10mm Prototype Mags?

[ahoss79]

I recently won an auction for what was listed as a S&W 15 round 10mm magazine. Listing claimed that it would fit all S&W 10mm models, which I knew it should. The magazine is marked 10mm, is numbered to 15 and has an orange follower , but does not have any S&W logo on it.

Well I received this magazine today and tried inserting it into my 1076. Wouldn't fit. Reasonable person would know that it wouldn't fit into any of my other 10mm's, but I tried it in all of them. Wouldn't fit. I compared it to my other 10mm magazines. Definitely a S&W, but it was a tad wider than my 10mm magazines. Figured I would try it in my 4506. Sure enough, fit perfectly. Loaded some 45's in it and was able to load 13 rounds in it.

I know S&W 10mm 15 round mags are rare, but I did not know they made higher capacity 45xx series mags. Are they common? I paid a pretty price for this mag and am a little irritated that it is not a 10mm mag. I do have a 4506 though and if this is not a common mag, maybe I should keep it.

Even though the seller, a national gun parts store, stated that the item is "sold as is", I believe that the claim that it is a 10mm and fits all S&W 10mm models is misleading, since it won't.

What's everyone's thoughts? Should I keep it anyways? Should I ask for full refund and return it? Should I ask for a partial return? Since it was "sold as is" should I just accept it as is? I'm not really thinking straight since I am irritated, so any advice would be appreciated. Thanks.

 

[handgunner356]

Never heard of higher cap 45 mags that weren't aftermarket. If you paid anywhere near what they get for 15rd 10mm mags then I'd be seeing about getting my money back. I never have actually seen the 15rd mags so I can't tell you how they are marked, but I would think that they would have the S&W logo or stamp somewhere on them. The 10mm mags I have seen all had the little "bump" on the side of them to keep them out of 45 frames.

 

[ahoss79]

Added pictures above with the magazine fully inserted into my 4506. There is a small lip on the front portion of the mag that when fully inserted, makes contact with the bottom of the mag well. I'm guessing for stabilization. Also leads me to beleive that it was only designed for the full sized 45 series guns. I have not found any info anywhere as to S&W making any higher capacity 45xx series mags. This mag does not function well at all, which also leads me to beleive that this may be a prototype. Any thoughts.

 

[Shadow1006]

ahoss, at least you have the 4506 to utilize the magazine....it may me a rarity. It was clearly marked as pictured as 10mm. I was a little leery seeing the orange follower in the magazine, because all of the ones I saw in pictures had the yellow followers. I actually bid on it as well.
Good luck!

 

[4506517]

Personally, I think that is pretty cool. I had a couple aftermarket high capacity magazines included in a 4506 deal once. They were horrible. They looked horrible. They functioned horrible. However, I had a buddy make me an offer. I really tried to talk him out of them, but he wanted them.

Yours actually looks factory. Im not fully convinced that it is, but it still looks cool. I would try it at the range and see how it worked. If it worked, I'd keep it and use it at the range.

I am a huge proponent of the online auction. HOWEVER, sometimes you get burned. I've been burnt a couple of times. Once I received a gun TOTALLY different than what was listed in the auction. It was a nightmare to return. I have to be fully convinced to participate in an auction, but I make sure that I'm comfortable with the fact it could blow up in my face.

I conclusion, I'd keep it. Probably be worth more hassle than it is worth. If you are really steamed, I'd leave poor feedback for the seller. It really is a cool looking magazine, and I'd be willing to bet it works great.

 

[BUFF]

"Factory-made?" Probably.

"Smith & Wesson factory-made?" Doubtful.

 

[ahoss79]

Appreciate the feedback. Actually the magazine does not function well at all. I can get the first couple rounds to function, then none at all. That is why I'm thinking this was a prototype.

 

[ahoss79]

Took another close look at the mag. When I first got it, I noticed there was what I thought was a "wear" line between the number 11 and 12 holes on the mag. After taking that closer look, I've realized that it looks like this was originally a 11 round mag and they added the 12-15 section on, by welding that was ground down. You can barely see where it had been connected. Whoever did the connection actually did a pretty good job.

I was able to get ahold of the seller and they said I could return it for a full refund.

