A 39 question fpr the Captain and other ISP folks

[imarangemaster]

I was an MP at Fort Ord when I attended in California Basic POST in 1975. I had completed the Army's 12 Week MP school in 1974. It was OK, but not POST. The three of us that went TDY to the POST academy were issued 1911A1s for the Academy. I actually shot about 3rd in the class with the 1911 (I always shot the 1911 really well).

Back then, you did not have to go to the academy when you got hired, but many had a year on the street already doing OJT with an FTO. A few years later, it was required before you went on the street.

A Gilroy PD recruit had a BHP and Ithaca Deerslayer for issue guns, Union City PD had 1911s like us, and of course the Salinas PD guys with their beloved Model 59s. They really did think they were bad *** compared to the revolver shooters (75%). I managed to shoot both the BHP and 59, and preferred the S&W "Wonder Nine!"

Note: An interesting anecdote about many recruits having been on the street before that academy and officers carrying BUGs. One Salinas officer had over a year on the street. When he got hired, his wife bought him a 2" Chief Special and an ankle holster. His first night he was to work, he was picked up by his FTO. They stopped at a 7-11 (affectionately known as Stop And Robs), and the rookie got out and went into the store to get a pack of gum.

Unknown to him, there was an armed robbery in progress inside. The robber got behind the door with his sawed off shotgun. When the recruit went in the door, the very experienced street wise ex-con robber stepped behind him, whacked him on the head with the sawed off, and grabbed his Model 59 from the holster when he was falling down. He rolled over and had the presence of mind to draw the BUG and shoot the surprised robber between the eyes as he was readying to kill him with the sawed off. That was his first night on duty! I heard about it at the academy barracks one night after that same recruit was having his repeat horrific nightmare, and the other Salinas guys were trying to wake him and calm him down. I heard he retire out after about 15 years later with a broken back suffered on duty...

 

[imarangemaster]

Another BUG anecdote about Chicago PD. There was a restaurant on the south side called "Aylward's Round-up" which had a Western motif. In 1969, I worked there (I was dating the owner's daughter for a long time). It was a popular lunch spot for cops (free lunch). The lunch counter was always full of cops, both uniformed and plain clothes - usually with suit coats or uniform jackets off. For a gun buff like me, it was a smorgasbord. Besides their issue 4" or 2" .38, many had BUGs: 1911s, S&W 39s, Walther P-38s, BHPs, 6" Colt Pythons, and I even saw a Luger in a back waistband. They were in cross draws, or shoulder rigs under suit coats or blue leather uniform jackets.

By that time I had already fired an S&W 39, a Walther PPK, and a number of other handguns, as my older cousin was a US Postal Inspector. He had been my firearms and later law enforcement mentor. He carried a steel frame Model 39 or Walther PPK when off duty, and I had fired them both by the time I was a teen.

 

[Chadv]

I am from south central Illinois about 45 miles east of St. Louis. A year ago in November I made my first trip to the show in Tulsa. What was the first thing I see laying on a table??? An Illinois state police marked model 39. What are the odds? Well it came back home to Illinois. I have a friend who retired from District 12 a couple of years ago who tried to research it and see where it was issued but had no luck. All these guns, holsters, belts and stuff have such a history. I wish I could hear some of their stories.


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[minconrevo]

About 35 years ago a gunshop in the Tulsa metro area got in a bunch of retired ISP 39's. This would explain why the probability of seeing them at the Tulsa show is high for more than just being a really big show. I remember seeing and handling some of the 39's at that dealer's shop. Lots of special ISP mod's done to them, including a beavertail extension and a variety of extractor types. These were well worn and were mostly refinished by the shop before sale.

 

[rincar]

I live about 60 miles South East of St. Louis in District 13. There used to be one or two ISP Troopers in every small town. I knew most of them on a first name basis. I worked in a couple of the small town as a Police Officer. Those were the good times. We backed each other up on our service call and traffic stops. All the ISP troopers were great to work with.

 

[ispcapt]

I have a friend who retired from District 12 a couple of years ago who tried to research it and see where it was issued but had no luck.

When I was in charge of our R&D I spent quite a few hours looking thru old files and records hoping to come up with anything were I could trace who was issued the original 39-no dash with the inventory stamp. No luck. All the records were gone. That was before the internet or knowing anyone would ever care.

 

[SG-688]

I've heard that some Walther PPK or PPK/s pistols were also purchased sometime in the last couple of decades. I've heard the story but don't know the exact time frame.

