Why would my .22 rounds be tumbling?

Larks · Jun 20, 2015

The ammo is CCI SV out of my relatively new M41.

I clean the M41 thoroughly after each shoot and also give the ammo a bit of a clean with WD40 to get rid of the wax - all aimed at minimising the chances of ejection failure.

I've also recently swapped my recoil spring to the 6.5lb spring (from Wolf), however this tumbling has been occurring prior to that change as well.

Not all rounds are tumbling but certainly quite a few. Here are a few pic's though there were others that were even more obvious:

and just to show that they don't all tumble:

grif684 · Jun 20, 2015

It can only be caused by a bad barrel. A damaged muzzle or severely worn rifling.

Larks · Jun 20, 2015

grif684 said:
It can only be caused by a bad barrel. A damaged muzzle or severely worn rifling.

It's only a few months old, maybe a 800-1000 rounds and it's been babied since I bought it so any barrel issues would be build defect, but i can't see anything obvious. It's otherwise accurate and I've been doing pretty well with it in the comp's (I won the rapid fire comp' this morning despite the tumblers).

I plan to run a box of SK Standard Plus through it tomorrow to see if it may be the ammo???

IraIII · Jun 20, 2015

Try some different ammo, 22's are notorious for liking certain kinds of ammo and not others, although the m41 is a topnotch pistol and I have not heard of this from them.

Camster · Jun 20, 2015

Is the bore leading?

scooter123 · Jun 20, 2015

One thing that bothers me a LOT is that you are "cleaning the wax" off your bullets. That wax is a lubricant intended to PREVENT LEADING in your barrel. So, one distinct possibility is a badly leaded barrel.

As for your statement that you are careful about cleaning your pistol, that statement may not be as accurate as you believe. One thing about 22 caliber firearms is that it's not as easy to patch these barrels using a Jag as it is in a larger caliber. As a result of this many will run a bore snake thru their barrel and call that good. If you have leading in your barrel that has built up slowly over time you may not notice that your barrel has leaded up because the increase in effort for pulling the bore snake through has increased gradually.

I would suggest that you purchase a 22 caliber brass cleaning jag and some 22 caliber patches and take the time to patch your barrel. At the same time you'll want to purchase several 22 caliber bronze bore brushes. Note, the steel "tornado" brushes sold by some shops may work faster but I would NEVER use a steel brush in any of my barrels so take the time to find BRONZE brushes.

Note, I've found that I have to trim 22 caliber patches to a octogon shape to get the jag into the barrel without using a hammer, standard patches are just a tiny bit too large. If you find that your cleaning patches are getting shredded in your barrel you have a barrel that is badly leaded up.

This means about 8-12 hours of scrubbing with bronze bore brushes until it's perfectly clean. Note, not kidding about the time required because I've been there done that. I can also tell you that you'll know when you have that barrel perfectly clean when you can patch the barrel without feeling any rough spots AND your patches come out perfectly clean. BTW, if it sounds as if I am speaking from experience you would be correct, because I've been there done that. In my case it was with a 357 Magnum with some Blazer LRN that leaded the barrel horribly.

Murdock · Jun 20, 2015

Had a bad day at the range many years ago while still on active duty. Our Navy range issued Winchester T22 ammo, which I was using in my M17 revolver. Those were the days: free ammo!

My rounds were all over the target. Couldn't understand why until I saw the target up close and noticed the tumbling. Bad, bad leading.

The M41 is a very high quality gun, and I am confident that you are taking good care of it. As posted above, DON'T clean the lube off, and do try other ammo, preferably jacketed.

k22fan · Jun 20, 2015

Larks,

I don't know the cause in your case but a gentleman that could not effectively compete in last week's bullseye because his .22 LR was key holing solved his problem by getting the lead out of his barrel. He shot above his average this week.

If as you say your barrel is clean and multiple varieties of .22 key hole your 41 needs warranty repair. No offense but a 41 is out of place in modern matches that emphasize rapid fire. S&W used to warranty repair 41s that could not be made to hold 2" groups at 50 yards. That's what you paid a four digit price for.

