1902 (I think) 2nd Ch in need of grips.

[RevolverJockey]

I have what I am pretty sure is a Model of 1902 2nd model. This would line up with what is in Roy's book - S/N is 258XX. The last patent date is Dec 17 01. I am looking for a correct pair of grips which the ones in the photo are obviously not. In the book it talks about "SW" monogramed checkered hard rubber or checkered walnut grips. I have a 1905 with recessed medallions and a more modern 1949 or model 10, but I don't think the grips are like either of these. Can someone post a picture of the proper grips and maybe point me in the direction of where I could obtain a set? This is for a friend who is not a collector or shooter - this was a family heirloom and It pains me to see it not right. A well used set or repro rubber set would be fine. Thanks in advance.
Lee

 

[DCWilson]

That's a straight model of 1902, or M&P Second Model. It is not even a 1902/first change, and there is actually no such thing as a 1902/second change. (The "change" designation identifies a modification within a model ID.)

You want K-frame hard rubber stocks for your 1902, or possibly walnut stocks with concave tops on them. Here's a photo of my 1902/first with the walnut stocks. These are not original to this gun, but they are age appropriate.

 

[jhvaughan2]

Here is one I just picked up. It is numbered before the official range of second models (20960) but is it a second. These stocks are numbered to it.

 

[RevolverJockey]

That's a straight model of 1902, or M&P Second Model. It is not even a 1902/first change, and there is actually no such thing as a 1902/second change. (The "change" designation identifies a modification within a model ID.)

You want K-frame hard rubber stocks for your 1902, or possibly walnut stocks with concave tops on them. Here's a photo of my 1902/first with the walnut stocks. These are not original to this gun, but they are age appropriate.

I updated the original post. Didn't mean to put 2nd change it is early. If you have Roy's book, page 160 I believe is where they are listed. I don't have the book in front of me but it lists a Model of 1902 second model with a 1902-1903 date of manufacture with serial numbers ranging from 20kish to 33kish.
Lee

 

[RevolverJockey]

Something else I noticed. The barrel is labelled SW 38 MIL. This cylinder does not appear to be chambered for 38 SW. Any chance this is chambered for 38 Colt but not labelled as such? A 38 SPL will fit, but a 38 SW will not. It is as if the case is just a bit too wide.
Lee

 

[DCWilson]

.38 S&W is an older, fatter cartridge that began to slide into obsolescence with the introduction of the .38 Special. You can think of .38 Special as a slightly longer .38 Colt. .38 MIL is a way for S&W to say you can shoot either round without actually putting Colt's name on the barrel. You will also see these early M&Ps labeled with "38 S&W SPECIAL & US SERVICE CTGS." The same message is being sent.

Within a few years Colt gave up producing revolvers exclusively for .38 Colt and put out guns that would chamber .38 Special.

 

[RevolverJockey]

It doesn't say anything about this in Roys book but I found this in the standard catalog of Smith and Wesson and the Blue Book. There are no USN markings, no JAB and no anchor, but the SN is on the front of the tang, the barrel is marked "S&W 38 MIL." and there is an "S" with an arrow through it on the yoke, under the yoke, barrel flat, cylinder face and the inside of the sideplate. SN is 25835. Can anyone shed any light on this?

 

[beagleye]

That's a cool gun.

Maybe it was headed for the navy and got sidetracked before it got the USN marks. I think it needs a letter.

 

[mikepriwer]

Post a picture of the butt, showing the serial number and anything
else that is on it. Also post pictures of the hammer and trigger.
They look blued.

The serial number is right in the middle of the US Navy contract, and
those guns were caliber-marked .38 Military. My question about the
hammer and trigger relate to my first observation that the gun has
been refinished.

The following are two pages from Neal & Jinks, showing pictures of
the butt, and a good description of the gun. Your gun was a 1902
Navy. The S with the arrow was part of the original marking.

If your gun does not have all the butt markings as described, then
they were removed when it was refinished.

Regards, Mike Priwer

 

[RevolverJockey]

Thanks for all the replies. It was headed for a letter regardless with 3 others I have been meaning to send in.
Lee

 

[RevolverJockey]

There could be some truth to this.

Maybe it was headed for the navy and got sidetracked before it got the USN marks. I think it needs a letter.

I spoke to Roy yesterday and he confirmed what we knew, it was a Navy gun no doubt and sent to the USN in Brooklyn. I am sending this one for a letter.

I assumed these guns were built and sent through some sort of Navy supply channel accepted upon arrival much as they are now. When I was in the Navy I actually picked up a fully assembled M60 MK 43 Machine gun at the base post office sent registered mail.

However, Roy said in 1902 the Army/Navy inspectors were two blocks down the road and came over to inspect, semi oversee assembly and accept these revolvers. He said a long lunch, a smoke break, who knows what the distraction was but it isn't a sure thing the markings were removed, they simply might not have ever been there. If 25, 835 (Navy No. 1835) happened to come down the line and John A Bell happened to not be there it might have been missed. This is why the batches were even thousands 1001-2000 equate to Navy No. 0001-1000 etc. They simply assigned their numbers to the numbers smith had already assigned.

The other thing he said that rings true is that they were not concerned about collectors or what a gun would be worth years later. They were making guns for money and Inspectors were doing a job assigned to them. At the end of the day, guns were built, crated up and shipped out, we are lucky to have the records we do. Always good to have a good story to go along with an old work horse.

Lee

 

[mikepriwer]

The gun does have the S - arrow marking all over, so someone did
that. I wonder what would have happened in the S&W shipping
department, when they were packing up the guns for the Navy,
if it letters as being shipped to the Navy. I also wonder what would
have happeded in the Navy yard when the guns arrived, and some
did not have the proper butt markings.

When you get a pair of proper wood grips, if they overhand the
butt noticeably, then that could be an indication that the markings
had been milled off.

Regards, Mike Priwer

 

[RevolverJockey]

That it will. I sent off for the letter yesterday and also for the grips we had mentioned in PM. I'll email you pictures once I get them installed.
Lee