145 Grain Winchester Silver Tips in Model 19?

[Vanilla Gorilla]

I'll admit that I like the 145 grain load, and although I've only had "range time" with it, it shoots well enough that I've taken it in the woods with me many times in a Model 19 with six inch tube.

What got me "turned on" to them was back in the 1980's when the Georgia State Patrol was still carrying stainless S&W 66's (before they went to the 4505/4506) and the stories of the "effectiveness" by many officers that had to use it. However, one night an officer emptied a cylinder into a very portly man hopped up on PCP who was on top of him- and it didn't even faze the assailant (as the story was relayed to me). That night was the end of issue of the Silvertip ammunition to the GSP...so I am told.

I fathom that no hollowpoint ammunition may work as designed if the barrel is placed directly.

Sounds suspiciously like the case of South Carolina Trooper Mark Coates. Was shot in the armpit by a very large attacker with a .22 handgun. He fired 5 or 6 Silvertips into his assailant, none of which penetrated to vitals. Trooper Coates died on the scene, and his attacker lived to go to trial.

The video is available of the incident, but it can be a bit disturbing for some to watch.

 

[hicap38]

Model 19 and hot loads be aware

Fed a steady diet of hot mag loads the mod 19 has a nasty habit of splitting forcing cones that is one reason S&W went to the L frame it will handle those loads much better, just my experience take it for what it is worth

 

[Wayne M]

I'm trying to remember because its been back in the '80's and although I've got the FBI's reenactment it's been years since I watched it. I believe the "Miami FBI Shootout" involving Silvertips failing to penetrate was one of the reasons we got bullets with increased penetration(like "Xtreme Terminal Penetration") in components as well as loaded ammo from almost every manufacturer. Lots of things were done wrong and even more went wrong that day and the penetration problems with the Silvertip were not problems at all: it did exactly what it was supposed to do(one bad guy was sideways shot in the shoulder and the bullet didn't make it through and into the chest cavity). The Bureau went into high gear on ammo search and soon after started carrying the 10MM S&W auto(which didn't last with them all that long either). Anyway....the Silvertip is a quick opening, moderate penetration 357 which with a good solid hit will work just about as well as anything but just like everything else there ain't no guarantees. I'd use it without fear of damage to your gun and feel as safe as with anything except maybe the Indianapolis PD's old "magic bullet," the 125 gr JHP Magnum loaded right to the hilt. I think they used Remington. Could be hard on the K frame machinery though. Definately hard on the K frame SHOOTER if you're going to use lots of it.

 

[Erich]

Wayne, the FBI guns in Miami were throwing .38 +P, not the round that is the subject of this thread.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm

 

[Texas Star]

Wayne, the FBI guns in Miami were throwing .38 +P, not the round that is the subject of this thread.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm

The 9mm autos used did employ Silvertips, 115 grain. A .357 145 grain Silvertip might have penetrated better and killed the perp. It was not only heavier, I suspect that it's constructured more strongly than the 9mm version.

I thought it was impressive that the agent (Mireles) who killed one crook used the .38 lead HP. It was good marksmanship that did the job as much as the load that he used.

T-Star
P.S. I've never seen what ammo the bad guys used. It seems to have been pretty effective.

 

[681ismyfavorite]

getting off the tpoic, the 115 gr. STHP used in that shooting did exactly what it was supposed to do.

had they wanted a deeper penetrating round the 115gr. STHP should not have been it.

 

[Wayne M]

Thanks for the reminder guys, like I said....been a long time. Guess I'd better get the tape out!!

 

[Erich]

TexasStar, we weren't talking about 9x19 . . .

 

[Texas Star]

Sounds suspiciously like the case of South Carolina Trooper Mark Coates. Was shot in the armpit by a very large attacker with a .22 handgun. He fired 5 or 6 Silvertips into his assailant, none of which penetrated to vitals. Trooper Coates died on the scene, and his attacker lived to go to trial.

The video is available of the incident, but it can be a bit disturbing for some to watch.

This must have been a remarkable case. I know of one M-66 used with 158 grain JHP's (type wasn't stated) that was used by a game warden to kill a grizzly bear that had him down. One hit the heart, and he was saved.

That must have been a really large man, and the PCP was probably a factor.

Where can the video be viewed?

T-Star

 

[Texas Star]

TexasStar, we weren't talking about 9x19 . . .

Erich-

Well, we were discussing that fight, and at least one 9mm was used, with Silvertips.

I know you referred to the .38 ammo. I was just saying that if the Silvertips used had been from a .357, the results might have been far better than a lighter 9mm Silvertip. I understand that one felon would have been killed had a 9mm Silvertip penetrated just a bit further. The hit would have been fatal, given its placement.

T-Star

 

[BreakerDan]

The 1980s were certainly the days of the "wunder nine." I think it is interesting that up against assault rifles and determined opponents that the old 38 revolver ended it all.
It is not what you use but how.

I still think that a standard pressure 9mm silvertip up against a car door and still getting the 6-8" penetration it supposedly did was still pretty impressive for the design of the Silvertip then. I just wonder if they all (FBI) had been using 357 revolvers with full power
ammo if things wouldnt have turned out better. It still looked like 38+p LSWCHP was better than 9mm. Can't beat a heavy LSWCHP that is inherently more accurate anyway. just ,y 2 cents