A 39 question fpr the Captain and other ISP folks

imarangemaster · Jan 1, 2021

I grew up in Chicago in the 50s and 60s. I was a gun nut from an early age. When other kids bought comic books, I bought Guns and ammo and "Small Arms of the World". My first recollection of the Model 39 was when I was a kid (I'm 68 now). My older cousin was a US Postal Inspector. He was my gun mentor as I grew up. He taught me how to shoot. He bought a S&W Model 39 steel frame that he kept in his glove compartment when he was off duty. He used that and a DCM M1 Carbine he kept for a trunk weapon to teach me.

My dad worked for the State of Illinois. He was the chief Engineer for Children and Family Services, and was responsible for physical plant of all those hospitals in the state. He travelled the state regularly, and if I was off school, I would often go with him. In this job, he would sometimes have contact with the ISP. I of course immediately locked on to the fact that they were wearing 39s like my cousin Bill had and I shot.

Here's the question for the ISP folks: I seem to remember the Troopers not wearing a Sam Brown, but rather a heavy basketweave trouser belt with a strong side holster with the magazine pouch for one on the holster. The only other thing on the belt was a cuff case and a baton ring. I honestly don't remember if they were Troopers or ISP brass that we were meeting those couple times. Was this the set up or am I mis-remembering.

Thanks in advance.

imarangemaster · Jan 1, 2021

Found this on a Google search. Much like I remember

I found info saying this was in the late 1970s, but I thought it was in the early 70s....

ispcapt · Jan 1, 2021

Initially the 39 was carried in a flapped crossdraw with an extra mag pouch sewed on the back of the flap. Belt was a plain black shiny leather and then clarino. No Sam Browne. Belt went thru the pants belt loops.
Then went to a strong side thumb break on the same style belt. Off side was a flapped handcuffed case and baton ring. No extra mag case was issued. You could buy your own mag pouch to match the belt/holster. Then a single mag pouch was issued.
Later went with a plain clarino gun belt, velcro to an inner belt, holster strong side. Fill out the rest of the belt with double mag pouch, handcuff case, expandable baton, radio, and whatever else you had room for that you wanted to buy like 2nd cuffs, rubber gloves case, baton/flashlight ring.
We never issued basketweave. Always plain smooth.

ispcapt · Jan 1, 2021

imarangemaster said:
Found this on a Google search. Much like I remember

I found info saying this was in the late 1970s, but I thought it was in the early 70s....

Nope, not our issued holster. The crossdraw had a magazine pouch sewed on the back of the flap so the mag was horizontal to the ground.
The strong side thumb break was a like this Bianchi 99 Border Patrol style. I can't recall if they were Bianchi or Safariland.

imarangemaster · Jan 1, 2021

Thanks Captain! With 50-60 years passing under the bridge, and I am sure it got jumbled in my mind! Could a high ranking brass maybe had one like that? Maybe private purchase?

ispcapt · Jan 1, 2021

imarangemaster said:
Thanks Captain! With 50-60 years passing under the bridge, and I am sure it got jumbled in my mind! Could a high ranking brass maybe had one like that? Maybe private purchase?

Could be personal purchase. Not for wearing with the uniform tho. For plain clothes tho it was whatever you want to buy.

imarangemaster · Jan 1, 2021

With this predisposition towards Smith 9mms, it opened the door for me into the world of Wonder Nines:

In 1975 I was at the Central Coast Counties Police Academy in Gilroy CA. The Salinas PD guys ALL had Model 59s. I was obsessed by it. Finally in 1978 I bought one as an off duty gun (our department carried Model 66 S&Ws.

In 1979, I moved to a small PD in Washington state and carried it as a duty weapon. The Chief was an old wheel gun IPSC shooter and pooh-poohed the "Wonder Nine!" That was until Range day when I put 43 rounds into the 10 ring of a B27 before he finished his third 6 rounds loaded with a speed loader! He bought a Nickel plated 59 the next day.

A couple years later (1981), I transferred to Bellevue PD in the Seattle area. We were issued 59s, being the first department in Washington state to carry autos. It was there that I was a range master and a couple years later that I was introduced to the pre-production sample of the 469 by the S&W LE rep. I was smitten! I bought one the first year they were released...

