I asked this over at T.H.R. and got some good feed back, so I thought I would ask it here. If their was so much wrong with the .9mm. why not immediatly arm the F.B.I.field agents with .45ACP. handguns after the 1986 Miami shoot out instead of developing a new round ? I think the .10mm. is a grate round & I love my model 1006, I'm just looking for the logic & history.

"imHo", and at risk of generating a firestorm, it seemed to me at the time the problem was with training and supervision. "Tactics", yes, but that is a result of training and supervision. The two good agents who perished in that firesack should not have died in such a manner. One of the perps (as I recall) had multiple wounds and like the trained fighter he had obviously been, kept on fighting to the death. At the time I suspected they were high on drugs of some kind, having dealt with pcp perps before, but later tests reported there were no drugs detected in the perps. So only prior training and adrenalin could account for the one guys ability to keep on fighting with serious wounds.
(edit, after reading: In the rush I neglected to mention the Agent who also perservered through serious injuries and finally put an end to both perps as they were, as I recall, about to exit the scene.)
Same problems, imho, with the Newhall incident years earlier.
"Tactics", yes. But tactics are a result of training and supervision. At least, "imHo". And, with apologies to anyone with contrasting view developed from a closer relationship with the actual event and people involved.

"flummoxed", and you just had to make an old fart do a Google didn't you.

I have a friend who has always smirked at my 10mm's, but he is a 40/45 man. The only 45 he owns is one I traded to him, but I finally got through to him recently by saying think 40 magnum automatic. Now he is talking about getting a G20 (10mm), just could not get him to look at a 610 4" at all. I guess he believes in volume not accuracy.

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Cranky Old Retired USN Guy

At one time, the FBI asked Sig to make them an all stainless steel P220 in .45ACP, and Sig wouldn't do then. They made them in later years.


FBI NA

The 642 is 15 ounces -- versus 23 oz. for the 640 -- a mere 8 oz. differnece.

You better let me know cuz I wanna come tooo.

Sorry, I missed that part of his post. I always assumed that the origional Norma load was issued initially and later the Federal load.

Having shot a substantial amount of the Norma JHP's thru my 1066, I never really understood why anyone would make the claim that is was too difficult to control or qualify with. I really never felt much difference between them and the 175 STHP.

We issued the 1006, starting in about 1991/92 and kept it till 2006. I'm not gonna hash over some of the things said here, but the reason the 10mm got picked #1 was politics. There's secondary consideration that it's a hell of a subgun round, but that blows the 1 type of ammo argument right out of the water if you have 10mm for the subgun and 10 lite for the handgun.

We used a custom load: 180 @ 1200 +/- 50 fps for years. Our officerettes had no problem with the load, but the N frame length of reach to the DA trigger was an issue for many.

Heh ... it can be. My wife keeps waiting for me to walk in one evening and tell her I won't be returning to work except to turn in my car.

Although there's still some things I'd like to see completed in my additional duties (some committee work, bringing at least a couple of instructors & armorers up to speed so they don't notice that I'm gone when I walk out the door), I could walk out of my regular job assignment tomorrow and not miss it by the evening when I sat down to enjoy a good cigar and an adult beverage.

De nada Hot Toddy. That's one of the pleasant things about this forum. Much more polite & cordial than some other forums. Nobody has to be strident and obnoxious about being heard, being "right" or being "super tactical" and an expert. Everybody ought to be able to sit back and enjoy some level of participation in the friendly discussion. I sure learn something new and interesting most times I log on ...

Old Navy , here's a link to another forum where some images were posted. I prefer to use the link so the person who took the time to post the images gets some recognition for his contribution (dunno the guy, myself, but it's the polite thing to do).
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthrea...ight=colt+10mm

I was thinking back to my last Colt armorer class, and some discussion about the earlier Delta Elite. The reintroduction of an improved Delta has been somewhere back on one of the back burners, and the instructor said that the general feeling at Colt was that they would probably be willing to make at least a limited run of guns if they thought they would get orders for them. The instructor said that a minimum number of about 300 had been floated about back then, and that the model might be brought back. Looks like it has, at least for a bit. Considering some of the other trivia kicked around, I'm a little curious if there's been a change in the strength of the recoil spring in this newest model.

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

Having retired a number of years ago (about 15) one very important thing to remenber is do your best to make them pay the retirement for a long time. In doing that there is a real sense of having achieved something and got back at the system. So don't wait too long, just remember the guy that said life begins at 50 was a lying SOB who didn't know what he was talking about.

