A 39 question fpr the Captain and other ISP folks

There were some cutting edge training outfits in the 80s. At the time, Washington state's WSCJTC as a whole was not particularly cutting edge in their training. They did not even have a standard of training for Reserve Officers. I was a training officer, and worked with them to create a standard 400 hour curriculum for reserves.

Our department, however, was very advanced. We regularly hosted advance training at our training center. Caliber Press had an excellent multi day Officer Survival school that we would send officers to attend. Something or other "Edge" was the name of it. The training was absolute cutting edge for the time.

I went to one of Caliber Press' schools, hosted by Seattle PD. On one day, the wives of officers were asked to attend. It really helped my wife understand me and my career much better.

California POST really evolved since I went to the basic academy there in 1975. (I left CA to go to WA in 1979) It was 12 weeks at the time. In 1998/1999 when I taught there as I was going out on retirement, it was just over 6 months long. I must confess, though, that much of that increased time was spent teaching the recruits how to avoid being sued!
 
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Groups within the UI have tried to close down the PTI the past several years, but have not had any luck so far. I am sure they will keep trying.

A couple of points about 1911s and having arrestees walk backwards in Illinois.

1) The cops that attended PTI (Police Training Institute, University of Illinois) were more likely to have 1911s. When I went (1989), every member of the range staff were Gunsite alumni as far as I can recall, and most if not all were range masters at Gunsite. They really pushed the 1911, for lots of reasons. I never carried a 1911 as a duty weapon in Illinois, but did here for a couple years after they were authorized. We had a pretty demanding standard to be allowed to do so, and few made it.

2) Walking arrestees backward was taught at PTI - the tactics taught were pretty cutting edge at the time and PTI was far ahead of the curve. As far as I know, they no longer are - politics took over and ended that.
 
Our academies were part of local Junior college campuses (Evergreen Community College for one branch and Gavilan Community College for the other.. The academics regularly tried to push out us "Barbarians...."

When I attended in 1975, it was a live in, 24/7 academy with barracks and inspections by the DIs twice daily. Under pressure from the academics they shipped recruits off to local motels a number of years after I attended.

One of the Caliber press classes I went to was the "Street Survival Seminar." It was three or 4 days long. Really intensive and good stuff. Had a night component. Another great course I also went to was a two week firearms instructor course in Washington. We did things like live fire from inside patrol vehicles with handguns and shotguns, from driver seat across passenger seat and out the window. Even did some off the roof at downward angle shooting.
 
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I attended PTI in 1974. I remember that the firearms training was done with S&W model 64's with skinny barrels. The Training for Police Officers was not mandatory at that time. I had served as a full time officer for several months before attending the academy. The Instructors were all wonderful people. I had just retuned from RVN in 1971 so I had a attitude I guess plus I had worked about 2 years as a Correctional Officer at Menard Penitentiary. S0 I was kind of a smart *** but they Tolerated me at both the Academy and the prison. The weapons at Menard were S&W M&P's and Colt Official Police revolvers.
 
I attended PTI in Champaign in 1977 where the course lasted six weeks. PTI had the thin barrel M&P model 64 or 65. PTI also had nickel 59's for Agencies that issued semi auto's. Most Officers brought their department or personally owned weapon. I shot my Department model 66 and a classmate from the same county shot a nickel 1911 Government model.

All revolver training was with 38 Special wadcutter ammo provided by PTI. PTI also provided 9 MM FMJ but the range staff was not fond of the S&W 59's. My classmate was required to supply his own ammo and I think he shot 230 FMJ and used Remington 185 grain JHP for duty.

My Agency used Star reloads (148 grain HBWC) for qualification and whatever (last guy turned in or you could scrounge) for duty. My Department didn't provide fresh duty ammo so I bought my own.

I don't remember anybody using speed loaders for the revolvers. Most used dump pouches but a couple had cartridge loops.
 
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As long as the subject has come up, I gained employment with the Addison, Ill. Police Department in 1978 and attended PTI for the basic LEO class there. It was somewhat interesting going there because of the interaction with "normal" college students and at times university instructors. Occasionally there was some friction between the trainees and regular college students, but nothing serious. Overall I enjoyed the experience, but the drive to PTI was a pain in the butt. I forget the class coordinators name but he was an interesting sort. I think he was originally from Oakland, CA and he had a handlebar moustache. Quite a guy. They say you only recall the really good instructors in your life and the really bad ones, he was a good one. They allowed us to use of department issued sidearm, if we had one, for range training. I had been sworn in a week or so prior so I had one, a Model 19 S&W. It was okay and I shot it well, but it was a used gun that lived a hard life prior to me getting it, so I never bonded with that gun.

