125 gr 357 mag loads fired in a M19 ?

[Gress]

Recovered another link to an old article on the topic
http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/PDF/hl248partial.pdf
(page 20)

 

[noshow]

Has anyone ever used the Federal Premium Vital-Shock CastCore 180gr loading? It's loaded with a 180gr hard cast gas checked bullet. Because it's muzzle velocity is only 1130 fps and it's length & weight will cause less hot gases(unburned powder)I think it would be less likely to cause those forcing cone cracks. I will try to post a link below. Any thoughts/opinions welcomed

http://www.federalpremium.com/products/details/handgun.aspx?id=327

 

[shawn mccarver]

Originally posted by oldschool63:
I picked up a Model 19-3 last weekend and I am going to shoot it Saturday. I read on a few other boards that it is not good to shoot 357 mag 125gr loads in a M 19. Is this true? If so why. What about 125gr 38spl loads?
Thanks

No problem with the 38s. The problem with the 125 grain magnum load is not so much the bullet weight, but the powder and the pressure to get that 1400 fps velocity out of that load (in 4 inch), which causes flame cutting and other problems in constant use. I never had any problem using the 125 grain SJHP magnum load IN MODERATION in any K frame. Use MOSTLY 38s for practice and use the magnums for occasional familiarization and carry and your K frame will last the rest of your life and that of your children, provided you take care of it.

 

[Gress]

noshow,
I am also interested in finding safe 180gr ammo to use as a hunting load in my M66.
I was considering trying buffalobore 180 gr. LFN-GC (1400 fps ME 783 ft. lbs.) but was not sure if it is a safe one for the gun.
Thanks for posting it seems like the federal's one is a way safer bet. Buffalo's one is definitely hot and looks more attractive from the power/efficiency standpoint.

 

[RonJon]

I bought a Model 19-5 at a pawn shop. It was a real beauty for only $300 OTD.

But when I got it home and cleaned it up, anticipating taking it to the range, I discovered that the forcing cone was cracked at the 6 o'clock position. This crack was camouflaged by the dirt on the forcing cone when I inspected it at the pawn shop. And pawn shops are all sales are final!

I called Smith & Wesson and they issued me a call tag to pick it up and, to make a long story short, I got a brand-new 686 free as a replacement for it since there are no more barrels for them to fix the 19s.

Ron

 

[tipoc]

The fella over to Gunblast has it about right. The area of the frame where it is tapped to receive the threaded barrel has only a thin web of steel left after the threading. When a bit of lead builds up in the forcing cone and this is followed by a higher pressure jacketed load excess pressures can occur in an area that is thin to begin with.

If you keep the area of the forcing cone clean the over rated jacketed .125 gr. loads can be used IMHO.

tipoc

 

[rburg]

Ever wonder why folks think a 357 out of a J frame has plenty of margin for safety, but the much larger K frame components are dangerously unsafe?

If you want to run maximum loads of 357 ammo, buy and shoot an N frame. Why bother stopping at L frame guns? Some simple answers. Most people can't survive a steady diet of such loads in J frame guns. Their hands stop working before the gun does.

As a practical matter, those of us with N frame guns don't shoot all 357s in them, we shoot 38s, just like a lot of us shoot more 44 Specials than magnum loads. Part of that could be that many of us pay for our own ammo, but the police departments that suffered the failures were paying with public dollars for that ammo.

As pressures go up, costs of reloading go up, too. Brass fails much sooner, and as the velocity goes up, so does the need for jacketed bullets over our cheap cast bullets. Those that want to play with max velocities and even hard cast bullets, welcome to the world of leading. I know, you're favorite cast alloy never leads.....

 

[18DAI]

If I thought that there was a real problem with the 19/66 firing magnum rounds, I would not own so many.

My two high round count K-frame magnums are a 19-4 with over 12,000 rounds (about 3000 of those were 158 grain 357's) and an ex Chicago PD 66, with who knows how many rounds through it (I've put just over 6000, 2500 of those 158 grain 357's) with absolutely no problems. No cracked forcing cones, no endshake, no top strap stretching, and very little forcing cone erosion. Did I mention that almost every one of those thousands of rounds was with jacketed ammo? I don't reload, and rarely if ever shoot lead rounds. I hate cleaning off the lead build up afterward, and personally think that poor cleaning of forcing cones on these revolvers may contribute to any "problem".

I'll repeat again for the benefit of any folks who are new to the K-frame magnums, that in thirty nine years of carrying, qualifying, shooting and generally collecting model 19, and model 66 revolvers, I have yet to see a cracked forcing cone, or stretched top strap for that matter, in person. I have seen photos of cracked forcing cones on the internet, and noted that all of those were on model 19-5's (first variant with a crush fit barrel) and every one of those model 19-5's were filthy dirty, or very poorly cleaned/maintained. IMHO, combine those factors with 125 grain 357 screamers, and you MIGHT have a problem.

Keep your K-frame magnums clean, practice/IDPA with 38's, and 10% 357's and your grandchildren will be enjoying those revolvers.

Oh, before I forget, will anyone who has ever seen or HEARD of a cracked forcing cone on a model 66 please step forward...........<crickets>........yep as I thought. I've never seen or heard about one either.

Quit worrying and enjoy your Combat Magnums. Regards 18DAI.

 

[tipoc]

If you keep the area of the forcing cone clean and free of lead build up you likely won't have a problem. Well after a few thousand rounds you may need a tune up.

tipoc

 

[MacGuffin]

I can't help but to dig this up again. I appologize in advance.

18DAI makes a very good point about the M66s. I hear quite a bit about the problems associated with the forcing cones in the M19s, but the M66s are rarely, if ever, mentioned as having cracked forcing cones due to excessive shooting of light magnum/high velocity loads.