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Cranky Old Retired USN Guy

I had occasion to visit the FBI building a number of years ago as part of a class trip to DC for my son and one of the things they did was an agent did a firing demonstration of the HK submachine gun and the SiG pistol. He was none too happy when I asked the question in front of the group as to why America's most venerable law enforcement agency was using guns manufactured by foreign entities...to his credit however he gave an honest answer..."We buy based on the lowest bid". And we lament the loss of domestic manufacturing, is it any wonder why?

As to this thread, fascinating reading. I love my 1076, and find it a joy to shoot. The insight provided by several posters as to the thinking inside the Bureau is a rare glimpse of how things work, and I thank you for sharing.

As a postscript, I remember reading about the 10mm MP's in one of Clancy's books, now there is a gun I would like to learn more about. Would it be possible to post the picture again, or provide some more details?

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"Stay Frosty"

Very informative thread , you gotta excuse Gunfan (hope to see ya next month in Gig Harbor) he's the king 10MM pimpdaddy of the Puget Sound . He and a coworker even got me hooked on 10MMs . Now to find a 1076 ........

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39-2,59,3913,M&P40
1006,1066

Sigp220.45

Thank you for your response about the 1076. I may be the person you are referring as one people the Gun Vault coerced into turning in their 1076 for a Glock. LOL

As you know the FBI's ultimate decision to return all its 1076s to S&W under warranty had everything to do with turf battles, egos and politics and very little to do with the pistol's or ammunition's performance. Further, over the two to three year period that the FBI and S&W haggled over the 1076 the .40 S&W had been developed. The FBI saw a way to extricate itself from the S&W entanglement and go with the .40 which had similar ballistics. Ironically, it so happened that the FBI selected Glock to provide the .40s. It also happened that Glock (and firearms manufacturers) had sued the FBI when the original contract had been awarded to S&W.

The FBI contract with S&W was never actually voided, rescinded or canceled, both sides simply "agreed to disagree" and left it at that. That is the only reason the FBI 1076 pistols made it to the commercial market rather than be destroyed as required by law. They were "warranty returns," not trade-ins (which the Feds are prohibited from doing.) It would be very difficult to find a street Agent in the FBI that was issued a 1076 that did not like it. most did not want to give them up. And some took extreme measures to hold onto theirs. Many Agents bought multiple 1076s from S&W as used guns when the FBI returned them to S&W.

Contrary to old myths and legends concerning the demise of the 1076 in the FBI it had little to do with too powerful ammunition, they couldn't handle the recoil (down-loaded FBI 10 mm round or "FBI Lite" was equal to or less than a .357), it was too heavy (only 6 oz more than Model 13 it replaced), too hard to conceal (easier to conceal, it was not as wide), too large for small frame male and female Agents (remedied with addition of resized grips), it suffered from metal failure, cracks in the frame, etc. (one, possibly two documented cases), jams and stovepipes (yes, if you limp-wrist or pull your arm/shoulder back when you shoot - like new shooters do - the pistols jam and stovepipe - Duh - it's a pistol).

I could go on but my point is that the S&W 3rd generation 10 mm pistols are not the dismal failures that history has made them them out to be. Had not the FBI rejected the 1076 the S&W 10 mm pistols might well have developed into an all around well thought of handgun. What strikes me is how little it takes to derail a new firearm or cartridge. Whether true or untrue, fact or innuendo, documented or rumors, information reaching the shooting population does in fact have a huge effect on what is available to us.

I respect everyone's opinion on the forum and I wanted to add mine to this discussion. I think the 1076 is a fine pistol that has been maligned based more on inaccurate information from the outset in the early 90's. And I would like to see the entire truth, whatever it may be, about the 1076 come to light.

Regards to everyone.

D

Howdy Old Navy.

The first comment you quoted was made by me with my tongue firmly planted in my cheek. Politics and Police work both start with a "P".

Training. Costs money and time. Then there's that whole 'interest & motivation' thing. Not everyone has all of them. More's the pity.

The cost of ammunition and range time isn't inconsiderable nowadays. I certainly wouldn't be able to shoot as much as I do if I wasn't an instructor. The primary reason I applied to join the training unit in the first place was so I could shoot & train more ... and not spend my own money. Okay, getting paid to do it didn't (and still doesn't) hurt, either.

I have no illusions that my shooting frequency will be a lot less once I retire and no longer have access to the agency's ammunition inventory and range, as well. Of course, I'll have significantly fewer guns pointed in my direction, too.

Hey, I really DO like the 10mm as a cartridge. I just lost some interest Ruger decided to change calibers on their pending P90 platform from 10mm to .45 ACP, and only released a P91 in .40 S&W, and then the S&W 10XX platform was dropped.

I knew a number of guys who used to carry .41 & .44 Magnum revolvers as service revolvers, FWIW.

