I personally haven’t put enough rounds through any of my S&W pistols that have Briley bushings to see an impact. But recently I’ve seen pictures of PC pistols that look like the the TiN has, well worn off. This can be seen on frontal views and I just can’t imagine that the internal bearing surface looks any better.

What do you call a Briley bushing that isn’t TiN coated anymore and what is the value of it at this point? I’m NOT putting them down, (when new,(?)) but are they still useful after they wear? Are there replacement bushings available? They’re “hand fit” so would that be an issue too? I guess I can contact Briley for the current/best answer but I thought I’d run it by here first.

Jim

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I doubt that you could actually wear out the insert, but if the gauge in the insert became overspec in size, you could just purchase a new insert (ring) for the bushing....or a new bushing/ring combination if necessary. They come in .001" increment sizes.

Briley MFG - 1911 Auto Spherical Ring Only

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Ret. LE, FA Instr, S&W Armorer

OK that makes sense to me.

When/if the TiN is gone, it’s still good to go, correct? As long as the ring is within tolerances.

Thanks for the reply. I’ve always had the assumption that Titanium Nitride, even in a “coating”, would be harder and longer lasting than the barrels it’s surrounding. Just wondering about the benefit now of the TiN coating in the long run.

Jim

I believe so, as long as the tolerances stay within acceptable limits.

These are a gunsmith's dream BTW, as once the pre-fitting is done, the final fit between the bushing ring insert and the barrel is completed by polishing the barrel. The final result.....there is no front gauge at all at the barrel/bushing interface.

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Ret. LE, FA Instr, S&W Armorer

Sure of course. I really do understand. As a kid I originally was into Colt .45’s, (and still am I suppose,) and enjoyed fitting parts including bushings and everything else that I got intentionally “over size” or “undersized”.

I’m still just curious about the “magic” of the Briley bushings.

Once the Titanium Nitride is worn off and or gone, what is going on? I guess a Briley spherical bushing that’s no longer TiN coated is still an optimal choice.

Jim

Ive got a 98 PPC9 that has to have over to 150,000 round through it . Ive never noticed any wear when I clean it (never really looked). No loss of accuracy though just took it out to sight in for bullseye distinguished. Still does about 1.8 " at 50 with 147 gr. I will have to look at the bushing close. The only problem Ive ever heard is the bushing coming loose. I keep them lubed up.
I was walking back fom the line at Nationals once and found one at the 50 yard line. Stuck it on my little finger. When I got back to our camp no one was missing theirs. Then a guy at the camp next to ours yelled out the he had lost his. I made a mandrel out of brass and check mine from time to time. I never thought of trying to buy one.

All the numbers you just posted pop the eyeballs out of my head!!!

Can you share your 147 grain load that does so well? Every detail if you don’t mind... case, primer, bullet, powder & charge, COAL? I haven’t yet tried a 147gr in any of my PC 9mm pistols.

I talked to BMCM about this. From memory he said that the way you would know if it had gotten worn was a decrease in accuracy. And it would be the barrel that had worn. The solution would be to replace the bushing with one that was smaller internal diameter.

I have some ill look and see what they look like later.... my most recent shorty 40 there is no TIN on the outside of the bushing, only the inside... ill look at others as well and look. Some I have had they are obviously worn but not enough to affect anything....

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This is the way....

A friend of mine works at a plant that does nitride coatings. The military spec’s it for aircraft parts and cannon barrels and it supposedly increases the life of the parts substantially.

TiN is an ultra-thin coating (1 - 5 microns) that actually changes the properties of the base metal below the surface. It makes it harder than carbide (somewhere around Rockwell 85c), but doesn’t make the base material brittle. I would think the barrel would wear long before the bushing.

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"I also cook."

Is it possible that what we see in the picture is simply schmegma and not the titanium nitride coating “wearing off” ?

I’ve seen the before also, but to be totally honest, I’d have to go to the safe to see if it’s on any of my PC guns because I just don’t recall.

Maybe on some, others I don’t think so.

Here is a closeup of my oldest Briley bushing equipped PC. The outside is worn as well as the inside. Not much TiN left huh?

I never paid that much attention till I started seeing pictures of ones that looked “worn”, (on the outside.)

I’m sure all is good but sometimes I just wonder about things I don’t know about.

