10mm historical load research

[preventec47]

As we are all aware many ammo companies have been watering
down the load recipes over the last couple of decades.

I am specifically interested in finding out what the load data
consisted of in the early days of 10mm back when they
had what we call "full power" ammo and not the downloaded
FBI loads etc.

Are there other 10mm reloaders here that would be interested
in this info also ?

Scott

 

[505Gibbs]

The cartridge was introduced in '83 so your going to have to have someone that has load data from the manufacturers from that point on depending when they came up with new manuals.
The original Norma load was allegedly the hottest factory loading.

 

[aterry33]

I have heard that the 10mm stuff from Double Tap is close or matches the old loading, Buffalo Bore too. Maybe you could get some of their stuff and test it.

I know my Double Tap 200GR+P Hardcast loads KICK BUTT

 

[enidpd804]

You might try Handloads.com and 10mm forum on AR15.com. There's good info there.

 

[perrazi]

if you are wanting to shoot this in an auto, i can tell you it does have recoil and is tough on the gun with high volume use. pressures are much higher than is loaded by the big 3 companies. used to be my favorite carry gun but have changed to 400 cor-bon. almost the same speed with 45acp pressures. easier recoil and easier on the gun. if you don't have any luck finding this, send me a pm and i will see what i can do.

 

[charlies]

In my Contenders it is as hot as a 41 magnum....

 

[oldRoger]

I am interested as well.
I have been shooting 10 mm for nearly 20 years but for various reasons did not start reloading until the last six or so.

I have saved some old information which may be of interest. Ken Waters published a 10 mm article in the July 1989 edition of Handloader Magazine. Most of the loads here were I suppose warm, not really hot.
Dick Medcalf published an article in Shooting Times March 1991, He mentions the lack of published loads for the 10 mm, only the Sierra Handgun Reloading Manual (1990) contained any. I have that manual, it has loads for three bullets and they are not hot. How ever he does survey the published data available at that time (I suppose late 1989 given the lead-times for publishing). Some pamphlets and load sheets were available and he reproduces some of them.
I suspect that this material will not copy well.

The best old published source may be Accurate Book #1, unfortunately I have a copy of only one page that is the loads for lead. The lead loads at least are complete; covering AA 2,5,7,& 9 and bullets 145 through 205 gr we now would consider them very warm to hot for lead.

 

[FEG]

The first edition of the Lyman Pistol and Revolver Manual has some warmer loads.

 

[preventec47]

I have heard that the 10mm stuff from Double Tap is close or matches the old loading, Buffalo Bore too. Maybe you could get some of their stuff and test it.

I know my Double Tap 200GR+P Hardcast loads KICK BUTT

------------------------------

No doubt you are right about it kicking butt but it is well
documented that Double Tap significantly exaggerates
their performance. It still may be good ammo and even
better than the run of the mill mild stuff but I dont like
it when a company consistently inflates their claims.

It tells me their marketing strategy is to deliberately
mislead people into paying for their overpriced stuff.
Yes I did buy two boxes of their stuff and chronographed
it in a gun with an inch longer barrel than they were making
their claims for.

I cannot be certain about Buffalo Bore but I have to ask myself
how they are able to exceed by wide margins the best
performance loads recommended by all the gunpowder
companies. I maybe am a little hypocritical here as that
is the reason for this thread after all..... to exceed
the watered down load recipes of todays load manuals.

 

[681ismyfavorite]

what ever the loading manuals tell you, if youre not pushing a 170gr. bullet at 1,400 f.p.s. from a 5" bbl and a 200gr. bullet at 1,200 f.p.s. from a 5" bbl youre not dulpicating 10mm balistics.

i know i know, many manufactures "claim" these numbers, but they are prooven not to be even close when so fired out of regular stock guns by regular people at sea level or a little above it.

unless you consider a claim of 1,400 f.p.s. and get an actual 1,275 f.p.s. from the same model stock gun close.

 

[preventec47]

if you are wanting to shoot this in an auto, i can tell you it does have recoil and is tough on the gun with high volume use. pressures are much higher than is loaded by the big 3 companies. used to be my favorite carry gun but have changed to 400 cor-bon. almost the same speed with 45acp pressures. easier recoil and easier on the gun. if you don't have any luck finding this, send me a pm and i will see what i can do.

I checked into the 400 Corbon and every reference I could find
complained about feed problems so I abandoned the idea.
You know you could take the same weight bullet you are shooting
in the 400 Corbon and load it to the same velocity in 10mm and
you would have identical recoil with a lot less trouble.