I handled and fired a G20 when they were just being imported into the US, in the late summer of '90, I think it was. Interesting gun. Decently controllable even with the Norma ammunition. Offered one by the Glock rep for $315 w/3 magazines. I was just too wrapped up in my .45's (and still grudgingly accepting the 9mm) at that time. Besides, the Glock still gave me that 'Crosman pellet gun' feeling back then.

I enjoy teaching the CCW classes, for the most part. Teaching cops can have its rewards, but a significant number of them are only at the range because they're required to be there. We give them the guns, the ammunition, the targets, access to a range and the instructors to help them develop their skills ... and yet a disappointing number of them only come when they're required to be there. Even then, there's always that small number that fail to show up until threatened with disciplinary action, too. I try to interest folks in coming down on their own time for some extra practice ... all they have to spend is their time ... but not with a lot of success.

The CCW folks, on the hand, have to spend hard-earned money to get there, have taken time out of their own schedules and have bought their own guns, holsters and cleaning equipment. They generally seem to appreciate someone showing up and helping them complete their classroom training & range qualification.

I could wish more of them showed up having familiarized themselves with their chosen weapons and carry methods before the class, though.

Then, there's the folks who show up with a pistol and ONE magazine. Slows things down for everyone.

Or, the folks who show up with "mystery" ammunition and magazines, sometimes neither of which will complete a string of fire without problems, let alone the whole course of fire. I no longer let them see me shake my head when I ask about the ammunition & magazines and hear some variation of, "But I didn't want to bring my GOOD magazines and ammunition down to the range." There's a reason we've had to start imposing more rules and conditions for CCW ranges over the years.

All in all, though, I do enjoy my time with the folks in the CCW classes. If nothing else, it's refreshing to discuss firearms safety and the laws governing the use of deadly force with folks who aren't impressed with themselves because of the fact they carry a badge. I'll be one of them, soon enough.

I'm really looking forward to retirement dmc8163. All my retired friends keep reminding me to do it as soon as possible, but I still have some things to arrange ... for myself and my family ... in order to feel relaxed and comfortable about it. I could leave tomorrow if someone really annoyed me (which is great feeling by itself), and do fairly well enough, but I'd rather leave on my own terms after lining up everything the way I'd like it to be before walking out.

We can only hope. I wouldn't hold my breath about it ever becoming a mainstream LE cartridge ... (consider all of the 'non-gun enthusiasts' and folks of diminutive stature that are entering the LE field in increasing numbers) ... but I could see it enjoy a reawakening among non-LE users if the ammunition & firearms folks decide there's an increasing interest in the commercial market.

BTW Old Navy, the only reason I made the comment about the ammunition manufacturers needing to devote some attention to the 10mm is that I've repeatedly heard from at least 3 of the major gun companies, during phone conversations and in some armorer classes, that they monitor the production and sales of commercial ammunition when deciding how to manage their firearms production ... and they've all kept saying that commercial sales of ammunition was always lacking when it came to the interest displayed by the commercial market in the 10mm. In other words, they really only seemed to consider the sale of loaded ammunition, and not components (reloading), or, apparently, the success of smaller makers of ammunition for some of the 'niche' shooters.

If both the ammunition and firearms companies prescribed to the 'If you build it, they will come' philosophy regarding the 10mm, things might get really interesting in the near future.

Take care guys.

Best regards.
fb

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

With the recent massive re-organization of what bureau is in which department is the FBI still protecting the AG? I seem to recall the Bureau went to Homeland Security... or did the Bureau stay in Justice?

V/r

Chuck

The FBI studies ranked the 10mm in 180gr only slightly better than the 45ACP with a 230gr (sectional density).
Actually, the study said that if the 45 were to be adopted that they would be satisfied but recommended the 10mm because it was the best.

If you Google Martin Fackler and sectional density a lot should come up. The FBI reports are on the FBI FOIA page, unfortunately I don't have a link handy.

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NRA Certified Instructor

The best thing that came out of the 10mm program were the testing protocols that are now being used. Unless you are the one who as to shoot all the rounds until the blood can not flow from your hands anymore.

The hope was that the lower velocity round was going to answer the mail for the handgun need and that a high velocity (like the original Norma load) would be developed for the MP5/10. This never happened. I had several 1076s and was very pleased. I never had a malfuncion of any kind except during the testing when we were attempting to figure out why they were malfuncioning. I a certain that there were various problems. The miles of high speed film that was shot proves it. However, it was mind numbing to track down each malady and remidy it.. S&W bent over backwards to try and figure it out too. I still think the three biggest problems were agents that did not want the "boat anchor" and invented problems, the fact that you had to put some effort into shooting it (not a gun for limp wrists), and three that very straight walls of the case - it just does not lend itself to feeding like a 9mm Para.

