1905 4th- Unusual Loss of Blue

[smith17]

I was recently able to handle this 5" Model of 1905, 4th Change in .38 S&W Special and noticed some things that I thought were unusual regarding the wear of the blue finish. It is serial numbered in the 360 thousands with all matching parts, including the near perfect stocks. As you can see, there is significant loss of finish all around the barrel, not just near the muzzle. There is significant loss of finish on the frame, both sides, particularly in front of the cylinder around the barrel pin and right behind the cylinder release. There are some nicks on the rear edge of the cylinder, see pic. Nothing out of the ordinary so far for a well used gun. The strange part is that the cylinder has only minimal wear on the forward edge, all the way around and the rest of the finish on the cylinder is near perfect. There is only the faintest turn line. I think it unlikely that the cylinder has been refinished as the blue matches the rest of the remaining blue on the frame perfectly. The cartridge chambers as well as the bore are perfect. The stocks are near perfect. Under the stocks are the original machine marks and the finish is perfect. There is no rust anywhere. If you closed your eyes and rubbed around on the gun, you would swear that there was not a blemish on it, it is that smooth. The strain screw was torqued down so tightly that it was difficult to back off.
Anyway, something that I thought might be of interest and generate some theories. If the pics end up being too large, I still haven't defeated the new Photobucket resizing system.
Ed

 

[smith17]

I was recently able to handle this 5" Model of 1905, 4th Change in .38 S&W Special and noticed some things that I thought were unusual regarding the wear of the blue finish. It is serial numbered in the 360 thousands with all matching parts, including the near perfect stocks. As you can see, there is significant loss of finish all around the barrel, not just near the muzzle. There is significant loss of finish on the frame, both sides, particularly in front of the cylinder around the barrel pin and right behind the cylinder release. There are some nicks on the rear edge of the cylinder, see pic. Nothing out of the ordinary so far for a well used gun. The strange part is that the cylinder has only minimal wear on the forward edge, all the way around and the rest of the finish on the cylinder is near perfect. There is only the faintest turn line. I think it unlikely that the cylinder has been refinished as the blue matches the rest of the remaining blue on the frame perfectly. The cartridge chambers as well as the bore are perfect. The stocks are near perfect. Under the stocks are the original machine marks and the finish is perfect. There is no rust anywhere. If you closed your eyes and rubbed around on the gun, you would swear that there was not a blemish on it, it is that smooth. The strain screw was torqued down so tightly that it was difficult to back off.
Anyway, something that I thought might be of interest and generate some theories. If the pics end up being too large, I still haven't defeated the new Photobucket resizing system.
Ed

 

[gjamison]

blood?

 

[john traveler]

I agree with gjamison's guess. If the blued surface was briefly (a couple hours) in contact with some salty bodily fluid (blood, urine, sweat) it would result in the blue removal seen. Not long enough to rust and pit, but long enough to remove the blue. Cleaning off the fluid would stop the blue removal and rusting, of course, and subsequent oiling would preserve the finish loss.

 

[mikepriwer]

I would say that the cylinder has either been redone, or replaced. Whatever it
was that happened to the gun , surely must have happened to the cylinder, as
well. It just doesn't seem possible that the blue could be missing everywhere
on the gun, and areas right next to the cylinder, but the cylinder remains
untouched ? I doubt it.

Later, Mike Priwer

 

[smith17]

Mike:
I thought that might be the case but I couldn't figure why someone would redo just the cylinder of a very common fixed sight gun. If it was done by a shade tree gunsmith, it seems that the whole gun would have been refinished. The cylinder is numbered to the frame so, unless the factory replaced it and renumbered the new cylinder (and there are no factory re-do marks on the grip frame), it seems unlikely that it was replaced. The owner knows no history of the gun. There is substantial wear all under the trigger guard and the front/back straps have no finish left. I have a feeling it was handled a good bit, maybe in a holster with other stocks on it at the time.