Is it the metal of the gun? Carbon steel vs. stainless steel? Is it the fact that it's easier to see the lead build-up on the stainless steel, and therefore the area gets a better cleaning?

Why?

On a side note, hope everyone had a safe and festive Thanksgiving Day! I must say the food I chowed on was far better than any of the football games on the tube!

Stay safe.

 

[Wickahoney]

This has been covered at least half a dozen times over the years. A search will give a lot of information on the subject.

In a nutshell the problem first appeared in the early 1970s when SuperVel in particular brought out a line of ammo with ligher than normal bullets drivem fast. The cuprits in the Model 19s seemed to be the hot 110 grain bullets and the hot 125 grain bullets. Within a year or so guys were reporting problems with cracked forcing cones.

Prior to this the 158 grain bullet had pretty much been standard in 357s including the Combat Magnum/Model 19.

As an aside the Model 66 didn't exist yet.

In time the general concensus came to be that the difference in the pressure curve and the bullet path of the lighter bullet caused it to strike at the bottom of the forcing cone, where it is the weakest.

If you look at a Model 19 you'll see that the bottom of the forcing cone portion of the barrel is ground off and flattened in order to fit the frame and to clear the ejector rod etc.

So the 19 has a weak point and the light fast bullets impacted at this point. Over time, especially if fed a ssteady diet of the light bullet/high pressure loads, problems could develope.

Many guys have fired a lot of them with no problem. On the other hand some guys had a problem with a very low round count.

The rule of thumb became to pack 357s for duty and to practice with just enough 357s to be proficient. The rest of the time shoot 38s.

I actually worked for a few agencies that issed Model 19s. Some even issued SuperVels. All went back to 158 grain bullets after the "problem" popped up.

I think fewer Model 66s were trashed simply because we knew of the problem by the time they were in general use.

Ross

 

[BillCa]

Everything in Butch's GunBlast article sounds spot-on. When this issue first surfaced (to me) in the late 70's, I had a Model 66 I was "holding" as collateral for a friend. No mention of stainless models cracking. So I turned to an expert - my dad.

I figured 35 years as an aerospace reliability engineer would be enough experience for him to have a reasonable opinion. But, no soap. He did some research. Three days later I stopped at his work at the FMC corporation to talk to their senior metalurgist, "Swede". I got a half-hour lecture on the differences between the tensile strength of gun steels.

The short answer is that the Stainless steel contains chromium which gives it rust resistance and small amounts of other metals like molybdenum, nickel or titanium. Gun steels usually include either nickel or molybdenum for ductility when heated during use. According to Swede the stainless steel is a little more flexible to stress than straight carbon steel. This may explain why the Model 66 was much less prone to breakage.

When it comes to a K-Frame .357 Magnum, my rule of thumb is to use bullets of about 140gr or larger whenever possible and no more than 1300 fps. The original Remington 125g loading was "advertised" at 1500fps (or more) from a 6-inch barrel. Current loads clock 1450fps from a 4-inch barrel. They may have changed the powder but the effects will still be similar with the shorter bullet.

 

[MacGuffin]

Ross and BillCA,

Thanks for the input. I appreciate both perspectives on why the Model 66s might have averted the forcing cone problem brought on by the lighter/high velocity loads.

Interesting takes on one of my all time favorite guns!

 

[Wickahoney]

Mac: It may well be that the differences in the two steels is also an issue. While not a metalurgest I do know that when they first started building the Model 60 and then the Model 66 they (S&W) had some production problems related to the stainless steel being "gummy" and not machining cleanly.

So there are odvious difference between the carbon steel and stainless steel guns.

While the Model 66 was "introduced" in 1970 I do know they were pretty scarce early On. I had the first one in the department and that was 1974!!!

Ross

 

[Lubbock Louie]

from 18DAI
Oh, before I forget, will anyone who has ever seen or HEARD of a cracked forcing cone on a model 66 please step forward...................yep as I thought. I've never seen or heard about one either.

I have one that I am going to report to S & W tomorrow.

 

[panamajack310]

I just cracked my forcing cone on my model 19 about 2 months ago I was using 158 grain bullets....It has taken me a month to find a barrel..the only 2.5" nickle barrel in the USA...costing me $175.00 for it to boot....just to save a gun.

 

[july1952]

Check out the FAQ thread at the beginning of this section. Scroll down a few pages and you'll see a long entry on this subject.

 

[Poohgyrr]

I hope my 4" M19-3 (bought used a few years ago) continues to hold up as well as it has all these years. My primary practice load is 158 gr LSWCers handloaded to about 3/4 full power (using current manuals). Carry load is Winchesters 145 gr Silvertip.

The original loadings, chron'd and published folks, would be interesting out of carbine length barrels.....

This is a sweet .357. If the forcing cone ever goes south, I don't know which "fixit" I want - a new 686 (WOW!!) or the barrel (how much? - WOW!)

I like the new .357s, but the K frames remain favorites...

 

[18DAI]

Lubbock Louie - I'm very interested in any details on that 66 with the cracked forcing cone.

What dash number is it?
How many rounds through it?
What ammo was being used when you discovered the crack?

Do you have any pics? Did the crack form in the 6 o'clock position as with the 19's?

Regards 18DAI.

 

[GeoMonkey]

Just curious,

Has anyone tried "plating" or other coating in the top-frame area to keep the flame cutting in that area to a minimum?

I now have a New/Old stock model 19-6 and hope to keep it from self-destruction, while still being able to shhot it monthly.

I mainly use my own lead bullet 158grn SWC reloads (around 1,100FPS).