Just prior to being sworn in I was sent to a large uniform store in the City of Chicago for my initial uniform and equipment purchase. I recall walking into the place and being shocked at the number of coppers in there, mainly from the City. There were a few others from the area, but mostly Chicago. Oddly enough many were just there to shoot the bull and hangout, but I specifically remember one Chicago cop who had the nastiest looking sidearm and ammunition I had ever seen up to that point on his duty belt. The tops of the cartridges in his loop carrier were turning green and I thought WTH?? He saw me looking at his equipment and he looked at me and said, "Something wrong? You a cop?" I was totally embarrassed and said "Nope nothing wrong, but why are your cartridges green on the top and yes I was just hired by a department." He then opened up his leather jacket and said, "this is my REAL gun if I need it, it's a .44 Maggie and it does what I need it to." He had it in a shoulder holster with extra rounds on the carrier straps. One of his pals looked at me and said, "Listen rook, we all carry extra shooters and if you last long enough you will too." Thankfully the clerk behind the counter said "Can I help you" and got me out of that mess before I did something else stupid.

Anyway the seed was planted and as soon as I could I carried a supplemental weapon whenever possible. At first I carried small frame S&W revolvers, but when I left Illinois and started working for the Wisconsin State Patrol I switched to a PPK which served me well for many years. Fortunately for me when I started on the Patrol I was issued a brand new Model 66 4" revolver and I bonded with that gun. We could only carry 158 grain semi-jacketed soft points as hollow points were frowned on by our admin at the time. All our leather gear was made by Dehners in Omaha and was polished plain black, but not Clarino.

I started attending some of the Street Survival seminars in the early 80's ( 1st one was in Morton Grove, IL )and they were quite interesting and I learned a lot. What I really learned was my agency fell woefully short in any type of tactical, or combat training. It was more about being polite and looking like a professional trooper should. Believe it or not, part of our training was how to iron 5 creases into your duty shirt!! No sewn in creases for us by golly! Around 1984 things started to change dramatically for us though, as we had Academy staff finally in place that understood what we needed for better training and we got it. Many of the senior troopers weren't at all ready for intense tactical training and it showed. I can honestly say I was embarrassed for some of them and how they reacted when placed in high stress situations. A few actually resigned/retired and went into other occupations, but it was for the best.

My first duty assignment out of the Academy was to the southeast region and I occasionally ran into some troops from Illinois State Police. Most were from District 15 and I would go to one of the Tollway Maintenance buildings to shoot the bull with them, or they would come up and meet me at the Kenosha Scale. One guy in particular was a real card because he used to love to tease me about how much more money they made than me. He would make sure to show me their projected pay increase sheets and then needle me about how much I was making versus him. The last sheet I ever saw reflected that an ISP recruit was making more than I was with 10 years on the job. I never bothered to look at the ISP pay sheets again. It was too deflating to my ego! Several years after I retired I ended up as a police motorcycle instructor working for NUCPS and I spent several weeks at the Pawnee, IL ISP driving track and that's where I first heard the term "Trooper Lane". It's an unwritten rule in Illinois that lane #1 of any multi-lane roadway is reserved for troopers so you better stay out of it except to pass a slower vehicle. I got a lot of mileage out of that one over many years LOL! I will add that the troopers we trained in that ISP only motorcycle operation class were some of the most dedicated and hardest working people I have ever run across. They not only put up with a tornado that came thru the area, but the cold and snow conditions at times were incredible. On a few days they actually had to salt the track and drive their cruisers on it to break up the snow and ice for us to use the motorcycles. Getting warm was on everyone's mind as soon as you stepped outside. I was teased a lot being from Wisconsin and that I should be used to cold weather. Great bunch of people and I and my partner were very proud of them. In 23 years of training LEO's how to operate a police motorcycle, those back to back classes in Pawnee had the worst weather conditions I ever experienced!

Rick H.
 
I followed a couple of links that landed me at the Troopers' Lodge page with a picture of a sergeant wearing his S&W 439 in a Safariland SSIII.

The old "lasts forever" Porvair turned out to be so bad that it's no longer made. However, I'd guess for most issued purchases, a 5 year life span is close enough to forever for government work.

edit to add that Safarilaminate was Porvair.
Whatever Rogers was using was bad too. My Rogers SSIII virtually melted.
I didn't use the SSIII; I bought it to have an example of the breed.

I asked the youngest of our group - and HE just retired: he confirmed seeing troopers in the Glock era with SSIII holsters.
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Were SSIII's issue? Allowed personal purchase - like Pachmayr grips? Or?

I was reminded of a picture of a friend in 2016 with a Safariland 200 (I think it is) straight-drop level 2 holster. No light on her Glock.
Seems like now everybody has the Safariland plastic bucket with a light.
 
