1911-perfect or NOT!!!!!!!!!!

[CAJUNLAWYER]

I just got finished enjoying the 1911 thread SIp provided-it is a marvel and I still want one.
but
If I remember correctly, Browning included a grip safety in the 1911 solely due to Government requirements. When he designed the Browning Hi Power from what I read, he used it to tweak te defencied in the design of the 1911, ie the grip safety, the toggle on the barrel to a cam and the bushing arrangement. Ae there any period writings regading this-or just later day musings by gun writers-someone MUST have done some research on this and it would be interesting reading. I had no idea before seeing Sip's thread that the bushing was so complicated compared with just dropping the barrel in the slide from the underside ala say a Sig. Since I have never owned either a 1911 or a Hi Power, I have not had the pleasure of taking down either so I don't know what the differences are regarding the barrel/bushing assembly-but it seems to me that if the Hi Power was meant to be a new and improved 1911-why has no one made one in .45?
Share your knowledge all you 1911 guys.

 

[Markcuda]

I have two Springfield Loaded models, a .45 and a .9mm.
We keep track of the round count, after 1300 in both, they both have been flawless.
Take down is ok with me, one has a allen wrench, the other has a bushing wrench.= one has a one piece guide rod and the other has a two piece.

 

[sonny]

if the Hi Power was meant to be a new and improved 1911-why has no one made one in .45?
Share your knowledge all you 1911 guys.

I

Don't know; never owned a Hi-power. Wayne Novak in W. Va is known to be outstanding gunsmith with Hi-Powers. I used to like the old models that had the long lift-up ramped rear sight that would go up to 500 meters or so. Also had the lanyard ring on bottom of butt. I haven't seen any of these at a gunshow for ten years.
But the whole bushing affair can be complicated. Some early 1911's, on target guns (Gold Cup models, IIRC) had a collett bushing, with fingers, that would flex under slight compression when in the gun and thus provide a tighter fit for accuracy. These fingers were known to get work-handened with use and would occasionally break and tie up the gun. Not a good thing.
Solid bushings are now the norm and are custom fit for accuracy. Often, you must use a barrel bushing wrench to remove them. I custom-order my barrel bushings a bit oversize from EGW (Evolution GunWorks).
link: Welcome to Evolution Gun Works, Inc. He sells them to your specification or just a general recommended oversize as you prefer, so you can fit one to your specific dimensions of barrel and slide, with about 0.001 (slip-fit only) of clearance. This bushing, of course, allows max accuracy at the front of the barrel, but you still have lots of work to do other than that for accurizing. I then use files, sand-paper, 240 grit (IIRC) silicon-carbide grease, etc to fit them to each individual gun. I like mine to be only tight enough (friction-fit) that I can remove them without a wrench. I am no longer a Bullseye shooter, so max accuracy is no longer an issue.
I reco that you buy this book: THE Colt .45 Automatic, A Shop Manual by Jerry Kuhnhausen if you're serious. It will give you everything you want in text, parts diagrams and pictures. It's 5 x 7 paperback; I see it on Amazon for $48.94. The price has gone up a bit since I bought mine a long time ago. Link: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_s...tic+by+jerry+kuhnhausen&sprefix=the+colt+.45+
Good luck.
The .45 Auto is a good battle gun. Remember that the GURU. Colonel Cooper of Gunsite always carried nothing other than his all-steel Combat Commander model with 4 1/4" barrel length.
Wilson and Les Baer are known for good .45's. I've been in Les's shop and talked with him. Never owned his gun, but NONE better. He asks that you shoot his for 500 rounds of commercial ammo before you expect it to be worry free. Never, never a jam after that. He's my first choice. Here is link:
http://www.lesbaer.com/1911s.html
Sonny

 

[sar4937]

I'm pretty sure Browning died before the Hi-power was released, I wonder if it was built as he designed it. If you want a historically correct 1911, but an old one. If you want a modern gun, that will run with the best then buy a 2011 hi-cap with a bull barrel and never look back. If you want a classic keeper, buy a Baer/ Wilson Combat/ Brown. But when you compare the original A1 to a modern 1911, there is no contest.