I should have pictured the barrel also which I now have. I also need to say it’s still very accurate.

Jim

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Maybe its the glare I'm seeing, is that bushing cracked?

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This is the way....

From the photo, it looks like the bushing was ground inside during fitting. Actually, I believe the supplied barrel ring should be specified to the same diameter inside as the O.D. of the barrel, and then the barrel polished, and "final fit" to the ring (insert).....instead of the other way around.

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Ret. LE, FA Instr, S&W Armorer

Nope not cracked. Just polished and shiny.

Looks like I turned my original question into a more personal one than I thought.

I’ve just looked a five more pistols/bushings from oldest, (more used,) to newest condition PC pistols. I stopped cause even the older more used ones show NO sign of internal bushing wear. I stopped looking because the rest are like new if not new pistols.

Hmm

Jim

Just took a peek at mine... all seem to be in great shape no real indication of wearing... the DPA however has a slight line where I guess it consistently wore in 1 spot.

Only the shorty .40 has no TIN on the outside of the bushing... its a mystery...

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This is the way....

I am very sorry for troubling you all so much. But I have, (obviously,) more questions now and I hope all the answers will help anyone that has these wonderful PC examples that have Briley bushings.

The Briley bushing and barrel I posted pictures of were of a 419 total PC run in 1999. This pistol left in March 1999 to RSR and was returned in early August 1999. (Didn’t sell.) In late 1999 it became a salesman sample to S&W salesman Ken Powell. It was finally delivered to Cecile Firearms and bought by the person who sold it a while back. I have it now. At some point in it’s early life did the PC take a short cut in “grinding” the spherical bushing instead of
the barrel? There is no evidence of it being shot much. I don’t think anyone messed with it other than the PC.

Should I be concerned about the wear, (or lack of TiN,) of the bushing? As I’ve said it still is a very accurate pistol.

Thanks again all for the input.

Jim

It would seem that way, since grinding on the TiN layer would
probably remove it---and matches the other comment about
the barrel (softer surface than bushing) wearing, to cause slop.

I would think so. But “s&wchad” has kinda explained that the TiN goes into the surface some what. I believe the explanation of the properties. I thank him for adding input to my original question although at that point I didn’t know it would pertain to me.

Should I get a new bushing from Briley and hope I can fit it, or not worry about it since no one since the PC in 1999 worked on it? It’s pretty well scarfed up but original I assume.? It is the most tightest fitting barrel to bushing combo I checked out today. I think you all that have them know what I mean.

Jim

I say the old saw applies: “if it ain’t broke don’t fix it.”

You can absolutely get a new one... You will have to measure your barrel (OD) at the muzzle, in the middle, and at the rear then just go to Briley and match it up

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This is the way....

Yes, but measured in ten-thousands of an inch, in thickness.
If there's a noticeable coloration change from "polishing",
I'd guess the TiN went with it.

But, if the gun shoots great ("ain't broke"), then don't fix it...


Titanium nitride - Wikipedia

Sevens, Sorry to take so long to reply, we have had about 6" of rain around here and that makes for alot more stall cleaning, horse moving around etc.
Im one of those very lucky individuals that has never had to reload a round. Early days as a bachelor, spent my entire tax return check on ammo, later because of job and pistol team association ammo was provided. Anyway, I was shooting my oldest( maybe 20 years) 9mm ammo WW 147 truncated cone match.(box on left) Not sure if they still make it, now its just 147 gr FMJ(box on far right) The white box ammo shoots fine also, especially out to 25yds,(most factory ammo does) but is not as consistant at 50 yds. I think the older Super X ammo went through more inspections and closer watch on the specs. Also the white box 147 FMJ I have is from the time when WW had just moved to MS so machines and the operators may not have been settled in yet. So newer ammo may be more consistant groups at 50. The other 2 boxes are WW RA9T , Ranger 147 HP, this was our duty ammo and it shoots extremely well, as a self defense load and premium ammo it has much more quality control than white box or practice ammo. Luckily it shoots to the same point of aim as the white box 147, so for someone like me that carried P/C 5906/9mm shorty for a duty gun and shot the same gun in matches, no fooling with the sights. Ranger would be too expensive to shoot/practice with but it is fine shooting ammo. The other white box WW 147 JHP is the last ammo I got before retiring, it is very accurate, actually best in WW test barrel like 1.2" 50yds (if memory serves) other guys really like it, but I havent shot it enough through my SW guns to comment other than it shoots great out of my Shorty 9 at 25 yards, but again, most good factory ammo brands will do the same . I know this doesnt help much for reloaders but for guys carrying PC guns any of the popular brands of 9mm self defense ammo WW, Federal, Speer, all shoot like lasers to 25yrds, just not to the same POI.