Scooter,

Most members forget an X-wife faster than you can get your bad experience with soft swagged lead out of the front of your memory. Real Hoppie's #9 with benzine was pretty darn good at loosening leading if you gave it a long soaking time. Second generation Hoppie's #9 that lacked the benzine was nearly worthless by comparison. #9 went from being my go to bore solvent to being just another marginal solvent. My wild *** guess is that removing the ammonia to create the current third generation Hoppie's #9 made it even less effective but I have not used it. I've been told home made Ed's Red Lead solvent is better at loosening lead than anything you can buy. I put off makes some for so long that I forget the formula. It's pretty well known so most likely a member will post it. M-Pro 7 solvent works fine for the minimal amount of leading I've dealt with in recent years. Incidentally, the local gentleman I mentioned used elbow grease and JB Bore Cleaner, which, IIRC, contains an abrasive.

Larks · Jun 20, 2015

scooter123 said:
One thing that bothers me a LOT is that you are "cleaning the wax" off your bullets. That wax is a lubricant intended to PREVENT LEADING in your barrel. So, one distinct possibility is a badly leaded barrel.

As for your statement that you are careful about cleaning your pistol, that statement may not be as accurate as you believe. One thing about 22 caliber firearms is that it's not as easy to patch these barrels using a Jag as it is in a larger caliber. As a result of this many will run a bore snake thru their barrel and call that good. If you have leading in your barrel that has built up slowly over time you may not notice that your barrel has leaded up because the increase in effort for pulling the bore snake through has increased gradually.

I would suggest that you purchase a 22 caliber brass cleaning jag and some 22 caliber patches and take the time to patch your barrel. At the same time you'll want to purchase several 22 caliber bronze bore brushes. Note, the steel "tornado" brushes sold by some shops may work faster but I would NEVER use a steel brush in any of my barrels so take the time to find BRONZE brushes.

Note, I've found that I have to trim 22 caliber patches to a octogon shape to get the jag into the barrel without using a hammer, standard patches are just a tiny bit too large. If you find that your cleaning patches are getting shredded in your barrel you have a barrel that is badly leaded up.

This means about 8-12 hours of scrubbing with bronze bore brushes until it's perfectly clean. Note, not kidding about the time required because I've been there done that. I can also tell you that you'll know when you have that barrel perfectly clean when you can patch the barrel without feeling any rough spots AND your patches come out perfectly clean. BTW, if it sounds as if I am speaking from experience you would be correct, because I've been there done that. In my case it was with a 357 Magnum with some Blazer LRN that leaded the barrel horribly.

When I say I'm careful about cleaning - take it on faith that I mean what I say. I too have "been there done that" and am reasonably confident that I'd have as much experience as yourself in this area. (I've never used a bore snake in my life - pull throughs in the early days of military service yes - but never a bore snake)

My suspicion now is that the removal of the wax from the CCI SV's, which had been recommended due to the M41 ejection failure issue, may be reducing the lubrication and effecting the velocity sufficient to cause the tumbling.

Tomorrow's trials may shed more light.

GaryS · Jun 20, 2015

I had a similar problem with my Model 18 when using lead ammo. For some reason the gun just didn't like the brand I was using. I switched to jacketed .22 and have had no problems since.

That would be my guess as to what's going on in your case.

Larks · Jun 20, 2015

Camster said:
Is the bore leading?

No, as clean as a new barrel.

Comrad · Jun 20, 2015

Those targets look like recycled paper and the fibers are tearing out. Try something different, maybe a paper plate.

kantuck · Jun 20, 2015

It's not the targets. Even official NRA ,etc., targets are made out of toilet paper or the NY Times or similar. I shot smallbore prone for many years and you never take off the rimfire lube! You do learn how to properly clean a .22 barrel! Ejection problems are perhaps intrinsic to that gun. Well known amongst .22 target shooters that a certain brand,lot, etc., of ammo is shooting well. Even when shooting at .22 100 meter prone targets, bullets drift, not tumble! Most experienced shooters have a level of known expertise thus any deviation on ammo or scores, is either luck of the day-like any competitive sport- or the ammo. Tumbling was never something I've seen on a good .22 firearm unless a worn out barrel . Common-maybe- when I was a kid as many of us shot old,abused worn out barrel .22 rifles to hunt.
Clean the barrel, ditch the WD40 and try again.

s&wchad · Jun 20, 2015

Comrad said:
Those targets look like recycled paper and the fibers are tearing out. Try something different, maybe a paper plate.