( assuming you are shooting 135gr bullets because that
is the lightest I know to be available in the 10mm )

Regarding damage to the guns. for the FBI SW fired the HOT
LOADs in a 1076 for 18,000 rounds without apparent damage
of any sort. I only plan to shoot the hot stuff enough to
know it is reliable and reserve for serious matters. Otherwise,
just like 357 and 44 magnum owners, for just plinking around
I will use the "special" mild type stuff.

 

[perrazi]

don't know about your references, but mine has not had any failure to feed in over 5000rds. it is a para-ord p-14 with a bar-sto bbl. you will find that rounds like the cor-bon and 357 sig will feed well. also have one these that has fired over 3000rds with zero problems. on the fbi tests, i choose to not carry a gun that heavy for all day. also mine are all on 1911 type frames as i have never liked the third gen smith guns. that's just my finding on it from about 25yrs of playing with them. your mileage may vary. the above examples are pistols that i do and have bet my personal safety on a daily basis.

 

[preventec47]

If anyone has a real interest in 10mm stuff I have
created a place or repository to store all the data
that I find such as bullet info and load recipes as
well as History and special pistols etc.

check out the FILES and PHOTOS areas here as
well as my idea of a database of specific loads.
In the FILES area I am uploading all of the various
Gunpowder Mfg reload manuals etc.

Also there is a LINKS section where people can share
other web resource locations etc.

10mm : 10mm Guns


These YAHOO groups don't have the discussion forum
capabilities like here but it offers a great way
to pool and stockpile a lot of info for sharing etc.

 

[epj]

How do you access this site? Do I have to join something or log into the site?

 

[preventec47]

Yes, I think you have to sign up for yahoo which is not much
different than signing up for most forums. Yahoo is the largest
host on the worldwide internet for groups discussions with over
two million different groups. I assume if you access the group
and are not a member Yahoo would steer you into signing up.
Let me know if there is a problem.
Thanks

 

[Ctk1981]

Regarding doubletap ammo....

It wasn't always this way....hopped up claims, degraded performance, bullet switching fiasco, etc.

I have a few boxes of double tap ammo that is nearly 5 years old. I chronographed a few rounds last week.

200 grain XTP 1200 FPS from a 4.6" barrel is the claim on the box. On my chronograph (CED M2), (1155 ft elevation) the load went 1150 avg for 5 shots threw a G29 barrel (kkm precision)...thats 3.78" barrel, a loss of 50 FPS from the claim with ~1 inch less barrel.

Those were the loads that made doubletap famous....why he stopped producing the hot loads is beyond me, a lot of people are pretty upset these days about them not being up to snuff.

 

[Mortech]

Nice to have another 10MM resource , joined up

 

[preventec47]

Regarding doubletap ammo....
200 grain XTP 1200 FPS from a 4.6" barrel is the claim on the box. On my chronograph (CED M2), (1155 ft elevation) the load went 1150 avg for 5 shots thru a G29 barrel (kkm precision)...thats 3.78" barrel, a loss of 50 FPS from the claim with ~1 inch less barrel.
.

---------------------------
Yea, I would be happy with that.
Instead I am having to do all this research, buy reloading
equipment and do the load workups. Anyway, learning
is fun. I've done a lot of load workups with magnum
rifles to signs of pressure and then back off some and
I dont think pistols will be any different.

I bought the 155 and 165 DT stuff just a few weeks ago
and both were 100 fps slower and my barrel was
an inch longer then the DT test barrel (my 1006 )

BTW, altitude makes no difference at all. Temp can
make a difference however depending on the sensitivity
of the powder chosen.

Think about it. say 38,000 psi on one side of the
bullet and on the other side either 14.7 at sea-level
or 7.4 at 18,000 feet

The point is there is only 7 psi difference at those
extreme altitudes when we are dealing with 38,000psi

From 1,000 feet to 5,000 ft altitude there would only
be a 3 or 4 psi difference........

I am partial to the 150 to 165gr bullet weights for
self defense as I feel the 180s and bigger are clearly
for hunting etc. One benefit is that the shorter bullets
allow us more space in the case for more slower burning
powder and expansion to keep the pressures down.

So far, a 155gr FMJ bullet from XTREME bullets
is the shortest I have been able to find at just
.512 in length. Even though FMJ it has a real soft
lead core and I believe the bullet would deform nicely
at higher velocities.

 

[Ctk1981]

---------------------------
Yea, I would be happy with that.
Instead I am having to do all this research, buy reloading
equipment and do the load workups. Anyway, learning
is fun. I've done a lot of load workups with magnum
rifles to signs of pressure and then back off some and
I dont think pistols will be any different.

I bought the 155 and 165 DT stuff just a few weeks ago
and both were 100 fps slower and my barrel was
an inch longer then the DT test barrel (my 1006 )

BTW, altitude makes no difference at all. Temp can
make a difference however depending on the sensitivity
of the powder chosen.