We shortly later switched from 59s to 439s to make the female officers (10% of the dept.) happy....but that's another story!

imarangemaster · Jan 1, 2021

A sad postscript to the story, my cousin passed away last year, and all of his guns (including the steel framed 39) were passed down to his 50ish year old adult son, who still lives at home off his mom and dad, and hasn't worked his entire life. I am sure they have all been pawned at this point...sad

ispcapt · Jan 1, 2021

The first 59 (actually 2) that I ever saw was a few months after they came out. FBI SAs weren't authorized to carry autos. Hoover considered them gangsters' guns. An SA from NYC was here in the midwest working a case and he was carrying a pair of 59s in a shoulder holster. Got talking to him one night about why the 59s. A bunch of them in the late 60s had gone to arrest a hitman who was with one of the 60s radical groups and he opened up with a auto, can't recall what. It was a running gun battle. The SA said as soon as the 59s came out he bought 2.
We had a local SA in the mid 70s who also carried an unauthorized 59. He was running errands with his kids one Saturday morning and stopped by a drug store. When he walked up to the door a guy was coming out and Jerry held the door open for the guy to leave and then Jerry's girls went in with Jerry following. No one else was in the story. At the back near the drug counter Jerry found 3 employees beat bloody with a hammer. The guy he opened the door for and let leave was the subject.
Those were the first 59s I saw being carried. Everyone else around except the ISP was still toting revolvers. Occasionally would find a detective carrying a 1911.

imarangemaster said:
A sad postscript to the story, my cousin passed away last year, and all of his guns (including the steel framed 39) were passed down to his 50ish year old adult son, who still lives at home off his mom and dad, and hasn't worked his entire life. I am sure they have all been pawned at this point...sad

Sorry for the loss of your cousin.
Hate to hear those kind of stories. Sadly, probably a lot of situations like that.

SG-688 · Jan 1, 2021

From about 1976: Special order Safariland model 254 holsters with an extra wide 2 1/4 inch belt loop to better stabilize the holster on the narrow belt yet also able to be worn on a 2 1/4 in. Sam Brown belt with the dress blouse - as with the prior flap holster. Clarino.

(I'd want to forget the blouse too.)

I remember especially because I was wearing the 254 - a jacket-loop border-patrol style holster - with a local agency.

I saw some troopers "beta testing" other brands in the same pattern before the Safariland.

Later, I guess in the 459 era, a soft, formless Hume thumb snap in Clarino.

SG-688 · Jan 1, 2021

Many small Illinois agencies, like mine, copied ISP with 39 and 59's in the early 1970's. The state making the switch in '66/67 made it politically possible for the rest of us. I briefly had an issue 59 that was a terrific, accurate pistol. Carried a 1911 too.

And then, on the state level, the Illinois Bureau of Investigation (IBI) was about half auto packers, with lots of S&W 9's and Walther PPK's, until a non-auto agent picked up a .45 that was not his and let off a round, nicking a secretary. Then, even the DA autos were banned.

Sangamon County (There was a cowboy agency.) had a significant number in uniform with 1911's - again until an accident ended that.

Now, there are probably more Illinois cops with 1911's than there are with S&W 39's and 59's. Who would have thought that was possible?

VASCAR2 · Jan 1, 2021

Here are some pictures of ISP Duty holster and cuff case. The holster was issued with the 5904 and is a Don Hume marked H738 SH L NO 5M. The handcuff case is a Jay Pee. I was issue this cuff case in the Academy in 1988.

The S&W 5904 was not my issue pistol but I bought it a few years ago and the only difference is this 5904 doesn't have Trijicon tritium night sights.

The next picture is of my S&W 39-2 in a Safariland basketweave swivel holster and is only marked 9 S&W 9 MM. I bought the model 39-2, holster and double mag pouch from a co-worker at a Sheriff's department. The holster was Brown but I died it Black when I went to work for a small PD.

Notice how this holster is old enough that the rear sight opening is to small for the adjustable rear sight used on some 439 and 5904 pistols.

triaxle · Jan 1, 2021

That was a great post .

VASCAR2 · Jan 1, 2021

Thanks but at the moment I can't remember where I put the black basketweave double mag pouch. Old age strikes again.

ispcapt · Jan 1, 2021

VASCAR2 said:
Here are some pictures of ISP Duty holster and cuff case. The holster was issued with the 5904 and is a Don Hume marked H738 SH L NO 5M. The handcuff case is a Jay Pee. I was issue this cuff case in the Academy in 1988.

That's our holster and cuff case for sure. I didn't think ours was Bianchi because the only Bianchi picture I could find was like the 2nd holster you pictured with the stitching along the front. Ours was the smooth wrap around front.

