How Unusual Is This M&P 1905 4th Change?

[OutAtTheEdge]

Okay folks, I'd really appreciate some input on this one. I picked this up in '06 and just got around to getting it lettered. This is a .38 Military & Police Model of 1905 Fourth Change, nickel finish with standard service sights on a 5" barrel, with a square butt frame and checked walnut stocks.

Looking at the SCSW 3rd Edition (don't own the 4th, now waiting to get the 5th) description of this model, I note first that the square butt is "scarce". Then, further down, the authors state that "Target models have been observed without any frame markings whatsoever (including the S&W trademark normally on the sideplate) except for serial numbers. Otherwise will be marked "Made in U.S.A." on the frame's right side." This gun is likewise devoid of the logo and made-in-USA frame markings, but is is clearly a service model, not target.

I've done some looking in books and online over the years, but I've never seen another without the frame markings, service OR target. I obviously haven't seen them all, or as many as lots of you have, but I have looked.

Then of course, there is the condition of the gun, which may not be absolutely perfect, but is still, IMHO, breathtaking.

Oh, and one other thing I found personally interesting. This is only the third Smith I've had lettered, and the second one that turns out to have been shipped to Hibbard, Spencer, Bartlett and Company in Chicago. Small world, huh?

So, I'd like to hear any input you guys may have to offer. Anyone have or had one like it? Any new info on the unusual lack of frame markings? Anything else?

 

[OutAtTheEdge]

A Few More Pics

 

[Lee Barner]

that is a beautiful example of an M&P from the teens. the grip medallions will clean up nice with a pencil eraser. thanks for sharing. Lee

 

[JP@AK]

Well, first of all, the SCSW is mistaken on the point you quoted. The round butt became more scarce in the 1920s, not the square butt. The fixed sight, square butt, 5" barrel variant was very common. So, to answer your question, it isn't unusual at all.

That said, the style stocks on your revolver were being phased out in 1920, when yours shipped. I'd guess this M&P was probably assembled in 1919, when those were still the only stocks available for that model. It also falls into the range that still lacked the monogram after the company emerged from the government takeover during WWI.

Anyway, it is a nice piece, especially with the intact nickel finish. Blue was more common.

Edit: (Forgot one of your questions.) The Made in U.S.A. mark didn't come into use until the spring of 1922.

 

[OutAtTheEdge]

Well, first of all, the SCSW is mistaken on the point you quoted. The round butt became more scarce in the 1920s, not the square butt. The fixed sight, square butt, 5" barrel variant was very common. So, to answer your question, it isn't unusual at all.

That said, the style stocks on your revolver were being phased out in 1920, when yours shipped. I'd guess this M&P was probably assembled in 1919, when those were still the only stocks available for that model. It also falls into the range that still lacked the monogram after the company emerged from the government takeover during WWI.

Anyway, it is a nice piece, especially with the intact nickel finish. Blue was more common.

Edit: (Forgot one of your questions.) The Made in U.S.A. mark didn't come into use until the spring of 1922.

Thanks Jack! It is pretty, isn't it?

 

[handejector]

Those medallions are made of brass with a gold wash on them. I do not recommend a pencil eraser to clean them. Lay them flat on a table and put a drop of oil on them to soften the gunk. Let it sit a day or two. gently rub with an oily Q-tip. If gunk remains, try acetone gently on a q-tip. Fingernail polish remover is acetone usually if you don't have any around.

 

[OutAtTheEdge]

Those medallions are made of brass with a gold wash on them. I do not recommend a pencil eraser to clean them. Lay them flat on a table and put a drop of oil on them to soften the gunk. Let it sit a day or two. gently rub with an oily Q-tip. If gunk remains, try acetone gently on a q-tip. Fingernail polish remover is acetone usually if you don't have any around.

Thanks Lee!

 

[DWalt]

I cannot enlarge any of the attached pictures enough to see any details, nor read the letter, but Jack's explanation is likely accurate. Revolvers of the WWI era did not have the S&W logo stamp on the frame. FYI, at that time S&W no longer cataloged your revolver as the Model of 1905, despite what the letter says. It was called simply the .38 Military and Police Model (Square Butt) in S&W literature from around 1915 onward.

 

[OutAtTheEdge]

I cannot enlarge any of the attached pictures enough to see any details,

Not sure if this is an issue with different browsers or platforms or whatever, but try just pausing your cursor over the picture, and it should/could/might open the bigger photo.

 

[4K2022]

The picture of the star,,,
The reason to buy a Smith & Wesson

 

[larryofcc]

Okay folks, I'd really appreciate some input on this one. I picked this up in '06 and just got around to getting it lettered. This is a .38 Military & Police Model of 1905 Fourth Change, nickel finish with standard service sights on a 5" barrel, with a square butt frame and checked walnut stocks.

Looking at the SCSW 3rd Edition (don't own the 4th, now waiting to get the 5th) description of this model, I note first that the square butt is "scarce". Then, further down, the authors state that "Target models have been observed without any frame markings whatsoever (including the S&W trademark normally on the sideplate) except for serial numbers. Otherwise will be marked "Made in U.S.A." on the frame's right side." This gun is likewise devoid of the logo and made-in-USA frame markings, but is is clearly a service model, not target.

I've done some looking in books and online over the years, but I've never seen another without the frame markings, service OR target. I obviously haven't seen them all, or as many as lots of you have, but I have looked.

Then of course, there is the condition of the gun, which may not be absolutely perfect, but is still, IMHO, breathtaking.

Oh, and one other thing I found personally interesting. This is only the third Smith I've had lettered, and the second one that turns out to have been shipped to Hibbard, Spencer, Bartlett and Company in Chicago. Small world, huh?

So, I'd like to hear any input you guys may have to offer. Anyone have or had one like it? Any new info on the unusual lack of frame markings? Anything else?

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I have nearly the identical gun #302321 shipped 6-19. No letter yet. It too is original nickel, 5" or 6" bbl. No frame marks whatsoever. Same stocks. Square butt. Big Larry