Prototype serial numbers??

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MartinSW41

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Did S & W use a certain prefix to denote their prototype guns? I bought a gun claimed to be a prototype. Came out of the Performance Center. The serial number starts with PCZ. Thanks.
 
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From the 1940s through the 1980s, S&W used an "X" prefix for experimental and prototype guns. A "T" prefix was used for prototypes based on existing models created by the tool room. I don't know what the practice was after the 1980s.
 
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I could be mistaken but didn’t they also use XPX for really early prototypes?

Or is that something that was formed in my brain without my knowledge?!
 
4T5GUY said:
The Performance Center used the PCZ prefix for preproduction and prototype examples.

Which PC do you have with a PCZ prefix?

Jim
Click to expand...

Jim, per the auction house.

"The consensus in online discussion and research is that the PCZ prefix is used across multiple Performance Center guns as a placeholder for proof of concept/prototype guns. In this case, it is a unique example of an already rare PC model 845 which Supica notes as being limited to 435 produced. The standard production run used the SN prefix “MPC” so this is, by all accounts, a pre-production version of the gun. Per Supica, this gun was in testing and production for around 10 years before it went to a production run which was sold exclusively through Lew Horton.

We had trouble identifying this gun awhile back because the features are specific to the model 845 but it is not marked (another indicator of a prototype/proof of concept) with the model number. The 4th Edition of Supica’s Catalog of S&Ws shows a photo of the model whereas the 3rd edition does not and we were able to identify this gun through the information in the 4th edition."
 
PCZ doesn’t refer to a prototype. Of the semis I’ve seen with PCZ, they were all existing models. No new models. PCZ was used on multiple models but these models may have had different features then the standard or PC versions.

As for the 5906, there may have been a prototype for the 1st gen and/or first PC model. But after all those Target Champions were sent to Wishco, I’m sure parts were left over and some pistols were made at the end of the ordering. These left overs may not have gotten the WIS prefix. Instead, PCZ was used. The PCZ pistols were also used as salesman samples.

Joe
 
joedegs said:
PCZ doesn’t refer to a prototype. Of the semis I’ve seen with PCZ, they were all existing models. No new models.
Click to expand...

Not arguing but there was at least one.

The PCZ prefix CQB in the Jan/Feb 2001 Handgunner was highlighted. The article, evaluation and tour of the PC Shop was before it went to print and the actual 4563 CQB’s went into production.

John/18DAI discussed it here and also personally with me. Glad it’s got a great new home and it’s still in the “family.”

Jim
 

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Now I love the SCSW and like many of us here, I take pride in that many of us right here on this forum have contributed to this amazing book and the 5th Edition is shipping like -NOW- and I cannot wait to get it and dive in.

I have also found it a pleasure to converse with Mr. Supica if even only just a little bit over the years.

MartinSW41 said:
In this case, it is a unique example of an already rare PC model 845 which Supica notes as being limited to 435 produced. The standard production run used the SN prefix “MPC” so this is, by all accounts, a pre-production version of the gun. Per Supica, this gun was in testing and production for around 10 years before it went to a production run which was sold exclusively through Lew Horton.

We had trouble identifying this gun awhile back because the features are specific to the model 845 but it is not marked (another indicator of a prototype/proof of concept) with the model number. The 4th Edition of Supica’s Catalog of S&Ws shows a photo of the model whereas the 3rd edition does not and we were able to identify this gun through the information in the 4th edition."
Click to expand...
I have seen where this was written in the SCSW 4th.

I say all of that at the start of my post because I’m a huge fan of this book, but I believe the portion that I quoted is in error.

Or, if not entirely in error, something was very much lost in translation or misremembered or some information was misinterpreted.

It doesn’t add up that the PC 845 Limited that was shipped in 1995 was somehow a model on the drawing board in 1985!

1985 was the debut of S&W’s first ever .45cal pistol and years before the Performance Center was even formed.

The PC made a number of .40cal offerings, 9mm chambered PC pistols and even debuted the .356TSW cartridge before they made and shipped the 845.

It just doesn’t seem likely that this pistol was on the drawing board for years before the PC was formed and then the PC debuts numerous models across all these different calibers before finally getting around to finishing an idea allegedly from 1985?

This would be a great place for Tom Gordon to jump in and explain this oddity written in the SCSW 4th.
 
MartinSW41 said:
We had trouble identifying this gun awhile back because the features are specific to the model 845 but it is not marked (another indicator of a prototype/proof of concept) with the model number.
Click to expand...

Even the first run of production model 845s (#170064) did not indicate the model number on them anywhere.