 

[dacoontz]

That's pretty cool none the less. It would be great if you could get it to be fully operational. If you look through the FBI 1076 thread than you'll see the one I posted a picture of that is factory original.

I would be curious to know what it sold for, if appropriate to ask. You could always send me a PM if you'd like and I'd be more than happy to tell you what I paid for the one I picked up. It was not cheap but worth every penny in my perspective. Hi cap 10mm mags are rarer than actual FBI issued 1076's.

 

[ahoss79]

Found a S&W logo on the magazine baseplate. Also, here are some pics of the area where the magazine was connected between the 11 and 12 holes.

 

[snowcat]

Wow, i would be pissed! thinking it was an original 10mm 15 rounder!

 

[ikor]

They did make some higher capacity mags for the FBI IIRC...maybe someone here can verify that?

 

[handgunner356]

Seeing the picture I recall someone posting a early prototype mag made from the 4500 mags. It had the wedge shaped indents at the front of the feedlips similar to yours. It may make yours even more rare but pretty useless unless you had a early prototype 1006.

OK, see if this link works;http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-wesson-semi-auto-pistols/336251-odd-10mm-magazines.html

 

[ahoss79]

Thanks handgunner 356. Those wedge shaped indents are exactly like what is on this oddball that I have. Those indents are what is preventing reliable feeding in my 4506. They are pinching on the rounds just a little too much and will not allow the round to angle up enough. I beleive that if I crimped them a little that it would feed fine. The lips appear as they would hold the rounds adequately without the indents. I am somewhat reluctant to do any modifying to this before I figure out exactly what it is or possibly decide to send back.

 

[handgunner356]

That was one thing that S&W did between the 9/40 & 45/10 guns that other manufactures seem to skip. They made the gun frames different so the mags couldn't be interchanged. The 45 and 9mm mags were wider and wouldn't go into 10mm and 40 frames. Then they put "Bumps" on the thinner 10mm and 40 mags so you couldn't put them into 5900/4500 guns.

 

[9146gt]

That was one thing that S&W did between the 9/40 & 45/10 guns that other manufactures seem to skip. They made the gun frames different so the mags couldn't be interchanged. The 45 and 9mm mags were wider and wouldn't go into 10mm and 40 frames. Then they put "Bumps" on the thinner 10mm and 40 mags so you couldn't put them into 5900/4500 guns.

11 round .40 mags will fit and function fine in 5906 series guns.

Tom

 

[ahoss79]

The more I think about this, the more I beleive that this mag was made for a prototype S&W 10mm, before they realized that they should make a different size magwell and mag for 10mm's and 45's. I'm pretty sure I could make it work for my 4506, thought that would require a little modification to the indents and would probably mess it up enough in case I ever did run across that 10mm prototype. Thanks for all the feedback. Needed it, because it never really occurred to me that it could be a mag for prototype gun.

 

[dmc8163]

If this a real 10mm 15 round magazine prototype you have a seriously rare piece of S&W history. Congratulations. Real FBI 15 round mags are hard enough to come by. My 15 round mag has the S&W logo stamped on both sides and a yellow follower. I don't mean to imply anything about this magazine but the weld is very curious. How hard would it be to weld the two pieces together?

 

[ahoss79]

Thought I would revive this post since I ended up running into a couple more of these odd magazines. A week ago I ended up purchasing two 9 round 10mm mags with the orange followers. Once again these magazines will not fit any of my S&W 3rd Gen 10mm's, but they will fit my 4506. 45 rounds will go into them, but you can tell they were not made for 45's. 10mm rounds fit them perfect. These two other mags make me even more convinced that there was a S&W 10mm prototype made that started off from a 45xx frame. Now I just need to find that gun(s) so that I can fit it to my mags!

 

[dacoontz]

Hopefully DMC will chime in. I believe some of the prototype 10mm's did start life as 45's. That would make these mags a possible part of that story and thus very, very cool.

 

[BLUEDOT37]

Prototype 1006 mags

Seeing the picture I recall someone posting a early prototype mag made from the 4500 mags. It had the wedge shaped indents at the front of the feedlips similar to yours. It may make yours even more rare but pretty useless unless you had a early prototype 1006.