The S&W 5904 was not my issue pistol but I bought it a few years ago and the only difference is this 5904 doesn't have Trijicon tritium night sights.

This is my issued 5904. I didn't carry it much. I was in investigations when we had the 3rd gen and carried a 6904. Towards the end of our S&W time I had a drug task force assigned to me and often carried a 645, 457, and/or Glock 23. One day at the range one of the guys said if I also wanted a 5904 he'd issue me one of those too. No reason to turn down that offer. The only time I carried it was when there was a detail where we were in uniform. When we went to the Glock I bought both the 5904 and 6904. The 5904 is the one I usually use for my LEOSA shoot.
When we went to Glock I usually carried a Glock 23 in a Safariland Level 3 model 070. I liked it for working crowds like the state fair, dignitary details, etc. I still have it but unfortunately it hasn't aged well. But then neither have I. Both of us are cracked in a few places and the finish wearing off.

imarangemaster · Jan 2, 2021

Captain, you mentioning Level III holster reminded me of a funny that happened to me. As one of the Rangemasters, besides training and qualifying officers, I also did Beta testing and evaluations of firearms and equipment. In the 80s, Rogers holsters came out with the first Level III holster (Safariland later bought out Rogers to acquire the design).

I was given a test sample to use on patrol with my 59. It was radically different from the jacket slot border patrol we used for them. It was a jacket slot design, that had the loop portion screwed to the body with three screws in a stud (important for later!). Being new equipment, I knew I would have to acquire new muscle memory. I did probably 200 presentations of the weapon before I used it on the street.

One afternoon I was on solo patrol east of the business district. Dispatch put out a BOLO for a vehicle that was just stolen. It was the vehicle immediately in front of me at the stop light we were stopped at. As the light changed, I notified dispatch I was following the vehicle, and to send back up for a felony stop. (Not being a cowboy and wanting to stop a car jacker by myself!). As we cruised down NE 8th St, he had apparently seen me talking on the radio. He jammed on the brakes and jumped from the car and took leg bail (which was still in drive and drove into a curb).

As he did this, I threw the patrol vehicle into park, as I notified dispatch of location. I jumped from the vehicle, adrenaline pumping to pursue. I tugged repeatedly at my 59, trying to draw it. Apparently I did not create sufficient muscle memory, as my brain was saying "border patrol holster!' The adrenaline, however, overcame and I tore the holster off the belt loop shank! I now had a pistol encased in leather in my hand....

After being the butt of many jokes in the training division, we stayed with border patrol holsters...

Borderboss · Jan 2, 2021

SG-688 said:
Now, there are probably more Illinois cops with 1911's than there are with S&W 39's and 59's. Who would have thought that was possible?

I was visiting the Shorewood, IL PD last year and saw a bunch of guys carrying 1911s. When I asked about it, I was told that almost everyone on the force carries 1911s. That kinda made me happy.

imarangemaster · Jan 2, 2021

In my career, I occasionally carried a 1911 platform. I like it, but it is harder to train new recruits on than a GLOCK or S&W. When we had the SA/DA Smiths, we never had an AD. Our detectives, though, carried HK P7 M8 squeeze cockers. Like NJ State Police, we had several close calls with those, and IIRC they were pulled from service after a couple years.

VASCAR2 · Jan 2, 2021

Back in the late 80's early 90's a lot of Elgin PD Officers were carrying 1911's. One trick I observed EPD use was having a combative arrestee walk backwards. If a handcuffed arrestee resist you can drag him backwards on his heels very easily with an officer on each arm. It makes it very difficult for the arrestee to kick or fight being pulled backwards.

If memory serves me correctly the last Academy Class or two got fixed sight 5904's just prior to transitioning to Glocks in about 2000.

Doug M. · Jan 2, 2021

A couple of points about 1911s and having arrestees walk backwards in Illinois.

1) The cops that attended PTI (Police Training Institute, University of Illinois) were more likely to have 1911s. When I went (1989), every member of the range staff were Gunsite alumni as far as I can recall, and most if not all were range masters at Gunsite. They really pushed the 1911, for lots of reasons. I never carried a 1911 as a duty weapon in Illinois, but did here for a couple years after they were authorized. We had a pretty demanding standard to be allowed to do so, and few made it.

2) Walking arrestees backward was taught at PTI - the tactics taught were pretty cutting edge at the time and PTI was far ahead of the curve. As far as I know, they no longer are - politics took over and ended that.

A 39 question fpr the Captain and other ISP folks

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