.



.
 
Fwiw, I have an 845 with the prefix TDA that I need to get lettered. Oddly, out of all my PC semi auto’s - it shoots the truest and breaks down and reassembles the easiest out of them all. My other “MPC” 845 that I was lucky enough to get from Red Cardinal takes forever to get back together; as-if it had yet to be cycled. The gift/curse of the ANIB gun…

I have to believe this “TDA” 845 has a story to tell. If it were anything other than a 845, I wouldn’t have bothered, but the story combined with the proximity to Springfield made for a compelling gamble. Thank goodness it’s a tack driver and the gamble paid off. Not a PCX or AIP for that matter, just an old 845 with a story to tell.
 
I definitely agree that a TDA-serial prefix PC 845 Limited is a strange, strange serial prefix for that pistol.

I have seen some random pictures on the web that show some other 845's with small anomalies that make them different (slightly!) than the pistols we know and love, so I would definitely like to see pictures of your TDA-prefix 845.

Please post them!
 
I have two 629's that are prototype guns - one has an XPX prefix serial number and the other has CPZ - both are -00xx numbers.

Bob
 
Ta-DA! 845

So, my story of this 845 comes from a pawn shop outside of Springfield, Massachusetts. I reach out to the seller on GB and ask if I can call to discuss his "Unmarked .45 ACP S&W". He tells me that the guy who brought it in was a retired quality guy from S&W and that this was the gun that he retired with. He said that he wasn't much of a shooter, but that this gun was far better than his eyes or skills could match. He had other guns, but I had only so much gun money - I didn't even ask.

As you may have already started to ask yourselves: How long did it take you to say "I'll take it"?

I had to breathe calmly as to not be too rude and cut him off in the story being told.

The best part was when I first held and broke the gun down. Everything came apart and went back together so seamlessly that I started to worry that the gun had been cycled so many times that it might be sloppy or loose(?)

I didn't know.

My friend did. He informed me that there's a very good chance that the gun had been tuned to perfection, and that we'll just have to shoot and see.

And shoot I did.

We all speak of our Grail guns, burial guns, and so on...

This is both. It will be the last to go.

Owning this gun, or rather being it's caretaker makes me feel incredibly fortunate.
 

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4006 Prototype value? Is this pistol worth more or less than nominal 4006 - I ask because of the reported frame cracking issues in the early (prototype?) 4006 pistols requiring changes to hammer etc.
 

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Shutthefrontdoor said:
So, my story of this 845 comes from a pawn shop outside of Springfield, Massachusetts.
Click to expand...
If the picture you attached is exactly how the pistol was presented to you, it is at least odd & interesting that a dual-notch 945 magazine is included.

We could argue that there was some possible overlap in 845 and 945 "production" but I think there would be unanswered questions and that while the PC may have had guns on hand at the same time, I don't think there would be much (if any) true overlap of actual fitting and building of them.

This of course goes out the window any time they happened to find particular parts and someone put them together to make "yet another one."

The first 845's were made in 1995 and the last ones were marketed as the "Model of 1998." The first run of no-dash 945's was in 1998.

Some (maybe all?) of the dual-notch cut 945 mags have a stern warning on the side that they are for the 945 ONLY but I use the dual notch mags however I please.

I would admit that if you are careless, the dual notch magazine is not the world's best idea in a 4506/4566/645/745/845 and if you plan to reload at high speed or under high stress, the dual notch magazines are a poor choice.

If that magazine left S&W with that odd serial prefix 845, we could argue that it adds credence that it was some S&W employee or insider that put the package together. I could see S&W "officially" not wanting to pair a dual-notch magazine with an 845 pistol.

What a totally crazy serial prefix! There are endless combinations of three letter prefixes that someone could concoct... but on this pistol they grab a series straight out of early 3rd Gen series, 1989 honestly, and that seems like a ludicrous choice.

HEY! Maybe the guy who put this together -- or the employee/insider that commissioned the build was asked about a serial prefix and he used his own initials for the prefix...? Which just happens to coincide with the early 3rd Gen pistol roll-out?

This is yet another example that there will be questions never answered about out favorite moment in time inside S&W and the Performance Center.

Thanks for showing this one off! :D
 
MartinSW41 said:
Did S & W use a certain prefix to denote their prototype guns? I bought a gun claimed to be a prototype. Came out of the Performance Center. The serial number starts with PCZ. Thanks.
Click to expand...

Who claimed the gun was a prototype and what provenance was provided to back up this claim? Remember - buy the gun and not the story - kinda like advertising something as “rare”.
 
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