Looking at some pictures in a July-1989 Shooting Times article, and an Oct-1989 Handguns article of the prototype 1006 being shown at the time, the lip of the magazines are like the ones ahoss79 has posted (#19). The articles say that "V" notch/indentation was added to hold the smaller 10mm round in place & to keep it from nosing up vertically & jamming. The wording implies (to me) that they were modified 4506 magazines. We know that the production 10mms got their own unique magazine so these do appear likely to be of the early prototype style.

I'd keep them & not modify them for use in your 4506. I'd think they'd be very valuable to whomever has the prototype gun & wanted magazines that fit it.

(The 4506 mag is on the left & the prototype 1006 on the right in the attached pic.)

 

[18DAI]

IIRC the first S&W 10mm prototype was a modified model 645. I believe the SCSW 3rd edition mentions it and gives the serial number too. Regards 18DAI

 

[dmc8163]

I have never been able to confirm what pistol formed the basis for the 1076. I have been told it was the 645, the 4506 and the 1006. I would really like to find out the true answer. I will note that I have two 1076s that have "1006" etched inside the slide. And all three of the test pistols provided to the FBI were stamped "1006." As for the 10mm 15-round mag, the FBI was never able to get it to work. S&W made several changes including one to the barrel ramp but nothing worked. And as you all know they were never issued to street Agents. I only know of firearms instructors that received the mags. The orange followers are very interesting as well. When the FBI discovered the yellow followers were cracking S&W responded that it was not its fault. The Agents were dropping the mags onto blacktop, concrete, etc. and cracking them. S&W realized that argument was a loser and set about testing alternate materials. The tested followers were black, white and steel. Obviously the white was selected. My .45s do have the orange follower.

 

[ahoss79]

Thanks to everyone who was able to post with some of their knowledge. I was unaware of the first 10mm prototype being a 645.

 

[BLUEDOT37]

Prototype 1006

I don't recall seeing a 645 specifically mentioned in those articles but they did say S&W already had the 10mm on the back burner when the FBI approached them in Oct-1988 (when the 4506 was already developed) so it's feasible they could have experimented with the 645 before the stated 4506 experiments. (The .45ACP 645 was submitted to the FBI in Aug-1987 for testing/evaluation, along with five other manufacturers, in search of a replacement field pistol.)

This is what the prototype in the 1989 article looked like. Early 4506 or 645?

 

[18DAI]

I believe that is the 645 based 10mm prototype. If you read either the model 645 description or the 10mm section of the SCSW 3rd edition, it gives the serial number of the 645 10mm prototype.

X guns were all prototypes AFAIK. Some, a few, found there way into private collections. I've never seen one in person though.

I will look through my old posts here. I think we discussed the 10mm 645 some time ago here. Regards 18DAI

Edited to add: I found it. The first S&W 10mm pistol was the "Novak Elite". It was a 645 (serial number TAK7210) that Mr Novak modified into a 10mm gun.

 

[dmc8163]

I love this forum. Can we get more information on the photo of the prototype 1076? Magazine, date, etc. And 18DAI can you furnish additional information on the Novak Elite? I have never run across either of these item and would like to do some detailed research. Thanks, dmc8163

 

[BLUEDOT37]

Early S&W 10mm articles

Can we get more information on the photo of the prototype 1076? Magazine, date, etc...

Are you referring to the photo I posted? Is this what you wanted?

Looking at some pictures in a July-1989 Shooting Times article (S&W Targets the 10mm), and an Oct-1989 Handguns Magazine article (S&W's Wonderten) of the prototype 1006 being shown at the time...

 

[dmc8163]

My apologies. In my excitement I didn't make the connection. Could you post or can I get a copies of the entire articles. It is important to the story of the FBI 1076 if it can be proven that the S&W 645 .45 cal. prototype was shown or given to the FBI, i.e., the Firearms Training Unit, in 8/87. Very important. Query, why would S&W be testing a 10mm pistol in 1987 well in advance of the FBI, or anyone else, expressing official interest in it? dmc8163

 

[snowcat]

Back on the 15 rounders, anyone ever find out how many were produced, or how many are accounted for now?
Thanks