Were SSIII's issue? Allowed personal purchase - like Pachmayr grips? Or?
I was reminded of a picture of a friend in 2016 with a Safariland 200 (I think it is) straight-drop level 2 holster. No light on her Glock.
Seems like now everybody has the Safariland plastic bucket with a light.

There was a test period in 1986, 87, 88, thereabouts when we were still wearing the garrison belt (shown in Buddy's picture) with holster, etc and various gun belts were tested in the field. I don't recall which holsters were tested. The SSIII could have been tested but I don't recall.
After we went to the gun belt the SSIII was not issued. It was the holster like VASCAR2 shows. SSIII weren't actually authorized. Altho some of us bought our own and wore it I never heard of anyone being told not to. I was in plain clothes 1988 to 1998. I bought my SSIII soon after I went back in uniform to wear for crowd control details and kept wearing it. At that point in my career if anyone objected they never said anything.
The issued holster was like VASCAR2 posted. It had a rear cant.
They started carrying lights after I retired so don't know what the current is.
 
With the advantage of having the full size photo -- Buddy is wearing a 2 1/4 inch Sam Brown belt with the SSIII.

That Hume holster is/was the "Tiger." Never understood that name.
Listed as H738 in my 2010 catalog.

My "pre-Tiger" - before the tension screw was added - was a good holster.
 
With the advantage of having the full size photo -- Buddy is wearing a 2 1/4 inch Sam Brown belt with the SSIII.
You are correct. I see that now that I've zoomed it. He was probably one of those selected to test it. He's wearing a Dept of Law Enforcement patch and D-4 squad behind him. It sort of looks like the fence around the fairgrounds near the old radio lab. Wonder if he was working the State Fair detail when this picture was taken. If I remember the next time I see him I'll ask if he remembers the picture.
 
The old "lasts forever" Porvair turned out to be so bad that it's no longer made. However, I'd guess for most issued purchases, a 5 year life span is close enough to forever for government work.

The "Safarilaminate" stuff doesn't age well, either. Dug thru
some old stuff and all three Safariland holsters are crumbly/
shedding pieces...probably 30 years old, + or -.
 
I too grew up in Chicagoland in the 60's and 70's. Us gun nut kids were kind of outnumbered. There were only two other kids in my Catholic school who hunted. We would take slingshots and pellet guns out to the woods by the tollways and railroad tracks on our days off.
I remember being surprised when the ISP went to semi-autos.
 
The first time I put my Glock in a Safariland SS3 holster I thought that I would never get the Glock out. It took a lot of draws to get the Safarailand SS3 holster to break in. Even after it was broke in it was not a holster you could get a fast draw out of. But it was a very secure holster. IMHO.
 
I had that model for several guns, including a 1911, 4" N frame, Glock 17, and H&K USP. I think I still have all of those. I found it easy to draw fast with a little training - but re-holstering fast to go hands on was hard to do because it was not a fast holster to secure. I would eventually go to other holsters as a result.

The Safariland ALS system is pretty good, and generally works well with the modern trend to weapon lights and Red Dot sights. I have one coming for that purpose just for training; I have no other needs of duty gear except to use it when I assist with the reserve academy. I have relatively small hands and developing arthritis, so the SLS is not a good choice for me. My last duty holster was the Tactical Design Labs duty holster, which worked pretty well in the non-light/non-RDS era. I had one for issued G21, and another for training classes for my G17s.

On the rare occasions I might open carry (woods stuff), I would use the TDL or that SSIII.
 
The first time I put my Glock in a Safariland SS3 holster I thought that I would never get the Glock out. It took a lot of draws to get the Safarailand SS3 holster to break in. Even after it was broke in it was not a holster you could get a fast draw out of. But it was a very secure holster. IMHO.

Definitely not a "buy today, wear on duty tomorrow" holster
--at least not the first time. :D

We did have an instructor in academy with one, and he was
fast out of it. I'm sure there was a lot of practice-draws
behind that.

I settled for a Level II, and practiced enough to be faster than
most guys with generic border patrols, during qual fire. I don't
think an agency could reasonably mandate IIIs, unless it had a
small number of very weapons-proficient officers.
 
Rick H-
By General Order, everyone at that time was required to carry the prescribed weapon which was a 4 inch 38 Special revolver. No matter what. We didn't place to much faith in the 38 so we all carried something else as a "secondary weapon". Most carried a 1911 or a BHP. But no matter what you had to carry that 38 revolver hence the green colored bullet. No one cared about that gun, the only gun we really cared about was our BUG.
 
As a kid in Chicago in the 50s and 60s, I remember lots of Chicago cops carrying a second gun in a cross draw holster, usually a semi-auto, but occasionally a 2" revolver. A neighbor down the block was a Chicago cop (I dated his daughter in 8th grade and freshman year), carried a Colt Commander in a cross draw on his duty belt.
 

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