 

[Texas Star]

I'm pretty sure Browning died before the Hi-power was released, I wonder if it was built as he designed it. If you want a historically correct 1911, but an old one. If you want a modern gun, that will run with the best then buy a 2011 hi-cap with a bull barrel and never look back. If you want a classic keeper, buy a Baer/ Wilson Combat/ Brown. But when you compare the original A1 to a modern 1911, there is no contest.

Browning died in 1926. Dieudonne (sp?) Saive completed the design of the Hi-Power. He later designed the FN-49 and FAL rifles.

T-Star

 

[Mustang51]

In the late 50s, a Canadian company designed a Hi-Power pattern pistol chambered in a proprietary cartridge, .45 NAACO. It was limited to 8 round capacity, and their attempt to sell it to foreign governments was a total flop. I'm looking at it in "The Browning High Power Automatic Pistol" by R. Blake Stevens. It's fat, squat, and ugly...kind of like an 8 year old's attempt to draw a real Hi-Power. I don't know the design and dimensional challenges to converting the pistol to .45ACP, but aesthetically, it just doesn't work. Let's face it, 9mm and the Hi-Power design are just "right" for each other...one of the reasons it's one of the most beautiful pistols ever designed...in my opinion.

 

[CDMead]

but
If I remember correctly, Browning included a grip safety in the 1911 solely due to Government requirements.

Actually the original design just had a grip safety (see Colt model 1905). The military forced Browning to add the frame mounted safety.

 

[Spotteddog]

Beautifully executed pistol Bob!

 

[oldRoger]

It is fairly common for target shooters to have the grip safety pinned. Col. Cooper said that he had never seen a case where a grip safety would have been of any use, and further after considerable reflection he could not imagine a case where on would be useful.
Dependent upon your hand size you may not be able to use the “high thumb” grip because you are not able to maintain inward pressure when the pistol has an extended GS.

The collett bushing which I had on my Colt 70, was a PITA, I think that it was planned to be a cost saving measure compared to the hand fitting necessary for a target barrel/bushing system. IMO it was tight when it didn’t need to be (out of battery) but relatively loose in battery. John Browning would not have been proud.

 

[10-12]

"why has no one made one in .45?"

I have carried both. When the Fabrique Nationale appeared there were plentious amounts of surplus GI 1911's to be had cheap so there was no sense in buying a more expense weapon that is no more potent then the 1911. About the time GI .45's were becoming scarce and a .45 Fabrique Nationale might have had some marketing appeal, everyone wanted a double action.


I have not conducted any extensive research. This is just my opinion from having been around so long. In other words, from being old.

Bill

 

[george minze]

Ask Steve Camp he is a member here. the ultimate authority on BHP's....Novak and Actions by (T) are both very good with them.

 

[R. G. Amos]

I doubt that most people really notice the grip safety when firing a 1911.

 

[sipowicz]

I had no idea before seeing Sip's thread that the bushing was so complicated compared with just dropping the barrel in the slide from the underside ala say a Sig.

Caj....the 1911 is fairly simple to take down and put back together, it just takes some practice...re: the bushing...it's just a matter of sliding it on the right way and turning it the right way...what is usually a bit harder for most is dropping in the slide release without scratching the gun since you have to push it in at just the right angle....I practiced with a playing card under mine until it became second nature.....sure, a SIG, HK or Hi-power are much easier to take down and reassemble, but if you want a 1911, it's still worth it...

 

[Lomax Anderson]

I have two kinds of hand guns....Smith revolvers and 1911's...what else is there?

