10mm FTF (yet another one) troubleshooting

[andyshoots]

Hi guys, I'll try to keep this short and concise since there's a million of these threads. my 10mm is having FTF issues, trying to identify if it will eventually break in or if I need to send it back to S&W for the 2nd time (1st time I had 2 major chips underside of the rail that I didn't see when I bought it). Turn around time was 5 weeks or so and I'd like to avoid that.

My issue is any factory ammo I shoot has FTF problems. It's maybe 3 rounds out of every 100 fired, so a fairly low percent. I noticed my underwood nickel coated / crimped ammo seems to do the best, but it's expensive so I've only shot 60 rounds or so, but no FTF.

I'm at about 400 rounds of various standard factory loads and all have FTF issues.

No clear indicator to the FTF, e.g. it's not the last round in the mag etc.

When riding the slide I can produce this FTF every time, it's almost as if the chamber geometry is just off with this gun. My 9mm m&p doesn't have this problem, and my glock also doesnt. 10mm has a tighter chamber I know..

If anyone has any idea to my exact FTF cause or any theories I am all for it. If you guys think this will break in by 1000 rounds then I can keep throwing money away at 10mm. Or if I should just send it to S&W and wait it out I can do that too..

Random notes: feed lips are *edit* very smooth, spring and follower seem fine, underwood (hotter load) has yet to FTF so I don't think it's the recoil spring since the lighter stuff FTF (sample size is small though). I've shot 5 different ammo brands in total and it happens with all of them. I purposefully hold it as tight as possible, very low chance I limp wrist it at this point as I try to find the root cause. My buddy has shot it and has had the same result of ftf.

Thanks!

 

[M29since14]

I would buy a new magazine, DO NOT TAMPER WITH IT, and see what happens. If it malfunctions with a magazine that is factory OEM, send it back, but the problem will likely be hard for them to troubleshoot if they can’t duplicate it.

In my experience, a 10mm pistol does not require a particularly hard grip. The same technique you use with your .45 should work fine with your 10mm. MHO. Good luck.

 

[Aegis]

How is the gun lubricated ??? You really cant over lube. I am an RSO at a range and retired LE. About 80% or more that shoot at the range have dry guns. I now carry oil on the days I am working. FTF could be from lack of lubrication. To give you an idea just how bad this issue is we recently ran a basic handgun class 18 out of 20 guns were dry. I also saw a handgun instructor at our range and he was showing me his gun and tells me his extractor is not working (ejecting the spent cartridge) the gun was completely dry, recommended he lube and the gun worked fine. He says he was retired LE I have my doubts.

I have the 10 with the 4.6 and approx 550 rounds down with no issues. I have shot my reloads RNFP and HP's from various mfg and bullet weights.
**
I am sooo tired of hearing "I oiled it 3 months ago or it's brand new I don't need to ". It doesn't work that way..

 

[colt_saa]

Welcome to the Forum

Did the pistol exhibit this problem before the optic was added to the slide?

Who polished the feed lips? And why? Did you do that after the problem showed up?

My M&P 10 has around 1000 rounds through it from various manufacturers as well as my hand loads and shows no issues

The Fenix 180 FMJ is probably the hotest at over 1300 FPS

 

[stansdds]

No personal experience with the M&P, but failures to fully chamber that look like that can be caused by too much extractor tension, sharp or rough edge on the bottom edge of the extractor, a magazine that is not keeping the rounds at the correct angle for proper feeding or magazine feed lips that do not release the case soon enough for reliable feeding.

 

[epj]

How is the gun lubricated ??? You really cant over lube. I am an RSO at a range and retired LE. About 80% or more that shoot at the range have dry guns. I now carry oil on the days I am working. FTF could be from lack of lubrication. To give you an idea just how bad this issue is we recently ran a basic handgun class 18 out of 20 guns were dry. I also saw a handgun instructor at our range and he was showing me his gun and tells me his extractor is not working (ejecting the spent cartridge) the gun was completely dry, recommended he lube and the gun worked fine. He says he was retired LE I have my
I have the 10 with the 4.6 and approx 550 rounds down with no issues. I have shot my reloads RNFP and HP's from various mfg and bullet weights.
**
I am sooo tired of hearing "I oiled it 3 months ago or it's brand new I don't need to ". It doesn't work that way..

doubts.