I had heard of blood removing the blue but wonder why it didn't get on the cylinder if that is what it was.
Ed

 

[dbarale]

Maybe the cylinder was removed for cleaning or some kind of work when something was spilled on the gun?

Interestingly, look at this little guy from amnother thread, pretty similar..

 

[j38]

Could some step in manufacturing have been fouled up so that the bluing on the barrel and frame didn't take properly?

Just guessing, Jerry

 

[H Richard]

j38, that's just what I was thinking. Is it a possibility of heat treating the frame & barrel and it got a little too treated? That might cause the blueing to not "take" properly? I do not own any like these, but have seen them.

 

[Sebago Son]

This is a classic example of "Flaking".... early finishing techniques didn't work nearly as well with Nickel Steel as they did with mild steel with more carbon content.

Hardened Cylinders held blue better as their mechanical & phsyical properties were chanced via the Hardnening Process...

 

[mikepriwer]

Ed

At the end of the day, we will not know what happened here.

Yes - the factory could have replaced the cylinder - maybe it blew up -
and renumbered it to the old serial number, and not stamped it with
the service department marks. Roy tells the story of a gun that was
damaged beyond repair - the factory sent a new one, with the old serial
number !

If that frame and barrel blue loss are the result of holster wear,
I can't imagine how the cylinder escaped that same wear.

As to that blue loss being due to flaking, I don't have enough
information about that. I do know that the early 1899's and 1902's
frequently exhibit what looks like flaking , but what shows up in those
areas is a plum-to-brown color. As far as I know, that early bluing
process was not a corrosive process, but a baking process in the presence
of bone matter, that yielded carbon. That early process was changed
to a salt-bath process; different salts produce different tones of color,
and that is a corrosion process. There may have been other process's as
well, and I don't know what was used for guns from this era.

Typically, we often see cylinders that are very plum-colored, and we
believe that it was due to an improper bluing process for that heat-
treated steel. I don't see anything in these pictures that looks
plum-colored.

Whenever one part of a gun shows radically different wear patterns than
the rest of the gun, I get suspicious that the part is not original.
I don't know what else to say.

Later, Mike Priwer

 

[crashalot2]

Originally posted by dbarale:
Maybe the cylinder was removed for cleaning or some kind of work when something was spilled on the gun?

Interestingly, look at this little guy from amnother thread, pretty similar..

this one is mine and I think navel jelly was used on it to remove some rust.

 

[barnside]

Smith17

I have a 1905, made around 1921, with the idential blue loss on the sideplate and left side of the frame. The gun is in almost unfired condition. The cylinder is mint, with no turn marks. The last owner kept it in a gun rug. He did not notice that someone spilled a solvent on the gun rug, and it soaked through to the gun. For some reason, it did not touch the cyliner. I had debated trying to get at least the sideplate reblued. But, I decided to heck with it, and just leave it as is.

 

[smith17]

barnside:
That is a logical reason, especially since you know what caused it. That may very well be the reason behind this one's condition. Thanks.
Ed

 

[barnside]

Of course, blood stains sounds a lot more interesting than an accident with household cleaning supplies.

 

[Joe W]

AS long as we are all guessing I'll take a shot. I like what "Barnside" says except, as the top strap also displays the bluing loss, my guess is that the cylinder had been removed and the gun placed in storage seperate from the cylinder. Maybe for safty reasons, who knows. One thing for sure, that cylinder was not on the gun when the "accident" happened.

 

[Bell Charter Oak Holsters]

The finish or what's left remaining of the finish on the frame, looks like the "Midnight Black" applied by the factory on some (I think the second production run) of the British Service Revolvers. Almost like spray paint? The early one's (pre WWII) were blued, the next were Midnight Black and the rest were phosphate coated parkerized. I'm away from my references at the moment, and I can't recall the serial number ranges or if yours falls in that range. Anyway, just another theory.