 

[johngalt]

IMHO the bushing on the 1911 is an asset, not an obsolete design to be avoided. It allows the pistol to be easily tuned by installing a match bushing. It does add an extra challenge to field stripping and reassembly, but it is easy after you've done it once.

Don't understand the aversion to the grip safety. It doesn't affect trigger pull or operation when depressed, and it can't cause a malfunction. There is no down side to having it.

The Swartz firing pin safety (which operates off the grip safety) is a different issue and can be avoided by not getting a 1911 that uses it. I do have a Kimber with it which has never malfunctioned, but it is strictly a target gun.

If you get a model with a full length guide rod, throw it away and replace it with a short GI guide rod and plug. The full length rode makes field stripping more difficult, and is an answer to a question nobody asked.

Ignore the people who say that a 1911 isn't reliable unless you spend $$$ at a gunsmith tweaking. It is every bit as reliable as any other pistol out there. Yes, there are a lot of aftermarket parts and gunsmiths that work on them. That just means they are easily upgradeable to play any game you want. But just because you CAN upgrade it, that does not mean you HAVE to.

 

[Aussie44]

gun.If you get a model with a full length guide rod, throw it away and replace it with a short GI guide rod and plug. The full length rode makes field stripping more difficult, and is an answer to a question nobody asked.

Don't throw them away send them to me,I'll pay the shipping.

Back to the 1911.
Caj, You won't be dissapointed.I love'em and I don't have any other auto but a 1911.I've had 1911's from 1918 ( Real loose and worn)and they would shoot 4 to 5 inches at 25 meters,Bring that back to realistic gunfight distance and you have a winner.Get one

Ken

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

I had no idea before seeing Sip's thread that the bushing was so complicated compared with just dropping the barrel in the slide from the underside ala say a Sig. Since I have never owned either a 1911

That's like saying twisting the door knob at home is so complicated compared to the automatic doors at Walmart. Well... then again...

Regardless of it's flaws... the 1911 is 'perfect'.

 

[Stephen A. Camp]

Hello. One reason that the Hi Power has not been offered in .45 ACP is that the gun itself is dimensionally to small for that length cartridge. It would have to be made in a "jumbo" version for cartridges longer than 9mm or .40 S&W to fit.

During its time as a very common sidearm for the world's militaries, it was plenty popular in its original 9mm chambering so FN saw no need to design a larger version of the pistol when .45 ACP just was not as popular worldwide as the 9x19mm.

Where the .45 ACP was very popular so was the larger 1911-pattern pistol and I believe FN chose not to spend the dollars in R&D for a larger Hi Power to compete against another extremely popular Browning design.

Best.

 

[Frizzman]

1911

I have a 1905 Colt in .45 ACP. The 1905 had no grip safety. It was very different from the 1911. I have owned and shot 1911's for over 40 years and have never had any problems with the grip safety. In earlier times, it was common to pin the GS down. The newer 1911's that come with a bump or wedge to the GS eliminate the problems some have with not activating the safety when needed. There was a lot of griping about the Series 80 firing pin lock but I never had any problems with it.

Field stripping a 1911 is not hard and you will pick it up quickly. I can do it about as easily as stripping down a Glock or M&P, etc. I also like having a bushing that can be tuned. Of course, the first pistol I learned how to field strip was the 1911. I got free lessons from Uncle Sam.

I have a couple of HiPowers and they are nice pistols and about the best in a SA 9mm. The design does seem a bit more refined but not enough to make much of a difference compared to the 1911. Between the two, I prefer the 1911 because of the .45 ACP vs 9mm issue.

Is the 1911 perfect? No, it is not. No mechanical device is perfect but it is an excellent design and I think every serious fan of the handgun should have at least one. I have had many 1911's and the one I carry most these days is a plain, stock, blued Colt Government Model. I have done absolutely nothing to it and it functions 100% and is plenty accurate for serious social interaction. I have some fancier 1911's but the plain Colt GM does the job just as well for me. Get one and get to know it.