125gr XTP and Win 231 for 357mag

[BuckeyeS&W]

I need input on a good load for carry for my S&W 340 sc. I was thinking that a faster powder like Win 231 with 125 gr. XTP would work with a lightweight,short barrel J frame. I want to use 357 brass and I know they aren't pleasant to shoot out of an air weight J frame but I want a good round for carry not target practice. I was thinking of starting with 7.5 grs of 231.

 

[scooter123]

it will probably make a useable load but IMO 231 is just too fast for a true Magnum, even with a 1 7/8 inch barrel. I would suggest that you load with Accurate #5. I've found that a 10.0 grain charge of # 5 makes for a very accurate and relatively low flash load from my 4 inch 620.

BTW, on July 5 I stopped in at the Fin in Ashland on my way home from Virginia and they had at least 10 pounds of #5 on the shelf. Would have picked some up but really didn't need any more so I spent the funds on Win 296 for my 357 Magnum Rifle and 300 Blackout loads. Note, by using US 20 and 250 to get to I-77 I save 30 miles on my trips to visit my sister in Lexington, VA and get to drive by the Fin twice every time I make the trek.

 

[BuckeyeS&W]

Thanks scooter123 I don't have any Accurate #5 at this time but I do have some HS-6 which is right next to #5 on burn rate chart I might give it a try. Powders I do have now are BE-86,Titegroup,700X,Bullseye which the last three are faster than # 5 or HS-6. I also have some Longshot,2400,and Win 296 but these are slower and better for my heavy 158gr longer barrel loads. I'm about 1 1/2 hours from Canton Fin Fur Feather been there a few times really nice store I heard Ashland store is bigger and better.

 

[Rule3]

The powder that gives the best velocity out of a long barrel will do the same in a short barrel.

A slower powder will work better. With a alloy gun you live with the consequences!

Win 231/HP38 will work but as mentioned will not be your best choice for a full magnum load.

2400, HS6 or similar.

 

[fredj338]

As noted, you aren't getting highest vel with faster powders, you just run out of pressure room. You can get close to the slower powders in a shorter bbl, by using medium burners like unique up thru hs6. You will also get less blast & flash vs the slower powders.

 

[alwslate]

You can work up to a maximum charge of 8.5 grs of 231 and although
you probably won't get full 357 magnum velocity the 231 loads will be
a lot more pleasant to fire out of your short barrel than twice as much
slow burning powder loads. Of the powders you have I would also try
Longshot. It gives good velocity with much less blast than 2400 or 296.

 

[BB57]

The powder that gives the best velocity out of a long barrel will do the same in a short barrel.

A slower powder will work better. With a alloy gun you live with the consequences!

Win 231/HP38 will work but as mentioned will not be your best choice for a full magnum load.

2400, HS6 or similar.

Where do people come up with these ideas?

In 38 years of reloading I have not found actual load development and chronograph data to bear this theory out in a cartridge like the .357 Magnum.

For example, during load development a few months ago for a 3" SP101 in .357 Magnum I found the following results:

125 gr XTP, 19.5 gr Win 296
10 shot string
Mean Velocity = 1132 fps
Standard Deviation = 35.49

125 gr XTP, 9.0 gr Unique
10 shot string
Mean Velocity = 1296 fps
Standard Deviation = 17.69 fps

It's also impressively accurate in both my Model 60 and SP101:

In both revolvers, 25 yard accuracy is in the 2" range

-----

Both loads were increased incrementally to the same point where the cases became slightly sticky on ejection, suggesting similar peak pressures.

The load with Unique was not only 164 fps faster, but it also had an SD half as great as the Win 296 load.

These results are not an oddity either, I've had similar results in my 3" Model 60 and my various 2.125" Model 60.

My conclusion, based on objective real world load development and chronograph data is that a medium burning powder like Unigue (only very slightly slower than Win 231/HP38) will give you more velocity and greater consistency in a short barrel .357 Magnum.

In my experience loading for .357 Magnum revolvers in 2.125", 3", 4" and 6" lengths, the .357 magnum isn't efficient with slow powders in barrels under 6" in length, and in the 2-3" barrels a slow powder is a very counter productive choice costing you velocity.

Subjectively, I've noted that shooting slow burning spherical ball powders in short barrel .357 Magnum revolvers will almost always pelt you with unburnt bits of powder, along with providing muzzle blast that is the scale equivalent of a 16" naval gun.

The flow of unburnt/still burning spherical ball powders through the forcing cone and cylinder gap of a revolver is also a significant factor in accelerated erosion of the forcing cone, particularly with shorter bullets.

Finally, in a revolver that is both short barreled and light, you'll find yourself generating extra recoil along with the loss in velocity as you are launching twice as much powder, which exits the barrel at about 3 times the velocity of the projectile, generating a lot more recoil than just 9-10 more grains of bullet weight would create.

----

In conclusion, I can't think of a worse possible load choice for a short barrel .357 Magnum than a 125 gr XTP using a slow spherical ball powder like Win 296/H110. 2400 is a little better, in part because it performs a little better with reduced loads than Win 296/H110, but not much.

Where 2400 shines in a .357 Magnum is with heavy bullets in 6" or longer barrels.

HS 6 isn't as far off the mark, but in a short barrel, Win 231/HP38 or Unique are better choices.

 

[BuckeyeS&W]

I need to thank everyone for help and add that I'm not looking for a full out Magnum load ,just something that will expand the 125gr XTP and get the job done. I would like a little more than a .38 + P that will let the bullet perform and be able to get follow up shots if needed.
I have shot everything from .38 special target loads to a few of my hot Win 296 loads ,not nice,I know how to handle my 340sc. I used it for recertification of my Ohio CCW with .38 +P loadings.
I always thought barrel length made a difference in choosing a good powder and recipe for an effective load.