I agree, it looks like the targets are tearing out. I see it at our indoor range quite frequently. Try backing a target with a piece of cardboard and see if you get different results.

hoc9sw · Jun 20, 2015

Larks said:
My suspicion now is that the removal of the wax from the CCI SV's, which had been recommended due to the M41 ejection failure issue, may be reducing the lubrication and effecting the velocity sufficient to cause the tumbling.

I could see wanting to clean up Rem Thunderbolt (they create some really nasty leading after 100 rounds or so), but I'm very happy with CCI SV in my .22 Compact and 10/22. Would never occur to me to need to clean them off.

How many rounds are you firing before seeing issues?

4barrel · Jun 20, 2015

You might measure the bullet. I had a problem with my 22 mag rifle last year trying some new bullets. When I measured them different brands were .221 to .224. My old Winchester 40gr. .224s grouped the best. I was disappointed in the new plastic tip faster bullet that was .221.

Larks · Jun 20, 2015

Here's what I can categorically rule out immediately:

- It's not the targets (targets are backed with corflute and I'd initially thought it was where it hit over a patch or over torn out backing, but this occurs on new as well as patched targets and over fresh undamaged corflute)
- It's not lead build up in the barrel (or any other cleaning issue)
- It's not a worn out barrel
- It's not a damaged barrel

So with what seems to be left I'm hoping that it's an ammo issue, and preferably the cleaning of it with WD40, rather than any sort of build defect in the barrel.

I'll report back after doing some ammo testing tomorrow.

MichiganScott · Jun 20, 2015

scooter123 said:
One thing that bothers me a LOT is that you are "cleaning the wax" off your bullets. That wax is a lubricant intended to PREVENT LEADING in your barrel. So, one distinct possibility is a badly leaded barrel.

My thoughts exactly. If you are worried about wax buildup causing ejection failure, switch to a copper/brass washed bullet. It's doubtful that you would notice any decrease in accuracy.

I just cleaned two .22's that did not appear to have any lead fouling. When I got done brushing them I had quite the pile of lead slivers on my bench.

There is no such thing as a worn out .22LR barrel. Damaged maybe, worn out, no.

LittleCooner · Jun 20, 2015

Agree with MichiganScott. No such animal as a worn out 22 rimfire barrel. Damaged, yes, worn out, no.

Also have spend many hours over the course of several days removing all the lead from purchased used rimfires. It takes hours of hard work on may layers of lead. They look clean and lead free. Then you clean them again and more lead come out. The proof that its all out is a trip to the range as most of the barrels accuracy is great for the type and grade of rimfire firearm they were sold original.

Its only lead free when you clean it the next day and no lead come out when using one of those lead removal patches. If you run a "Kleen Bore Lead Away" patch thru your "clean lead free barrel" and it still shows signs of lead in the bore, sorry to break your bubble, but your bore is leaded and needs cleaning.

Hint, stop removing the lube from you bullets. Its like draining the oil from you car engine. May work find now, but somewhere in the not to distant future, you will experience function outside the normal design parameters.

1917-1911M · Jun 20, 2015

Your rounds aren't being stabilized for some reason. The mostly likely reason...lead. If the barrel ever performed perfectly then it isn't the barrel. I would recommend changing ammo and leave the WD40 at home. It has no purpose on a firearm of any kind. Want a good, thin lubricant....get a can of Remington Remoil. The wax is a lubricant, don't remove it. The purpose is to minimize leading. I can't tell from your pictures that the rounds are "keyholing" which is what unstabilized rounds do, they hit sidewise instead of head on. Lead is hard to remove and since it shines up....can be difficult to notice in a barrel. It is unlikely you have damaged the barrel. They are tough, tough, tough. Of course if the pistol has performed in this manner from new...the barrel might be defective. But don't rule out lead or ammo issues.

I find a cardboard box shows exactly how my rounds are entering the target. Good luck. M1911

Why would my .22 rounds be tumbling?

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