Think about it. say 38,000 psi on one side of the
bullet and on the other side either 14.7 at sea-level
or 7.4 at 18,000 feet

The point is there is only 7 psi difference at those
extreme altitudes when we are dealing with 38,000psi

From 1,000 feet to 5,000 ft altitude there would only
be a 3 or 4 psi difference........

I am partial to the 150 to 165gr bullet weights for
self defense as I feel the 180s and bigger are clearly
for hunting etc. One benefit is that the shorter bullets
allow us more space in the case for more slower burning
powder and expansion to keep the pressures down.

So far, a 155gr FMJ bullet from XTREME bullets
is the shortest I have been able to find at just
.512 in length. Even though FMJ it has a real soft
lead core and I believe the bullet would deform nicely
at higher velocities.

Not all 180 are meant for hunting. Speer makes a GDHP for short barrel that has a massive hollow point and is tailored for short barrel guns. I contacted them about it and was told the optimum velocity for impact/expansion was 800-1000 FPS. Nosler just released a 180 grain HP also, I have 500 of those on order.....has 7 five star reviews so far and people are saying these also have rather large hollow point cavities.....only problem is the reloading data nosler provided me was extremely weak, I can tell already they provided some watered down loading information.

And if winchester ever gets off their butt and actually makes enough 175 grain silvertips for back orders, that is one heck of a bullet for the 10mm. I have a few 155's from them and have been chronographing loads with them but have held off until my next two 10mm show up with the longer barrels.

Oh, I noticed on the 10mmtalk forums you were studying data for 155 grain loads....it appears one manual you did not have access to was the hornady. One of the top loads they have listed for the 155 xtp was 15.1 grains of aa #7 for a max load and a speed of 1450 FPS from a 5" barrel. Also listed is 12.9 grains of Blue Dot for the same speed.

155 and 165 bullets are fine for guns with longer barrels....but for the G29 bullets with heavier weights and faster burning powders seem to work better. Just not enough barrel to burn all the powder effeciently with the lighter/slower stuff. AA #7 is showing a lot of promise for me for full power loads in various weights.

 

[Ctk1981]

Oh...and please dont confuse a plated bullet with a FMJ. There is a huge difference. Plated bullets are generally loaded and treated as cast bullets. Launch them too hard and you can shear the plating right off of them. Xtreme plated bullets are made to diameter of a jacketed bullet, but most plated bullets out there are actually sized like a cast bullet. Berrys are .401, rainer .401, etc. I have launched the berrys 9mm HP out of a 357 sig really hard with no ill effects, but I use it strictly for practice only. Also, do not over crimp on a plated bullet....you can easily over crimp and cut right through the plating.

 

[preventec47]

.it appears one manual you did not have access to was the Hornady. One of the top loads they have listed for the 155gr-XTP was 15.1gr of AA #7 max at 1450 FPS from a 5" barrel.
.

CTK-
Could you please verify your manual version and data for the AA#7 with 155gr XTP bullet. Since my post on 10Talk I have received some info
fm Hornady manuals.
I dont have the actual manuals but the info reported to me in
my research is as follows:

> 155 XTP  13.9gr AA#7 1400 fps  Hornady 4th edition
> 155 XTP 14.6 AA#7 1455fps Hornady 7th edition ? ? ?

Your data shows .5 gr more than the other info I have received
from Hornady manuals and is very helpful.


I have ordered the a summary manual which was published in yr 2000
and am hoping there will be some older and higher performing
loads. see the attached image

After you verify, I will update and post my summary of the best loads found to date for 10mm

Thanks Much
Scott

 

[Bruce51]

Hornady data

Preventec47, I have some of the early data sheets for the 10MM and forty in a pdf.
I can attach it to an email and send it along to you so you can compare the data.
Feel free to share or post the info.

The 10MM data is from Hornady.

BTW There are 3 pages of 10mm data and 4 pages for the 40cal.
This data seems to compare with what is currently published but predates loading manual data.

PM me your email if you want the data.

Bruce

 

[681ismyfavorite]

i dont reload, no room for it and dont have the $$$ for start up costs anyway.

so you can see why im disappointed in DT's fall from grace.

i prefer the DT 135gr. Nosler h.p. for my G20 and G29.

i do this because DT claims 1600 f.p.s. for this load from a stock G20 bbl, but i know im getting a bit less than that i dont want to go heavier and have escentially .40cal "+p" loads because they fail to live up to the box flap velocities.

BB makes a true 10mm velocity round but the lightest they have is 180 grain bullets and $1.50 each.

CB makes what DT has become, which is a mid powered 10mm loading.

Win STHP never was full powered because they never got the 1290 f.p.s. from real world guns.

Hornandy is mid powered at best.

