your holster, not where you wear it, the type of gun - Nothing. You must know your weapon completely, draw safely and fire only as a last resort, and all that has to be second nature. (Then you have to keep your skills up with more practice...) No matter what your reason for carrying, it's very, very serious business, life-changing business. There's simply no excuse: prepare properly.

I always carry with one in chamber safety off.I shot DA revolvers for many years and have my CS9 converted to DAO.You must practice and practice more carrying in the way you usually do.Just having a S+W safety on,which deactivates in the opposite direction as the 1911,could lead in disaster if one forgets this when the fertilizer hits the ventilator.JMHO....Mike

A weapon without a round in the chamber is just a heavy object. People that worry about "safety" probably wear shoulder pads and a helmet in the shower and a 5 point harness when on the *******. Sheesh.

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Morality >religion

Excellent discussion. This forum rocks.

What y'all are making me think is not about one in the chamber or not (I carry ready to fire BTW).

Y'all are making me think 'Will I be ready and able to fire if necessary'.

I always pray I will have a second or two to decide if the situation is life or death, if I must fire or not, if what I do will be justifiable or not.

I trust my weapon with my life and carry it ready for its intended purpose. I will use the half second (if I have it) that could be spent chambering a round to decide if pulling the trigger is necessary or not, because I am about to change my life permanently.

LCP with one in the pipe or J Frame with all 5 loaded. If TSHTF there won't be time to rack the slide.

Condition 3 with Glocks because I'm not a cop or military, and I don't train extensively or shoot competitively. I might get surprised by a deadly threat some day that kills me because I'm fumbling to chamber a round. If I do, my grave stone can say "He should have known better."

I'm not a gunfighter, but I believe my chances of survival are better with a gun in C3 than without a gun. Please don't scold me or suggest I'm stupid, because I'm old enough to make this decision for me.

I'm not currently in LE, and when I was I did low impact sort of stuff. Which means I've never been in that sort of life or death high stress position. What I have been is in EMS for 33+ years. As a result, I have an analogy for how one might operate in a high stress situation.

I start a lot of IVs on people who it turns out probably don't need them. Why do I do that? Because if things go to **** all of sudden, it's one less thing I'll have to do and which I might screw up. It's also why I've wasted a fair number of defibrillation pads on people who I was reasonably sure weren't going to go into cardiac arrest. The reason for that is that if they DO go into cardiac arrest, I don't want to be scrambling to put the pads on while the patient dies in front of me. I've seen people press the CHARGE and SHOCK buttons on the cardiac machines only to get error messages because in their haste they forgot to put the pads on.

If it's not something you do every day (such as get in a gun fight) every extra step is just one more opportunity for Murphy to get a giggle at your expense.

For that reason, I keep the loaded magazine in the firearm, one in the chamber, safety/docker in the "fire" position. If I need that sucker I don't want to be squeezing the **** out of the trigger and my last sight on earth being the stupid docker in the "safe" position.

I know, I'm overly dramatic, but I've seen just about everything that can go wrong on an ambulance call go wrong, so I'm a firm believe in the simplest approach whenever possible.

YMMV and everyone should do what they think best.

I agree with the old saying...."Speed is fine but accuracy is final"...no matter what condition you carry in practice, practice, practice and when you think you have it all down, practice some more.

This question & subject has been asked & beaten to death a million times On every forum.The only way to carry any semi auto is with a chambered round,Now the people that are afraid to carry this way, I say carry a Revolver,Period. Without a round in the chamber all you have is an expensive "CLUB"

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AA

Some of the members here hit the nail on the head. Whatever way you carry your gun, if you are not practicing with that gun, and carry protocol like you mean it, then you might as well leave the gun at home. These magazines articles are written by people who go to the range and shoot these courses and guns at targets and then report it is only 1/2 second to rack the slide. I would love to get them on a range and really train these guys, where you bring the feud to their face. Actual speed using symunitions and then let them react. You would see how fast the 1/2 second goes out the window. Drawing a gun, racking the slide and firing a round at a target, is NOT the same thing as drawing a gun and saving your life. One can be done over and over until you get it down. You only get one shot at the other. Train like your life and the life of your loved ones depends on it. Because those are the reasons we carry a gun to begin with, not to write articles for magazines. Peace.