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Sorry for digging up an old thread, but I recently acquired a Shorty 40 from the 1992 batch of pistols. Plenty of TiN on the surface common to the barrel, but none on the outside of the bushing. A Shorty 40 production letter from Lew Horton states "The barrel rides on a hand fit titanium coated spherical barrel bushing." I'm wondering if the "hand fit" process on these very early Performance Center guns (1992) was done by hand lapping the outside of the barrel bushing to fit into the slide which would remove the outside coating from the bushing?

If I’m reading you properly then I say “NO!” because there is no fitment needed or wanted between the Briley ring and the fixture that holds the ring.

There is the slide
Threaded in to the slide is the Briley fixture
Inside that fixture is the titanium ring
The barrel rides inside the ring

Briley still has these rings and they are all ONE size in outer diameter — the perfect size to fit that fixture. Same size, btw, to fit the Briley 1911 bushing.

With the Briley system, the only part of the ring that varies (by which ring you purchase or which ring that Briley supplies) is the inside diameter of the titanium coated spherical ring.

It would be silly and counterproductive to the design to ever try to fit the inside of a Briley spherical ring (since you can buy one in any size) and even more counterproductive to ever try to fit the outside diameter of a Briley spherical ring since the fixture is of a static dimension.

NO

Call Briley and voice your concerns. Ask them to fit a new insert to your OEM barrel/slide assembly

This avoids the issue of ordering the wrong insert

If the initial C/S rep says they do not do this kind of thing any more, then work your way up the food chain . . . I guaranty they will handle this for you

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"Acta non verba"

I did not even notice the dates when I replied

Perhaps 4T5GUY will pop in with "The Rest of the STORY"

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"Acta non verba"

That seems logical; why would Briley make a different OD for the Shorty 40 ring? And why would they make it larger not smaller? The OD of my Shorty 40 ring is approximately .019" larger than my Shorty 45 ring.




The attached pictures show my Shorty 40’s ring and bushing. The bushing does not look worn at all and the ring appears more like the OD finish was stripped off than worn off. I would expect to see miniscule traces of the TiN coating and surfaces that were more polished than dull. I know it doesn't make sense, but I would think the Shorty's aluminum frame would be beat to death if enough rounds were put through it to strip the ring OD clean; and why would the other surfaces of the ring still look good?






I test fit my Shorty 45 ring into the Shorty 40’s bushing recess, and it just fell in – obviously being .019” smaller.


The Shorty 40 ring sat on top of the Shorty 45 bushing.



It seems really strange that two Shorty 40’s mentioned in this thread have the TiN completely stripped from the outside of the ring. Maybe some other “First Edition PCS” Shorty 40 owners can chime in.

I don’t have much to add to my original post and or my initial question.

To date I have done nothing to the pistol. To be honest I don’t run it that much. It’s still a very accurate, (at “reasonable” distances.) I’ve got other examples so it doesn’t get run as much. Oh, by the way it’s a 9 Recon if that’s important.

I was initially horrified in seeing the TIN missing but at this point I’m not all that concerned. As I said, it is still the tightest fitting barrel to Briley bushing fit PC that I have. I have a few others, (some amazing comp/target examples,) to compare to and it is the tightest but functions flawlessly.

I’m glad we are still discussing this.

Jim

Those close-up pictures are fantastic!

Almost makes me wonder if Briley had not yet standardized their design at that point?

Maybe I’ll have to take all mine apart and see what I see.

IMO, to put enough rounds through a PC to appreciably cause significant wear, the softer barrel would become the logical choice for replacement; the bore sould see significantly more wear than the OD at the bushing fit, much less the Briley bushing. I'm also of the mindset that unless accuracy has fallen off significantly, it's best to leave it alone.

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Trey Gorbett, SWCA #3676