I have a new, unfired post factory 10mm M&P, 4.6”. I’ve had this gun for a couple of months and have cleaned and lubed. I am going to try to make it to the range this week. I have some health issues, and this extreme heat we’ve been having doesn’t dictate too much outdoor time. But, I’m going to pull my panties up and go shoot the beast. I’m encouraged to see that not everyone has issues with the 10.

 

[andyshoots]

I'll try to get a reply for everyone in my reply..

Apologies not sure why I worded it the way I did in my original post, magazines are both bone stock, I just meant the feed lips are very smooth from the factory. Saw a lot of suggestions in other posts to check if they are catching.

I am very anal about cleaning my firearms (they get cleaned after every time they are shot, even if it's just 1 magazine), and if I'm storing or shooting indoors I definitely over lube them. If I go shoot outdoors here in Utah I might wipe some excess off since it's dusty, but indoor range I just let it rip (probably wetter than average, have never had an issue doing this). I've shot the 10mm over 4 range trips now, all fresh cleaned, all times had FTF's.

I haven't really looked at the extractor, will take a look and compare it to my m&p 9mm (my m&p9 2.0 runs flawless with any ammo, makes me so sad my 10 won't).

I've been trying to find magazines online to buy some and rule it out, but they are very out of stock, will keep trying.

Reading all the 10mm threads I'm afraid if I send it to S&W they will shoot 10 rounds and say it works fine (lol) since my failure to feeds are only a few % of the time. But that's enough to not trust it if I go deep into the mountains here (which is why I bought it)

I actually never shot it without the optic didn't even cross my mind... I will remove it and shoot next time.

Sounds like I got a couple things to at least try, been hoping it breaks in over time as well and it's just a bit too tight, but starting to look like that might not be the case.

 

[M29since14]

My experience is similar to Colt_saa’s. My 4.6” gun (manual safety version) has run perfectly. I do not have an optic mounted. Box stock pistol and magazines. Some of my handloads have used brass a bit on the “well-worn” side. I always check them for nicks along the rim as I load the magazine so that when/if a malfunction occurs I can blame my own cheapness for using that type of ammo. So far the gun has loaded and fired everything without complaint.

I lube the plastic guns sparingly, normally with LSA. I doubt the optic on your gun is a factor, but you never know. I’d be more inclined to blame the magazines. Possibly an extractor issue, I suppose. Wouldn’t hurt to have a look at it. Good luck!

 

[swsig]

Try a simple plunk test. Drop a sample of cartridges from each type of ammo you shoot into the chamber. If some don't go in all the way, your chamber is undersized, and S&W owes you a new barrel. Admittedly, this is a remote possibility, but it's an easy check to make.

You might also try polishing the feed ramp. Don't overdo it with a Dremel, just use some car polish, Q-tips, and a cleaning patch.

Good luck, and welcome to the Forum!

 

[Aegis]

I have a Steiner MPS optic on the 10. I have had any issues related to the optic. I ran our dept's mobile range. Our issue gun was Beretta 92F which I carried for 12 years then for the next 11 years a HK USP 45. A gun with steel upper and lower must have lube. I would see FTF and stove pipes on the 92F. A polymer gun has four primary lube points so they are much more forgiving and will function with minimal lube. You need to eliminate every possible cause of the FTF that you are able to do. Compair your mags see if you can see any difference, try cycling a full mag manually thru the gun and if you have an FTF. I installed a wolff 22 lb spring and their guide rod. Definately stiffer spring.

 

[andyshoots]

Try a simple plunk test. Drop a sample of cartridges from each type of ammo you shoot into the chamber. If some don't go in all the way, your chamber is undersized, and S&W owes you a new barrel. Admittedly, this is a remote possibility, but it's an easy check to make.

You might also try polishing the feed ramp. Don't overdo it with a Dremel, just use some car polish, Q-tips, and a cleaning patch.

Good luck, and welcome to the Forum!

Good ideas, bullets plunks into the chamber good, tiny bit of play, I compared to my M&P 9 and it seems pretty much identical.

One thing I notice, maybe this is a 10mm thing, when I have the barrel out of the gun, and guide a bullet into the chamber from where the mag would be, up the feed ramp, and into the chamber, it definitely has a TON of friction. I think my Underwoods haven't had issues yet because they are nickel coated and have a lot less friction when I do this...

Does anyone else have this happen? If I push a round into the barrel from the feed ramp angle I can pretty much get it full stuck (I mean this is what's happening when I get FTF so makes sense). If I absolutely smash on it then it goes in.

Comparing to my M&P9 the bullets glide in like nothing.