Blade

One in the chamber!

Safety is key and I feel safer knowing if only one hand is available for the draw it's ready to go!

There is so much "personal opinion" into this question - that what's right for me, I realize isn't necessarily right for others. So here's just my opinion.

This test was done in a non-life threatening situation. God forbid that it happens to anyone, but if and when it's necessary to use a firearm for self defense - the adrenaline, anxiety, and other emotional and physiological factors that can't be predicted is likely to alter fine motor skills.

This can be refined by practice, practice, practice and introducing muscle memory. For the vast majority of people, I doubt they, or I practice enough for that to happen. So, I think the least amount of necessary steps are preferable.

That's why my preferred SD pistol(s) have one in the chamber. I also lean to one that does not have an external safety for the same reason.

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M&PC FS BG Shield+ 642 686+

No doubt, some can train to chamber a round and fire accurately faster than others could fire an already chambered round, but I prefer not to. And then there are some guns I don't think I'd ever feel comfortable with a chambered round. I carry a Glock sometimes, and I know that a shirttail can make a Glock fire (happened to my son's coworker). All it took was a momentary lapse of attention of a highly trained agent.

It's a matter fo training and confidence. And sometimes the right fiream.

IMO, I don't think you can ever have enough of this topic. Sure, the answers are mostly the same, but it's an opportunity for more experienced folks to pass on some wisdom on arguably one of the most serious subjects on any forum. If it keeps someone from getting in a jam, then I'm all for it.

Somewhere in the thread someone mentioned about fine motor skills going out the window. Precisely correct. We were taught in the academy to grasp the slide and release it "slingshot" style. Why? Because after inserting a new magazine you will have difficulty finding the slide hold open (we were taught never to call it a release) due to the degradation of fine motor skills.

The 21 foot rule is real. That's something else we went through in the academy. Instuctors had rubber knives, cadets had ASP™ red guns. Not a single cadet beat an instructor. Moved it out to 25 ft. Instructors still won. Only at about 35-40 feet did cadets even start to get close. Even then success rates were MAYBE 25%. Let me tell you, even at 50 ft it was close. Keep in mind these were practiced assuming the pistol had one in the pipe. Time to draw AND rack the slide? No way......

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Un-Reconstructed Southerner

I got a Sig P229 DAK for this reason. With the 6.5 pound constant trigger I feel safe with a round in the chamber. Just like a nice S&W revolver, no safety as well, just point and shoot.

Bill

My younger brother (who is the most arrogant human being on Earth) was a Maryland State Trooper in his career. When the Maryland State Police changed over from revolvers to the Beretta 92F in the mid-'80s, I asked his opinion of the new pistol. His answer: "If I can't hit somebody with six rounds from a revolver, I've got no business being a police officer." :-)

Let me assure you that the USSS normally hires bright people... :-)

I am one proud dad!

Id have to go with one in the chamber at all times. Things tend to change in a high stress situation for me at least.
Living here in Nebraska where the law states flee at all costs and not even allowed to protect your home or possessions is kind of touchy subject.

It can be a lifetime...

I'll bet that Hanguns magazine will be positively FLAMED for posting a an article such as this and it will be well deserved. Think about it, with a lot of practice you can get down to about 1.5 seconds from start of draw to first shot. If you want to add an additional 1/2 second to that time IMO you are FLAT OUT NUTS. That half a second is enough to be the difference between life and death.

I've never been very impressed with Handguns magazine and it's because they'll suggest practices such as this. We are not being "well served" by articles that suggest practices that really aren't very wise and this isn't the first time I've seen some dim witted articles in Intermedia's magazines.

I would suggest that anyone who isn't comfortable carrying with a round in the chamber re-think their choice of carry firearm. I happened to choose a Sig Sauer for my carry choice specifically because I find the rather heavy DA trigger for the first shot to provide me with enough security to feel comfortable. Others might find a thumb safety provides them with the security to carry with one in the chamber and there isn't anything wrong with that. Point is, choose a weapon that allows you to be confident carrying with one in the chamber, don't carry an unloaded chamber because you made a poor choice for a carry gun.

I carry one in the chamber. In a confrontation I want to be able to draw and point without thinking about racking.