Lots of modifications and tricks were used to get them reliable. The final deathblow was the inability for agents in the field to clean out the firing pin hole. As such, grime and powder would build up and prevent the pin from making contact with the primer. Ironic now that agents can strip the pin from their 1911s.

It was an ok gun for a double action (unforgiving- those that could shoot- liked them- those that could not hated them), and an even better round. It all started for the BU with a personally owned Delta Elite 10mm that was thrown into the testing for fun. Ironic since the best pistols the BU has ever issued are the colt .38 Supers and Springfield .45s.

I agree (obviously.) The 10mm is more thn the .40 S&W can, or ever, will be. this is NOT to denigrate the .40 S&W, It is simply more versatile. Period, end of sentence. The .45 is a fine round, but the 10mm has the ability to accomplish more. In it's full-power permutation, it is THE perfect submachinegun round. There is no reason to "load it down." If you wish lesser penetration, use a lighter projectile. You'll obtain a greater permanent crush cavity and exanguination. (Read: the subject will sustain more permanent tissue damage and will "bleed out" far more quickly.)

Enough said.

Scott

Well, I don't have the definitive answer for the original question ...

But I have some 'maybe-interesting' info which definitely falls within the realm of second-hand rumor. Maybe someone else participating in this thread can shed some further light on it ... and I'd appreciate hearing whether any of this stuff was in any way accurate ...

So ...

Listening to someone connected to the agency, who claimed some sort of knowledge of what was happening when the decision to adopt the 10mm cartridge was made ...

Supposedly somewhere within the FTU, some sort of internal review/report had just recently (prior to the Miami-Dade incident) been produced which was a review of handgun calibers suitable for use in the foreseeable future, and it had been determined that the .45 ACP was not going to be among the future of viable choices. Something to that effect.

Then, since nobody enjoys being wrong, obviously the .45 ACP couldn't suddenly be selected when it had just been deemed unsuitable, right?

New people at the helm later ... and what was old is now new again. Dunno. Not at all. Anybody else who has closer knowledge other than rumor have any thoughts on this?

Like I said, I have no idea is remotely connected to the actual events, but the fellow seemed rather bemused and disappointed with how things had happened when it came to the selection of a 'better' cartridge than the W-W 9mm 115gr STHP used at the time ... even though it wasn't the only caliber/ammunition used in the incident.

Maybe ... and I wouldn't be surprised ... it was merely another of those rumor-control stories which can take on a life of their own. More than likely the case.

Naturally, the 9mm continued to be used afterward, although in the heavier 147gr OSM load, as well as other heavier bullet weight 9mm loads over the years. The Federal 190gr JHP 'Fed-Lite' did eventually give way to the 180gr .40 S&W ... and most of the rest, it seems, is history.

I dislike rumor, though. Maybe sometimes entertaining if it's a harmless sort of info sharing, while sitting around enjoying a cigar ... since sometimes there is some small particle of fact hidden away within the folds of rumor ...

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

Hey Folks!
Not to flame or start a peeing contest, however I would respectfully disagree with Fastbolt.
I have shot the 10mm for a few years and like any other caliber, practice, patience and shooting will overcome slow reflexes and recovery times.
When I qualified with a SOT team a few years back, I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with the Glock I was forced to shoot because of the rangemasters preference. I was told to stick to being a Medic.
However we were allowed to shoot and carry a "Backup" gun.
Not only did I improve my times and accuracy, but I was in the top 2 shooters of the team. This was with a Colt Double Eagle in 10mm.
The rangemaster informed me that I need to carry the Colt and skip the Glocks.
Also nto to stand by him if I am shooting a Glock! LOL!!
There is simply no substitute for practice and knowing you carry weapon.
With that being said, I agree that the 10mm is not a beginners caliber with any stretch of the imagination.
I can only imagine what it is like to train the great masses in CCW and Fastbolt has my greatest respect and honor.
Just my 2 cents. Take care and God Bless...HT

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Jesus is Lord
John 3:16

Nope, no revolvers anymore. The Model 13s and Model 10s were either chopped up, turned into Simunitions guns (and painted orange), or parted out. I once saw some desk sets that were made to give to visiting dignitaries at Quantico. They had the vertical foregrip from a Thompson mounted on a base, with the cylinder of a Model 13 attached as a pencil holder.

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“What you got, ain’t new.”

Fastbolt,

You have NO idea how much you will enjoy retirement and how little you will miss “the job.” Honestly.

