Discussion : 645 & 4506 vs 1911 ? 2nd & 3rd gen better?

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TripPowers

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Ok before everyone gets all crazy. This subject came up with a friend who has recently joined the shooting world . Keep it friendly please . My friend went & spent 830 before taxes on a Kimber ss model new with fixed black sights . This is all without consulting me . He has shot a handful of times & this is his first firearm purchase . To make matters more complicated I would say he is clumsy at best.

Him coming over was my first experience with the legendary 1911 of which I lusted for long ago ( before I found my 645 ) . After our shooting & cleaning experience I have a strong opinion that the smith double action safery/decocker is a far more simple , safe , reliable platform for the 45acp. The 19 11 is beautiful , but for a daily carry for someone untrained it is a daunting task . I could tell he was unsure , if not scared to carry it locked and cocked . After all he left the house with it fully unloaded , I'm glad he has respect for it but at the same time I wouldn't spend over 800 bucks to punch paper & not protect myself. Thoughts opinions ?
 
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I see plenty of people carrying 1911, cocked and locked, and when I do, I always wonder if they have been properly trained. Personally, I do not feel comfortable carrying a pistol cocked and locked for self defense purposes. First, I don't want to fumble around with the safety and second of all, I want my first trigger pull to be long and heavy. I want there to be no doubt in my mind that I meant to pull the trigger. This is the same logic that prevents me from carrying a striker fired pistol. For this reason I prefer the 3rd gen S&W battery of arms.

This is a very personal choice and by no means a black or white issue. There are distinct disadvantages to the S&W DA/SA decocker configuration. It all depends on the intended philosophy of use of the pistol.

Andrew
 
Very well put Andrew , those are the answers I really enjoying hearing. Well thought out. I wish more people put out there put that much thought & consideration into this subject . I wish my friend would have.
 
While I agree that it is a training issue to properly employ the 1911 as a carry gun, I am also of the opinion that the 645 and 3rd gen 45XX's are simpler, safer and far more reliable than most 1911's. Particularly Kimber 1911's.

In the interest of full disclosure I have owned three Kimber 1911's over the years and still own one, a Stainless Target II, simply because I can't dump it in good conscience as the frame was made out of spec. It only works partially using Chip McCormick mags.

I find Kimber 1911's to be over hyped, over priced, rusting single shot 45's which are pretty to look at. I will never own another.

That said I own some Colt and Springfield 1911's. Nice pistols for the range. I won't carry one for serious use as I am better served by either a 4566, 4506-1 or my 645. Which I find easier to shoot accurately, less maintenance intensive and bet your life reliable - unlike my 1911's. My 0.02 Regards 18DAI
 
645 and 4506 vs 1911

My opinions and practices differ. I own two Kimbers, one Rock River Arms Commander and I previously owned a Colt GM Series 70, all in .45 acp. I have found them all accurate and reliable. I carried the Series 70 as a municipal LEO. I own a Glock and carry a Sig 228 on duty, so I feel comfortable in voice my opinion on this subject.

1911s are reliable, accurate and powerful defensive weapons. However they do require more training and time at the range to use safely than striker fired (Glock, XD, MP) or decocker style (SIG and S&W 645) weapons. The trigger pull is lighter and understress, real or imagined, you can discharge a round before you are ready.

I don't consider carrying cock and locked a liability, however you do have to be aware that if you were the wrong style of holster the weapons safety could be brushed off getting into or out of a vehicle. If you choose to carry a 1911, you must build in the muscle memory to check the status of the thumb safety.

Glocks, XD, and decocker style (SIGS and S&W 645/4506) are great weapons have their pluses and minuses, as do 1911's.

To me it all comes down to how much time you will spend on training and range time. For me, I will continue to carry the 1911 cock and lock and feel safe doing so. To each is own.

2Guns
 
I carried a 1911 for years as a military officer. Normally carried condition 3. As a civilian I carry condition 1. There is a lot to be said for the DA revolver for folks like your friend. Actually nothing wrong with a revolver for anyone. A bit more difficult to conceal perhaps but simple manual of arms. Just my 2 cents.
 
2 guns I agree completely. A gun being very mechanical in nature it suits us as it would any machine operator ( from heavy to small ) to educate & practice with the item they intend to use. Most mistakes in factories , on the road or even in the firearms world are made by people with a lack of knowledge , respect & or properly practiced training . Now there are dumb luck & other variables in the mix ...

But for a person like yourself the 1911 is as you described & not that it matters but I have no qualms with someone trained (pike yourself ) carrying any weapon . Hell in the hands of a fool any gun could be a liability & I'm almost glad my friend got what he did which i imagine is gathering dust somewhere instead of him with a loaded "more simple & safe " weapon & relying on the safety devices ( which can and will fail ) to be his savior instead of proper gun safety .

What I mean by most of this is , it's sad that the gunbroker & his rich buddies pushed him to spend so much on his first pistol & is now in a sink or swim situation in dire need of water wings.
 
My thanks to you folks for your insight on this subject. A dear friend of mine is preparing to make a similar decision in regards to his EDC weapon (he carries a Seecamp as of now). He is looking at both a used Sig 938 (1911 style SAO 9mm 7+1), and a S&W Model 669. He owns a beautiful S&W Model 59 (safe queen), so he's familiar with the breed. I carry a S&W 469, so you know where I sit, but I realize this is an extremely personal decision, and I want him to have as much information as possible to assist him with his decision. I forwarded the link to this discussion so he could read your input on this subject. Once again I am indebted to the people on this forum.
 
Epj My first revolver/ firearm was a no dash model 66 smith & wesson 357 mag . It resides nicely by the bed . I have a love for the simplicity , accuracy & feel of revolvers . Your completely right and could you imagine the choices you'd have for $830.00 plus tax as a budget ? Thanks for your two cents also & yeah concealment ain't all that easy but with the variety of clothing & holster options It's not too terribly inconvenient to carry .
 
There is nothing wrong with the alloy frames , I've seen some crazy stories on this forum regarding extreme wear but i think it was in excess of 5000 rounds or more ? I really like the Ruger P 89/85 & 90 but i prefer steel . I have a 659 that's become quite a project.
 
As an owner of several 1911s and S&W 645, 59, 659, 5906, 4006, CS40, and a Sig P226 MK25, the 1911s get carried and the S&Ws are mostly for the range. Muscle memory training for the safety on a 1911 isn't that far different from the S&Ws. Down on the 1911 safety to fire and up on the decocker on the S&Ws to fire. But as the only Kimber I own is a 1911 ARF .22, it is strictly a range gun.
 
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