Federal is a joke.

if DT (Mike McNett) ever got back to basics id come back to his ammo, until then hes not doing anything grand, anymore anyway.

 

[ExplorerOne]

The original Norma loads were HOT.

 

[preventec47]

I prefer the DT 135gr. Nosler h.p. for my G20 and G29.
.

Hey 681
I was originally interested in the 135gr also but there
is an online youtube test of various 10mm loads and I cannot
remember where but the 135gr Remington HP completely disintegrated
in gelatin at 10mm velocities.
I am attaching a photo of the bullet fragments left over.
That is why I moved up to 150 -165 gr loads.

It could well be that the Nosler 135gr is a lot tougher... we
need to look into it dont we.

I am of the general(very) opinion that the wound channel volume
of all bullets of different configuration are similar, it is just
that some wound channels are shallow and large in diameter
and others are very deep with narrow diameter. This is seen
easily in the gelatin photos of bullet tests. Like you,
I would rather have 12 in of penetration with a 5 inch wide
hole instead of a 28 inch penetration with a one inch
wide hole.

 

[Ctk1981]

Hornady 7th edition manual, page 861.

15.1 is the max for AA no 7 and velocity is 1450.
14.6 is shown as 1400 FPS.

Good luck with your research.

CTK-
Could you please verify your manual version and data for the AA#7 with 155gr XTP bullet. Since my post on 10Talk I have received some info
fm Hornady manuals.
I dont have the actual manuals but the info reported to me in
my research is as follows:

> 155 XTP  13.9gr AA#7 1400 fps  Hornady 4th edition
> 155 XTP 14.6 AA#7 1455fps Hornady 7th edition ? ? ?

Your data shows .5 gr more than the other info I have received
from Hornady manuals and is very helpful.


I have ordered the a summary manual which was published in yr 2000
and am hoping there will be some older and higher performing
loads. see the attached image

After you verify, I will update and post my summary of the best loads found to date for 10mm

Thanks Much
Scott

 

[681ismyfavorite]

Hey 681
I was originally interested in the 135gr also but there
is an online youtube test of various 10mm loads and I cannot
remember where but the 135gr Remington HP completely disintegrated
in gelatin at 10mm velocities.
I am attaching a photo of the bullet fragments left over.
That is why I moved up to 150 -165 gr loads.

It could well be that the Nosler 135gr is a lot tougher... we
need to look into it dont we.

I am of the general(very) opinion that the wound channel volume
of all bullets of different configuration are similar, it is just
that some wound channels are shallow and large in diameter
and others are very deep with narrow diameter. This is seen
easily in the gelatin photos of bullet tests. Like you,
I would rather have 12 in of penetration with a 5 inch wide
hole instead of a 28 inch penetration with a one inch
wide hole.

for private citizen defense i dont have a problem with that 135gr. 10mm round having jacket and core separation if it creates a massive wound and still penetrates well. this is not using the fbi gel results. they are using homogenous media and want ~12+" due to light barriers that migh be encountered like a car door or windshield.

there is a you tube vedio series of a guy using DT loads from a G20 firing through a refrigerator, car wind shield, pork ribs, "jello" and a cow heart.....i like what i saw the DT 135gr. do.

i will try to google and post the link.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdB8yo085Sw

this same guy does other "tests" with DT ammo on real world stuff. of course he didnt chrono the speed of any of it....

 

[epj]

I recently bought a 1006. My previous 10mm experience has been with a Colt Delta and Norma ammo in the early '80's. The gun exhibited marginal accuracy, lots of hammer bite, and a pretty stout kick. The kick didn't bother me that much, but the other detractors did.
I bought some Remington factory ammo, as well as some Georgia Arms ammo advertising 1250 FPS 180 gr. FMJ. It was about the same power level as the Remington, judging from the recoil.

My handloads consist of some 180 FMJ's loaded to a middle of the loading manual road load, and some 175 cast bullets loaded to 950+/-. The cast bullet loads are pretty wimpy, but they happen to be very close to the original notion of the .41 Mag police load, ie .40 cal/200 gr./900-1000 fps. That was supposed to be the ideal combination as a self defense loading. This load makes an ideal range load for me. It knocks down steel plates with pretty good authority, is comfortable to shoot, accurate, and doesn't throw my highly prized 10mm brass too far into the weeds. If I were going to hunt with the 10mm, I'd load it hotter, and likely buy a 610 to shoot it in. Not that the 1006 wouldn't handle it. I really don't want to abuse the gun or myself, since repair parts for both may be short supply.
To me, it's interesting to have a gun capable of some really high performance, but I have little need of the really hot stuff. With the weight of the 1006 I can easily put multiple hits on target very quickly with the milder rounds. This makes me smile.