Back to the 10 mm. I agree with Hot Toddy. When the 1076 was tested at Quantico with the original Norma ammunition even I joined the chorus that opined that the round was absolutely not suitable as a general issue service round. “Hand cannon” was the thought that raced through my mind the first time I fired a 1076 and Norma ammunition. If that is what you mean by a "full power" 10 mm round I would agree. But the point FTU (i.e., John Hall) was making in the recommendation that the 10 mm was in its infancy and had dramatic possibilities for improvement. Instead the entire effort to advance the goal of increased protection of law enforcement officers (and the public) through better firepower was still born for no justifiable reason.

If, for example, the FBI had not unilaterally destroyed the S&W Model 1076 in the eyes of the shooting public stigmatizing the 10 mm for all time where do you suppose the 10 mm round might be at present after 25 years of development?

I submit that in all likelihood the 10 mm would have continued to develop into the standard that the .45 now occupies. I also believe that the .40 would have sprung from the development of the 10 mm and become the standard to replace the 9 mm (as it has now).

As for combat shooting the Model 1076 I have fired 6,500 rounds during qualifying and training runs on law enforcement ranges (’91; ’93-’98). This included CQB, moving targets, night shooting, etc. etc. Prior to the 1076 I fired a revolver and was a certified firearm’s instructor. I never fired better scores or had more confidence in my abilities than when I carried and fired my 1076 (s). And I don’t believe you will any LE officer that carried a 1076 on duty that will say otherwise. There was nothing wrong with the 1076 that could not be fixed through minor engineering changes, training and gun maintenance.

Zounds! Shades of the AR-15/M-16!

After my 1076 was forcibly taken from me by evildoers I was issued a Glock. Although I carried, practiced and qualified for 6 years with both a 22 and a 23 I never achieved the success I had with the 1076 and I absolutely never felt comfortable with carrying the pistol on the street.

Having taken a CCW class post retirement I see your point about the students. Most of the students in the class I took couldn’t hit the silhouette in a target at the 7 yard line with a 9 mm. But we are talking law enforcement and military use here, not civilian. (By the way, bless you for teaching the CCW classes – patience of a Saint)


As for using less powerful handguns for competition – sure, why not go with the leastest you can get away with. They would shoot .22s if you let them. Just look at the loads in cowboy action shooting.

It is my hope that the 10 mm gains more than nominal interest from a devoted but small core of enthusiasts. It has great potential if given the chance.

But I will never, ever forget John Hall’s warnings on handguns in law enforcement. To paraphrase, if you are going to carry a 9mm on the job it’s a good thing you can load it up with 15 or 16 rounds because you are going to need every one of them to stop the bad guy even if you hit him. [My apologies to John if I have butchered his eloquent admonition]

As Jeff Cooper said, an agent with a Winchester 94 could have stopped that debacle in short order. It was a case of not bringing enough gun to the gunfight (I believe the Agents were armed only with pistols and had one shotgun among them).

This and the North Hollywood bank shootout taught LE that when you are invited to a gunfight bring a big enough dance partner.

Thanks for the link, but as they say... Been there, done that. I have seen the ShotShow pictures of the new Elite. May get one, but just never really liked the feel of 1911 as well as CZ & S&W 3rd gen guns for feel of grip.

Hey just noticed that you are Sig tec, is it true that Sig says do not dry fire their guns? I was told that by a Sig rep and wondered if he was FOS or not.

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Cranky Old Retired USN Guy

No, the FBI is still the primary investigative arm of the Department of Justice. And the Bureau is still tasked with providing protection for the Attorney General of the United States. That being said, I did not know there was ever a particular pistol issued to that detail. I always assumed (shame on me) they carried whatever Bu issued or approved pistol they normally carried. Go figure.
Gonzo

Colt has brought back the Delta Elite 10mm 1911 in limited production run, just as S&W seems to have done with the model 610 10mm revolver. How long either company will produce these guns is unknown and will most likely depend on sales. I have done my part for S&W 10mm buying a 610-3 6.5 " revolver, some others here need to step up and do the same.

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Cranky Old Retired USN Guy

NOW THATS A GUN!

Locally, we had an agent who had one of these babys and he was going to let me shoot it. he was later transferred out of town and now in DC.

I never got to play with one.

The head agent here loved his 1076 and fought to keep his. I think he was one of the last ones to turn his in.

Sig220
is the model 13 grandfathered in too?

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if you're gonna be a bear...

This was the same reasoning the Gun Vault used to shrink down the POW list to next-to-nothing. And the reasoning they cited for wanting to go to "nothing but Glocks".
Gonzo

I still think it was a mistake to go to spray and pray training or attitudes. The 357 would be better in most cases then any 9mm or 40 cal for sure, but politics will be politics.