 

[OKFC05]

I'm not looking for a full out Magnum load ,just something that will expand the 125gr XTP and get the job done. I would like a little more than a .38 + P that will let the bullet perform and be able to get follow up shots if needed.

125gr HP over 7.5gr 231 in .357 case has been my standard load for a model 65 for over 30 years. However, since the Speer short barrel bullet came out, I have found it to expand more reliably than a standard HP. It essentially duplicates the Speer .357 short barrel .357 commercial load.
It is less impressive than my 296 .357 loads I use in an 8" barrel hunting gun, but you have a better chance of being able to see and hear after shooting the 231 load in a short barrel!!

 

[PPCSHOOTER]

YOU ARE MAKING A FINE SELECTION WITH THE 231 POWDER. 7.5 GR SHOULD GIVE YOU ABOUT 1200FPS FROM YOUR 2" BARREL., JP

 

[BB57]

I need to thank everyone for help and add that I'm not looking for a full out Magnum load ,just something that will expand the 125gr XTP and get the job done. I would like a little more than a .38 + P that will let the bullet perform and be able to get follow up shots if needed.
I have shot everything from .38 special target loads to a few of my hot Win 296 loads ,not nice,I know how to handle my 340sc. I used it for recertification of my Ohio CCW with .38 +P loadings.
I always thought barrel length made a difference in choosing a good powder and recipe for an effective load.

That's the same goal I had in developing my .357 Magnum loads.

I backed off a half grain from the "slightly sticky extraction" load listed above. A .357 Magnum case with a 125 gr XTP and 8.5 grains of Unique gives 1243 fps in a 3" revolver, which is a couple hundred fps over a .38 +P load, but still readily controllable and shootable with decent grips in a steel frame J-Magnum revolver or the similar sized but slightly heavier SP101.

(I can't locate my 2.125" data for the load, but I'll post it later if I find it.)

The .357 Magnum velocity of 1243 fps compares to a .38 +P load using the same 125 gr XTP and 7.5 grains of IMR 800X which generates 1030 fps in a 3" barrel and 951 fps in a 2.125" barrel.

 

[PPCSHOOTER]

SORRY I GOT DISTRACTED AND CLICKED TWICE

 

[Rule3]

Where do people come up with these ideas?

Not and "idea" it's physics and fact. Far more research and load tests than yours have confirmed it. Use and believe what you wish.

 

[STORMINORMAN]

Occasionally a question gets an answer one can really use!

125gr HP over 7.5gr 231 in .357 case has been my standard load for a model 65 for over 30 years. However, since the Speer short barrel bullet came out, I have found it to expand more reliably than a standard HP. It essentially duplicates the Speer .357 short barrel .357 commercial load.
It is less impressive than my 296 .357 loads I use in an 8" barrel hunting gun, but you have a better chance of being able to see and hear after shooting the 231 load in a short barrel!!

Now this is an answer that one can really use. And a suggestion for an improvement as well: doesn't really get any better than this, IMHO!

Thanks!

 

[Rule3]

This topic comes up a lot. Using a snubby 357 Magnum.

I honestly think there is a point of dimensioning returns. For a short range self defense purpose, is the extra blast and recoil worth it.??

Going from a good load to a max load and gaining say 100 FPS is necessary or worth it?? You can only get so much velocity out of a short barrel so why make it brutal to shoot?

A good 38+P with the right bullet is just as effective at less than 10 feet and you have more of a chance for a follow up shot. Load a 357 with the short barrel bullet at a medium speed and it should be just fine.

Having shot FBI "Loads" in 39 special from a alloy gun those alone are brutal. The hottest 357 Mag is even worse.

Bottom line, a short barrel lighter bullet with a medium load should be more than sufficient.

See the duplicate BB thread.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloading/91534-duplicating-buffalo-bore-fbi-load.html

 

[BB57]

Not and "idea" it's physics and fact. Far more research and load tests than yours have confirmed it. Use and believe what you wish.

Show me some hard data, otherwise it doesn't exist.

The bore expansion ratio in a short barred .357 isn't sufficient to get anywhere near peak efficiency from a large charge of a slow burning powder.

 

[Nevada Ed]

You just need to see where a heavy load of w231 with a heavy crimp shoots in your weapon.

It is one of the most accurate powders with a XTP that I have loaded along with its twin CFE.

1245 fps is plenty for a SD loading ...........
you don't have to have 1450 fps to stop a problem.

Good loading.

 

[Rule3]

Show me some hard data, otherwise it doesn't exist.

The bore expansion ratio in a short barred .357 isn't sufficient to get anywhere near peak efficiency from a large charge of a slow burning powder.

Speer, Hornady and Lyman have been doing this a lot longer and with more experts and more tests than any of us.

Go to Speer manual #14 page 896 for a 135 grain SB bullet in 357 Mag 2.5" M 19

Highest velocity was obtained with the slower powders AA 9, H110, 2400, PP, 296 Unique. Tests will vary depending on everything such as powder lot, primer, date, time, altitude, temp etc.

AA 9 is close enough in the burn rate to be classified as a slow powder with H110 and 2400

There are many others you can look up. Any manual will show the slower powders yield higher velocity regardless of the barrel length.

Slower powders show the same relationship in 38 +P and in high pressure semi autos like 9mm and 40 SW

Why then are AA 7 , AA 5 and HS 6 the highest velocity in a 38 sp +P 135 gr SB +P from a 2" gun

Why are velocities higher with slow powder in the 10 MM or the 40 SW and 9MM??

In my second post I really do not think it all means a hill of beans, The extra velocity from a maximum 357 mag load in a snub nose is hardly worth the blast and recoil for SD at 10 feet or less.

This is all about velocity nothing about accuracy at 10 feet