I just cleaned the barrel to remove any copper/brass in there, and did a few test pushes up the feed ramp (barrel out of the gun, safety first of course) to see what is rubbing in the chamber, and it seems to be the brass case not the copper bullet.

Maybe this is normal for a 10mm? I've never owned one before. But this is my best clue yet sort of speak I think ha.

 

[andyshoots]

I have a Steiner MPS optic on the 10. I have had any issues related to the optic. I ran our dept's mobile range. Our issue gun was Beretta 92F which I carried for 12 years then for the next 11 years a HK USP 45. A gun with steel upper and lower must have lube. I would see FTF and stove pipes on the 92F. A polymer gun has four primary lube points so they are much more forgiving and will function with minimal lube. You need to eliminate every possible cause of the FTF that you are able to do. Compair your mags see if you can see any difference, try cycling a full mag manually thru the gun and if you have an FTF. I installed a wolff 22 lb spring and their guide rod. Definately stiffer spring.

oh cycling manually it definitely FTF unless I absolutely build momentum and "sling shot" it in there (even then it still FTF, probably same % as when I'm shooting it). I thought this would break in over time the more I shoot it, first time 10mm owner so I'm a bit naive.

 

[mark_lives_things]

I appreciate the report. Gotta keep documenting this stuff until S&W takes notice and revamps the 10mm design.

 

[oink]

Send it back to Smith. Try and work up the chain and talk to someone that can understand and assure the issue is fixed.

I bought a Glock 40 a couple of years ago now. It was time for my annual qualification and I always shoot a semi auto and revolver so I can carry either. I took the G40 brand new unfired. I took it out field stripped it to check for obstructions or whatever. I observed that it still had the gold colored Glock grease where it needed to be, loaded up my magazines with 10mm factory Sig FMJ and shot the qualification course without a hiccup. I don't claim I shot a perfect score. I didn't but heck I'd never shot a G40 before. I did qualify 1st time without issue. But the point is it worked. In this day there is no excuse for the continued issues you're having. Send it back.

I'm no Glock fanatic although I have a few. I have far more Smiths. However I'm confident Glock would have resolved any issue quickly if I did have any issues.

Heck, I bought an Armscor 1911 officers model new several years back. I put well over 500 rounds through it, of all sorts, also with never one malfunction. Being a 1911 and an Armscor I didn't trust it without breaking it in. Apparently it didn't need it.

Smith needs to get with the program. I will note my Shield 9 v.1 has never malfunctioned.

 

[andyshoots]

Cool, appreciate the info everyone. I will contact S&W and send it in, 3-5% FTF is not acceptable to me. We'll see what they say.

I do regret not going Glock, but I was a sucker for optic ready and taller sights to cowitness, and to be fair my m&p 2.0 9mm has been absolutely flawless over thousands of rounds. It runs weak 9 to +p and has never had a single hiccup.

 

[rosewood]

Sounds to me like the barrel feed ramp and hood have tool marks left from manufacturing. Some light polishing by hand with fine sandpaper might fix it right up. 1000grit and then 2000 grit works well with the thumb.

I have fixed lots of guns that didn't feed well this way.

 

[armorer951]

Unless I'm totally missing something, you don't describe the failure in detail. Is this a failure to eject the spent casing after firing, or a failure of the slide to close completely into battery? Double feed? Or something else perhaps.

If it's not ejecting the casings, you may be getting a clue from the Underwood ammo, in that the Underwood ammunition is loaded heavily enough to open the slide fully, while the other more "conventional" practice ammo you're using is not.

 

[rosewood]

Unless I'm totally missing something, you don't describe the failure in detail. Is this a failure to eject the spent casing after firing, or a failure of the slide to close completely into battery? Double feed? Or something else perhaps.

If it's not ejecting the casings, you may be getting a clue from the Underwood ammo, in that the Underwood ammunition is loaded heavily enough to open the slide fully, while the other more "conventional" practice ammo you're using is not.

I gather he means a failure to chamber.

Folks always use FTF, but is that failure to fire or failure to feed? I never know. Or failure to function?

Rosewood

 

[Frank Black]

Dump this junker for a real, functional 10mm. Gen4 Glock 20 by default, but there are other choices.

I'm looking hard at the Grand Power P40 10mm pistols. 14-rds and a rotating barrel to dampen recoil.

 

[rosewood]

The very 1st release of the glock 10mm had failure issues. My buddy bought one when they 1st came out. Took a lot of fighting with glock util they got him a working one. They denied the problem