The 9mm in 1911 frame is probably about the best combo that you could come up with for IDPA or other competitive venues, very low recoil, yet as accurate or maybe more so then the 45ACP.

The 38Super would make a far better round then, IMHO, any 9mm, 40 cal, 45ACP, or 10mm for that matter for lots of reasons. Basically the 38Super power is about that of the 357 magnum and the 10mm was more like the 41 magnum. Wow who would think it would be any other way. Then enter politic's and political correctness and everthing goes to hell in a handbasket.

I thought long and hard about going 38 super instead of 10mm, but 10mm won out for several reasons. Main reasons were availability of guns chambered for those calibers, ease of buying ammo, and finally what handloading could do with the round.

I still may buy 38 super 1911 next year, but not for CCW. I don't like a 1911 for CCW unless I'm using ball ammo due to gun designed for ball ammo. However WW JHPST's seem to do real well in 1911's, and is only ammo I use in my CS45.

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Cranky Old Retired USN Guy

They certainly had to pry mine away from me. My SSRA finally threatened to shoot me with a tranquilizer dart and remove it from the holster while I was out cold. Ironically, I still had a Model 13 signed out for several months after that. Then they got it too! I was quite happy when I was carrying the 1076 on-duty and my off-duty was a S&W 3913. I believe the 4506 was still on the POW list at that time (I know the P220 was), but I was quite content with my 1076/3913 combination.
Gonzo

I don't see that we really disagree on the idea that familiarization, consistent training and skills development can mitigate the increased felt recoil of the original full-power 10mm cartridge Hot Toddy.

Maybe I should have phrased my comments more carefully.

I think the 10mm requires more training than the average owner/user might be willing to invest in when it comes to their time, focus and perhaps money. We agree that the 10mm likely isn't any body's idea of a 'beginners' caliber, and I just sort of extend that definition to encompass the 'casual' owner or user who only shoots enough to demonstrate minimally 'acceptable' skill levels when required to do so on some basic course-of-fire ... but doesn't do much, if any, practice the rest of the time.

How about the .357 Magnum and .44 Magnum?

These revolver cartridges have both seen a fair bit of LE and non-LE defensive carry throughout the years. Perhaps a significant amount of that usage has involved practice and qualification with a standard pressure or +P .38 Spl in the case of the .357 Magnum, and a .44 Special (or reduced Magnum load) in the case of the .44 Magnum ... but then the owners/users may choose to actually carry and depend on the full-power Magnum loads. I think perhaps some of them do themselves a disservice by not practicing with their chosen Magnum load at least sufficiently enough to have the earned confidence that they can perform as well on a qualification course-of-fire with the Magnum load as with the reduced load.

At a certain point in my career I realized I needed to start practicing and qualifying with full-power loads in both of those revolver calibers. Of course, I can't remember the last time I carried a .44 Magnum inside a city/suburban area, but I still run it through the standard qualification courses-of-fire upon occasion, just to remain current, and I use Magnum ammunition with bullet weights of 240 & 315gr JHP when I do.

Both of these excellent revolver cartridges have served their owners/users well over the years, but it might not be unfair to say that not all of those folks may have really developed their skills and abilities to the point where they were up to the task of being able to shoot the full-power loads as well as the reduced-power loads, especially when things became fuzzy.

I just include some of the 10mm owners with whom I've worked in that general grouping of "not as skilled as they could be in order to effectively use the cartridge". Why do a good number of IDPA folks use the 9mm, do you think? Or a standard pressure .45 ACP if they prefer .45 ACP, instead of +P?

Everyone's got to find their own level, and I think the harder recoiling calibers tend to make a number of folks shy away from them to lesser recoiling calibers. That's fine. I think, however, that the folks who are just handed a piece of safety equipment ... in this case a pistol ... might not have the interest and motivation to ever do as well with a harder recoiling caliber, especially if they aren't gun enthusiasts. When it comes to equipment like handguns, intended to serve a 'bell curve' segment of users, sometimes the equipment most easily used by the greatest number of folks may tend to be on the lesser recoiling, more easily controlled range of the common calibers. The cost of training from an agency perspective isn't exactly insignificant, you know.

BTW, I know an older gentleman (compared to me, and I'm in my mid-fifties ) who owns, qualifies with and carries a pair of Colt Double Eagles for his CCW. Does respectably well with them, too.

I think the newest Colt 10mm is an interesting pistol. About time. I'm hoping it does well enough that Colt keeps it in the lineup this time, and that the other company's models enjoy some increased sales, as well.

Now it's time for the major ammunition companies to get it in gear and offer greater quantities of 10mm ammunition, including target, hunting and personal defense loadings.

Of course, I also think the .38 Super has languished long enough, too.

Best regards. Enjoy that 10mm Colt for many year to come.