 

[VASCAR2]

ISP did purchase Walther PPK and PPKs pistols that were selectively issued to command or investigators. The ISP sold or traded numerous Firearms to Shore Guns in the Chicago area. Shore sold the used ISP shotguns and the Walther pistols in late 2005 to early 2006. A FFL bought several Remington Sportsman 12 Shotguns modified by SAGE for ISP (TRT/Tactical teams). There were a few S&W 3000 shotguns and a few other firearms which ISP released.

I don't remember the total number of Firearms Shore received from the ISP but it was probably 100+. I drove up to Shore and picked up my FFL Friend's order. He felt the price of the Walther pistols was to high and he didn't buy any. He did buy a few old Remington 870 Wing Master with ISP engraved into the stock plus the Sage 12 gauge shotguns.

I've tried for years to get him to sell me one of his old ISP Wing Masters but he won't budge. I bought a Sportsman 12 semi auto with a Choate fixed pistol grip stock and I really like it. My Sportsman 12 had the barrel shortened but did not have any ISP markings. Most of the Remington semi auto Sage 12 gauge shotguns had collapsable stocks which required reworking the buffer system since there was no fixed stock.

 

[ispcapt]

My issued shotgun when I graduated from the academy was an 870 with 20" barrel and rifle sights. I put a Choate folder on it. Loved it. In every squad I mounted a simple clip on the door post and the 870 rode upright between the drivers seat and door post. When the Sage autos came in I was on TRT (SWAT) and got one but kept my 870. I never really cared for the Sage. It was heavier than my 870 and unless I was shooting slugs or 0 Buck it wouldn't cycle tear gas ferrets. Had to run them by hand. I finally gave it back. When I retired I turned in the 870 and now wish I'd tried to buy it. It was beat up looking, blueing worn shiny in places but it was a great shooting gun with zero problems. The last 3 digits of the serial number were 666, Mark of the Beast.
I had one of the issued PPK for a while. Issued ammo was W-W Silvertip. It worked OK with the Silvertip but it didn't like the Hornady rd. I never carried it and turned it back in too.

 

[hammy5150]

My 5926 used to belong to a CADOJ Special Agent who carried it in this old Safariland holster marked for Model 39s and 59s. It was crumbling and falling apart when I got it but I keep it around as a curiosity.

 

[rincar]

Are the Walther PPK,s marked with a ISP or just normal commercial marking.

 

[imarangemaster]

My 5926 used to belong to a CADOJ Special Agent who carried it in this old Safariland holster marked for Model 39s and 59s. It was crumbling and falling apart when I got it but I keep it around as a curiosity.

That is an old safriland "Clipspringer" holster.. It was an answer to Tex Shoemaker's early paddle holster. I had one for my Model 59 in the late 1980s. I had a Tex Shoemaker for my 2" S&W when I was an Investigator in the Army in the early to mid-70s.

 

[SG-688]

A friend of mine has often told the story about his first ISP issued shotgun in about 1969 being a Winchester model 97 - yep, the one with the exposed hammer - that had pipe wrench marks on the receiver. It was an expansion year for the ISP and equipment was short. I think he felt lucky to have a car with tread on the tires, roll up windows and a heater.....

He said the end of the 97 was when he was holding a suspect at gunpoint and the 97 let go without him touching the trigger. (missed)

Circa 1970, a couple of 97's were posted on the car inventory list in the local trooper office at the jail along with model 12's and Ithaca 37's.

 

[rincar]

In the early 1970,s while I was a guard at Illinois Menard Penitentery.There were Winchester Model 97 Shotguns in the Armory And the Towers. Their were also Winchester Model 94,s and Thompson submachine guns. Also there were S&W M&P,s and Colt Official Police Revolvers in the Armory

 

[VASCAR2]

Are the Walther PPK,s marked with a ISP or just normal commercial marking.

The Walther pistols I saw had no Illinois State Police markings to my recollection. Some of the S&W pistols had inventory numbers on the slide or dust cover of the frame. I think the original model 39's were stamped Illinois State Police on the right side of the slide under the ejection port.

I think the Walther PPK/PPKs were purchased late enough that if they had any ISP markings it might have been an inventory number. By the time ISP transitioned to Glock they had quit using any inventory number markings or Department name.

I heard Glock offered Agencies the option of adding logo or badge/star markings for no additional cost but ISP declined.