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

I have never read a more imformative thread.

The Firearms Training Unit at Quantico did not make the decision to go with the 10 mm over the .45. Actually, the Director did. The communication sent to him pointed out the merits of both the 10 mm and the .45. It was close to a dead heat. The 10 mm did have a slight edge over the .45 in some respects. One of which was that the 10 mm was a new cartridge that had not been developed to nearly its full potential while the .45 had been around for quite some time and had probably reached the peak of its evolution as a law enforcement cartridge. Regardless of which round the Director selected I think that FTU would have been satisfied with the result. What it did NOT expect, at least the extent, e.g., was the backlash from other firearms manufacturers, certain FBI personnel, and the media. The fact that S&W may have low-bid the contract and did have issues with a few of the pistols it first delivered to the FBI only complicated the situation and enhanced the position of the dissenters. The resulting agonizing long drawn out negotiations served neither the FBI nor S&W well. In the end they both lost.

Seems you never been involved in even low level politics, office or government. If that statement were true, we would not have had the M16 problems, not have went to a P92 as standard side arm, but we needed to renew the lease on a USAF base in Italy, and I hate to think of the number of different aircraft the US either took or passed up due to politics.

True, and 10mm is my choise after many years a 45ACP man. I like the flat trejectory unavailable in a 180G plus 45ACP round.

True enough I guess, but it is some what like saying which came first the chicken or the egg. Which needs to come first gun or ammo.

That just goes back to traning and firing the gun enough, most CCW civilians don't just because of the cost of ammo.

That does sound kind of silly to me, unless I am misreading, that a person should only by what LEO use.

That is true, but I have seen a lot of LEO's in years past that were helped or fudged to get them through the shooting section of the LEO course

Again most civilian agencies do not do enough arms training. That is why LEO's will sometimes fire 40 or 50 rounds or more at a person and only have a couple of hits if any.

People who shoot those courses generally have hand loaded lighter loads to help control recoil, be it 9mm, 38 Super, 45ACP or 10mm caliber.

Don't BS us BS'ers

PS: The 41 revolver died early death due to rise of high compasity autoloading pistols and IMHO the rush to have officers make up defiencies of accuracy by high volume of fire. I mean the LEO went from carrying 18 rounds on average to 40 to 60 rounds in just 3 magazines.

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Cranky Old Retired USN Guy

Amen! You could call him anytime for a straight answer and he never forgot a trainee. Heck of a musician, too. I tapped many a toe listening to him and the NA's in Crossroads.

Some of my opinions, for what they're worth - not much.

1. As an engineer - an old engineer - I've consistently observed that for any engineering project the politics are always 10 times more complex than the technics.

2. I've only fired one 10 mm, and that is the Glock. It did take me significantly longer to get back on target than it does with a 9 mm, for example.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if the 1076 was much quicker back on target - it's much heavier.

3. Much of the current consumer gun market seems to be driven by CCW. At the gun stores I frequent, it seems to be mouse guns galore. Lots of 380s. The 10 mm doesn't really go with that trend.

Someone made a good point IMHO, about people practicing with 38 special and then thinking they can shoot with .357 mag. I'm working on getting grips for my 640-3 so that I can shoot even short barrel .357 mag rounds without too much pain. It's hard. I can't imagine shooting an airweight. Or I can, and I don't want to try it. I have fired .38 +p in a 442. 5 rounds was enough.

I think that a small concealable 10 mm would have the same problems.

In a big metal pistol, I think it would do just fine, but that is more of a hunting and LEO proposition than a CCW. The Glock didn't cause any pain, just a bit slower recovery time.

In our Registered Magnum, with the Pachmeyer presentations, the .357 Magnums don't cause any pain, just a bit slower recovery.

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Regulate Banks, not guns

They swear it is just a power play to force the hiring of more gunsmiths at the vault, but I wouldn't be surprised if the POW program never came back.

The vault got pounded with last minute POW orders - a guy I work with got an order in for a Glock 21 just under the wire, and he's still waiting.

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“What you got, ain’t new.”

And , of course, now they have suspended any new POW's for the time being.

I emailed the genius that made that decision and told him that to end a program that has worked so well for so long with three weeks notice was unconscionable. It didn't do any good, but I felt better afterward

A very informative thread indeed. I have been a long time fan of the 10mm, and when the FBI adopted it and I got a 1006, I thought it was going to take off like hotcakes. But alas it died about as fast as it took off. Tis a shame, it is the .357 magnum of the pistol side of the coin, but no one seems to want to carry a magnum anymore.

SA Hall was with out question the greatest legal instructor the Bureau ever had. Unfortunately, that was not the job he should have had. As the Unit Chief of FTU he was an even better performer. It was the debacle over the 1076 that undid his rein and brought undesired turns to several other careers.

As for the Springfields, they are outstanding performers for those who shoot. They require a higher level of awareness than the Glocks, Sigs, or the 1076. One must be diligent about cleaning. Yet, for those that do - the accuracy benefit makes up for it all. It is not for everyone or every Agent. It is issued as a special purpose pistol for individuals who receive special training.

I am not a fan of the TupperPistol which is the current issue, but it is hard to deny its success and reliability as a mass-issue tool. It is however, the only weapon ever issued that lacks any redeeming aesthetic quality.

I think the BU should issue 8 shot Model 27s with 3.5" barrels as its general issue handgun.

Sigp220.45-------Consider this a personal invitation....If you're ever in Kentucky, you're welcome to look me up and we'll go to the range. By the way....don't forget to bring that MP-5/10!!!!!!

Maybe there's a difference in the recoil spring in the 10s...

I don't own any Sig's (center fire models) anymore, but had just heard that (after selling my P220) they were not to be dry fired. All 22 rimfire should not be dry fired, do to firing pin striking edge of the chamber and breaking or at least being damaged or damaging breach, or both. S&W revolvers can be dry fired as can most rim fire revolvers.

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Cranky Old Retired USN Guy

Funny, the HRT chose a para-ord frame .45 ACP auto that they spent thousands of our $ on only to discover it had mag problems.

They should've stayed with the 9mm.

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N.R.A. BENEFACTOR Member

Sig,

And here I thought I was the one they threatened to take away AUO. They got me in 10/98 when I was dumb enough to qualify with it at an HQ shoot. DOH! And then they melted it down!

There's a good reason the Agents all had S&Ws. with a few exceptions that was all they were authorized to carry (you forgot the best one though, the Model 19 4"). In the mid-80s the Bureau called in ALL Bureau owned and issued Colts. And I mean ALL. I was issued a Det. Spec. as well as my Model 13 and off it went back to the Gun Vault along with every other Colt in the entire field. The reason? The Gun Vault convinced some executive that it was too costly to maintain a parts inventory for both firearms, i.e., Colts AND S&Ws, and it was too costly to maintain gunsmiths trained to repair both types of firearms. I'm not kidding one little bit. And to make matters worse, since the FBI couldn't find another law enforcement agency that wanted the Colts they were obliged to cut them up (this was before the smelter). There were literally 1000s of Colts that would be considered rare and collectible today and their remains were buried on Quantico's artillery range. At the same time all Colts were removed from the POW list. No parts, no gunsmiths, no Colts - no problem.

So, the reason you saw only S&Ws in 1991 was that other than a few Sigs for SWAT agents that is all we could carry. A similar tragedy happened when the FBI transitioned from the Model 13 to pistols. It had been approved at THE highest level for Agent to purchase their Model 13 should they chose to. Then the Gun Vault got involved and complained that it would be too much trouble and take too much of their time. Result: buy back program nixed. Tragedy: 10,000 Model 13s destroyed.

The crusty old guys you saw carrying the Colts - were just that - crusty old guys that probably didn't pay much attention to what any suit told them to do. They wanted to carry their POW Colt and they did. But they weren't Bureau Colts unless someone pulled a fast one. And we all know that never could happen. LOL

Regards,

D

Why not give all FBI personal the option of buying one of the colts ?

[quote]Originally posted by sigp220.45:
that should be a federal violation

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if you're gonna be a bear...

Interestingly, as this thread makes it topical, there is an Auto Ordnance 10mm conversion kit for the 1911 for sale on another forum. Isn't the 10mm cartridge by its nature too powerful for the standard government model frame? Isn't the Delta Elite a bit beefier? Just curious, no dog in the hunt on this one...

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"Stay Frosty"

The Sig P220 in .45 was the issued pistol of the agents on the Attorney General's protection detail. I don't know if it is anymore.

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“What you got, ain’t new.”

And you're going to buy this ammo where-in lots of 100,000 rounds or better? At a price that fits within the budget? If no one wants to supply ammo in the quantities necessary for training and practice at a price you can afford, the round is useless. We were able to keep it in service as long as we did by long term contracts orignially piggy-backed on federal contracts for millions of rounds. When they ceased, so did the manufacturers interest.

Bluntly, we originally adopted the 10mm for exactly the same reasons as the FBI/Virginia State Police: politics. Also the my gun/ammo is bigger than yours feeling that the guys making the decision got.

Whatever advantage you may feel the 10mm might have is negated when you can't train sufficiently to properly utilize the weapons system. Much better to have a caliber/weapons system that the troops can extensively train with.